Author Topic: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT (Read 37144 times)

rodgertutt · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2011, 11:12:20 AM »

#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER

"Most Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperiled."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #26 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:22:32 AM »

#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.

First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."

Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.

rodgertutt · « **Reply #27 on:** July 26, 2011, 08:45:41 AM »

#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON

"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

rodgertutt · « **Reply #28 on:** July 27, 2011, 11:47:37 AM »

#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER

"Most Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperiled."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #29 on:** July 28, 2011, 08:42:17 AM »

#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.

First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."

Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.

jabcat · « **Reply #30 on:** July 28, 2011, 08:50:31 AM »

wow, strong stuff from hundreds of years ago. sad, actually...

lomarah · « **Reply #31 on:** July 28, 2011, 01:56:12 PM »

It is sad and I can definitely relate to those poor tormented people! (Well not anymore, thanks be to God!!)

sheila · « **Reply #32 on:** July 28, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »

Matt 24;48,49

but suppose that wicked servant says to himself,My Master is delaying...and begins to beat his fellow slaves and drink with the drunkards...

the Master of that servant will come on a day and an hour that he does not expect him,and will cut him to peices and assign him a place

with the hypocrites

Acts 20;29 I KNOW that after I leave savage wolves will come in and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort

the truth,in order to draw away disciples after them.

sheila · « **Reply #33 on:** July 28, 2011, 05:20:17 PM »

God and Christ have counted the cost of raising up the spiritual house of ALL in Adam

Luke 14;28....for if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it,everyone who sees it will ridicule him,saying,

'this fellow began to build and was not able to finish? 1 Peter 5;10 And the GOD OF ALL GRACE WHO CALLED YOU

TO HIS ETERNAL GLORY IN CHRIST,AFTER YOU HAVE SUFFERED A LITTLE WHILE,WILL HIMSELF RESTORE YOU AND

MAKE YOU STRONG,FIRM AND STEADFAST....TO HIM BE THE POWER,FOREVER AND EVER,AMEN!

rodgertutt · « **Reply #34 on:** July 28, 2011, 08:42:54 PM »

#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON

"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

rodgertutt · « **Reply #35 on:** July 29, 2011, 11:55:40 AM »

#18 - A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER

"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.

Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #36 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:58:22 AM »

#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER

"Most Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperiled."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #37 on:** July 31, 2011, 01:58:59 PM »

#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.

First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."

Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.

rodgertutt · « **Reply #38 on:** August 01, 2011, 08:27:20 AM »

#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON

"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

rodgertutt · « **Reply #39 on:** August 02, 2011, 08:38:38 AM »

#18 - A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER

"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.

Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized."

Confident UR Christian · « **Reply #40 on:** August 03, 2011, 04:32:58 AM »

Excellent collection Rodger Tutt!

Thomas Talbott's quote was especially enlightening. I don't think that I'd really thought about the idea that 'eternal punishment' (although this isn't necessarily a very good translation anyway) could just mean punishment with eternal effects, rather than 'eternal punishing'. This makes even more sense with the root of 'kolasis' being 'pruning'; the effects of the pruning are eternal, not the process of pruning. Hence, even making 'aionios' everlasting, when attaching it to kolasis, can still point to UR, with correction with results that last eternally. This gives us leeway even if a person insists on a meaning of 'eternal'.

Also there are good reasons why it should, regardless, not be considered as eternal (i.e. not using aidios), which even further emphasises the temporary nature of such a correction.

Thanks again!

rodgertutt · « **Reply #41 on:** August 03, 2011, 12:25:28 PM »

#19 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON

"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."

PaoloNuevo · « **Reply #42 on:** August 03, 2011, 02:24:34 PM »

Quote from: rodgertutt on August 03, 2011, 12:25:28 PM

#19 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON

"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #43 on:** August 04, 2011, 10:42:41 AM »

#20 - THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT

"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "

rodgertutt · « **Reply #44 on:** August 05, 2011, 08:35:29 AM »

#21 - THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON

"Some say that if it can be proved that the punishment of the wicked will have an end, the same argument will prove that the life of the righteous will also end. But this is too much to take for granted on such a premise. Aionios does not of itself indicate either the limited or unlimited duration of anything, but its duration in each case depends on the nature of that to which it is applied.

Colored glasses give color to whatever men look at, and it is difficult for many to divest themselves of the influence of former teaching so far as to be willing to look at a thing from the standpoint of another.

Some of us have done this however. Though trained in the old school of thought, we have been enabled, by a careful examination of the Scriptures, to throw off the old idea and to accept the larger and better hope. And we are assured that the plan of the ages with its progressive revelation, and the general scope and spirit of the gospel as a revelation of the infinite love and wisdom of God, are far stronger evidence of the final victory of Christ in saving all men, than the mere definition of any word could be."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #45 on:** August 06, 2011, 11:59:19 AM »

#22 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT

In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)

This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

ENJOY!

jabcat · « **Reply #46 on:** August 06, 2011, 08:02:17 PM »

Quote from: rodgertutt on August 06, 2011, 11:59:19 AM

#22 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT

In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)

This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

ENJOY!

Thanks!

rodgertutt · « **Reply #47 on:** August 07, 2011, 01:21:41 PM »

#23 - DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
(These 254 pages are essentially an explanation of why he makes the following statement)

"The whole of scripture is full of the proclamation of a salvation that binds all men by a Redeemer Who gathers together and reconciles the whole universe. That is quite sufficient to enable us to hope for the salvation of all men without thereby coming into contradiction with the Word of God."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #48 on:** August 08, 2011, 12:30:05 PM »

#24 - GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY

"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.

We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).

We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son."

rodgertutt · « **Reply #49 on:** August 09, 2011, 08:28:26 AM »

#25 - A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY

"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.

The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)
This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.

News:

Author Topic: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT (Read 37144 times)