Author Topic: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)  (Read 3752 times)

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Offline sheila

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Re: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2014, 04:53:47 PM »
and these three things 'REMAIN" Faith,Hope and Love...but the greatest of these is Love.

Offline rosered

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Re: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2014, 05:16:04 PM »
and these three things 'REMAIN" Faith,Hope and Love...but the greatest of these is Love.

  Boy DO i ever agree with that  sis ,
  But   our faith , hope &  LOVE   is put to the test!!!       :winkgrin:

Offline sheila

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Re: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2014, 06:23:48 PM »
to me,sis, that faith hope love IS THE CHRIST SEED..........and along with the spirit of truth[helper] it leads into all truth

 that pertains to Christ...faith will not give out when it is corrected by 'truth' neither hope nor love..as we walk and mature in Him.

   two wittness's

Online Seth

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Re: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2014, 06:59:50 PM »
No problem, Seth. If these verses put wood in your stove and these commandments are working for you, then I am happy, my brother!

Well, I hope those commandments are working for anyone who says that they follow Christ. Because those are HIS commandments, not mine.

I liked the introduction to your website, too. What a wonderful story you have to tell!

Thank you  :friendstu:

Offline dajomaco

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Re: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2014, 10:31:23 PM »
No worries, you have not irritated me. Given the context of James 1 which you quoted (I just went and read the whole chapter), do you  believe James was talking about liberty from sin, or liberty to sin? What do you think about how James said that the "word implanted" is able to save you from all moral filth? What is the word implanted and how do you believe it is implanted?

I believe James is speaking from the POV of a man who has found true freedom...

For me, the 'liberty' cannot be qualified by the words 'from sin' or 'to sin', because it includes both, the freedom to sin is the freedom to not sin. That's the point - for me.

I guess, without really spending much time looking at it, the word implanted is Christ...implanted when we believe it, perhaps.. I don't know if we can say exactly, like it is a  science...

I must go and look after some animals (daytime here)

thanks..

No problem talk to you soon.

The reason I asked the question is that in James 2 he says

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers


In other words, it appears that James is saying that because the Word is implanted in us, it is able to save us from moral filth, and if so, if the law is written in our hearts, and we fail to love our neighbors  we become transgressors.

James is defining sin as acting without love.

lol, the cows can wait a few minutes..I just wanted to post this..

Seth, Read the James verse in context:

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James is offering the same argument as Paul (latter half of Romans 2) ie that the law is faulty, because if you break it in one point, you've broken it all...see verse 12 particularly...

Paul also summed up this in Galatians 2

"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.…

Check it out, verse 18 is talking about rebuilding what was destroyed (the system of law)...the NLV translates it.."Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down." It's a little crass but true

Eaglesway: Sorry, didn't mean to offend re the forum guidelines...Our own testimony is a very valid and scriptural way of 'bearing witness'....rev 12:20

Ill come back in a couple of hours :)


10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
 Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.

[/size]

Online Seth

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Re: In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2014, 10:43:28 PM »
Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Offline marie glen

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This thread has got me thinking about my own views and understanding on it.  Laying in bed this morning thinking about this, the idea that God didn't "want" or prefer the sacrifice, but instead wants mercy.  I think of course He wants mercy.  But I'm not sure the end of the Lord being merciful, and His heart being mercy, negates that it seems He still set things up this way, and yes, even required it (mystery, perhaps beyond understanding?).  How do all the scrips about God not wanting sacrifice, many of which are quoted earlier in this thread, reconcile with the following passage from Hebrews - which to me, seems to say God set it up that way, it was HIS plan (Christ, Lamb slain from foundation), and especially that it served a miraculous purpose [redemption]  beyond just giving us what we wanted and helping us "feel" better?   

So to me, it's obvious (and joyous) [and I accept nothing different] that God worked a miracle for all time at the cross, not just being a good example or "showing us love".  Beyond that, how do we reconcile "God didn't want it but acquiesced", with the following?  I'm honestly not totally clear on exactly how they reconcile, unless it's this - He prefers only mercy, but in His omniscience knows it had to be some other/a certain way so that's how He did it.    :Chinscratch:


Hebrews 9:12   But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


[the "legal" transaction ("it is finished/paid in full")]  16 For where a will [legal will of inheritance] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, [the miracle of the cross]  he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

..very interesting! and very good verses!

one thing I have thought about is the cross as a symbol of sincerity and graphic importance.. a symbol of God's forgiveness and reaching out which is strong enough to pierce every psyche`

I guess I think wandering from God is a psychosis... now that I think about it! And what else (but the cross) would work? able to transform/reconcile all.. :Chinscratch:

...just some thoughts.. :smile:
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
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- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/7803879-watching-a-squirrel

Offline eaglesway

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Quote
one thing I have thought about is the cross as a symbol of sincerity and graphic importance.. a symbol of God's forgiveness and reaching out which is strong enough to pierce every psyche`

I guess I think wandering from God is a psychosis... now that I think about it! And what else (but the cross) would work? able to transform/reconcile all.. :Chinscratch:

...just some thoughts.. :smile:


Wonderful thoughts :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline onesimus

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Dajomaco said

"10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.



May I encourage you by mentioning Paul's victorious statement; "that where sin abounded, grace much more abounded" (Romans 5:20).

The first 'abounded' in relation to sin means 'to superabound' and the second 'abound' in relation to grace is a completely different word, which means 'to abound exceedingly much more'. So, even when it seems that sin abounds (in ourselves or others) we can be more confident that the grace of God is working (often behind the scenes) exceedingly much more..

The best biblical example of this grace can be drawn from the verse you referred to in James 2, "For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

Like James, I think many pick out murder and adultery as the two ugliest transgressions. And yet, we also know that King David committed both of these. In a most gruesome, deliberate way, too. (1 and 2 Samuel). I mean, to qualify it, imagine the outcry if a US President stole the wife of a decorated 5 star general, made her pregnant, conspired to have the general killed on the battle field and then took the wife to be his own. David did the equivalent to Uriah with Bathsheba.

He was punished for it, although it took Samuel to get David to admit he had even done it. He lost the child, which was with Bathsheba from his adultery.

Yet, and this is a really big 'yet', although David had many wives, it was from Bathsheba's next union with David that we trace the human lineage of Jesus our Saviour.

As if to highlight this confounding fact, Mathew, in the opening passage of the NT, when listing the genealogy of Christ, refers to Bathsheba as 'her who had been the wife of Uriah.' It's like he wanted people to know the 'neighborhood' Christ came from.

Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..

It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..

So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.

Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'

I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.

Online Seth

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Dajomaco said

"10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.



May I encourage you by mentioning Paul's victorious statement; "that where sin abounded, grace much more abounded" (Romans 5:20).

The first 'abounded' in relation to sin means 'to superabound' and the second 'abound' in relation to grace is a completely different word, which means 'to abound exceedingly much more'. So, even when it seems that sin abounds (in ourselves or others) we can be more confident that the grace of God is working (often behind the scenes) exceedingly much more..

The best biblical example of this grace can be drawn from the verse you referred to in James 2, "For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

Like James, I think many pick out murder and adultery as the two ugliest transgressions. And yet, we also know that King David committed both of these. In a most gruesome, deliberate way, too. (1 and 2 Samuel). I mean, to qualify it, imagine the outcry if a US President stole the wife of a decorated 5 star general, made her pregnant, conspired to have the general killed on the battle field and then took the wife to be his own. David did the equivalent to Uriah with Bathsheba.

He was punished for it, although it took Samuel to get David to admit he had even done it. He lost the child, which was with Bathsheba from his adultery.

Yet, and this is a really big 'yet', although David had many wives, it was from Bathsheba's next union with David that we trace the human lineage of Jesus our Saviour.

As if to highlight this confounding fact, Mathew, in the opening passage of the NT, when listing the genealogy of Christ, refers to Bathsheba as 'her who had been the wife of Uriah.' It's like he wanted people to know the 'neighborhood' Christ came from.

Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..

It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..

So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.

Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'

I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.

See, according to Paul, Grace chastens  God's people to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). That's something the Christian church doesn't like to talk about. That's the kind of Grace Paul was teaching that superabounds.

Offline onesimus

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Good, interesting thoughts, Seth!!

Offline rosered

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Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..

It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..

So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.

Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'

I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.

  I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ     was a WHOLE lot more than Just dying on a cross 
 
  HE   came in the fullness of times [  For me it was to open the seals ]  being the Son of Man and Being also the Son of God   , making him Lord/ master of the dead and Living
 
  man being dead and God alive  , that reconciliation noun
1.
the restoration of friendly relations.
"his reconciliation with your uncle"
synonyms:   reuniting, reunion, bringing together (again), conciliation, reconcilement, rapprochement, fence-mending; More
2.
the action of making one view or belief compatible with another.   
 in Him the Law of death was  fulfilled
 
 Jesus was conceived of Holy Spirit showing us this is how we  would also come     ,  born  from above to the earth , making heaven come down ,
 
  Just as it says Jerusalem  comes down   ,   no one ascended          , in other words    no  one  could ever go up  , but it was God who come down   , that word stooped     ,     to save mankind   , so    those what were captive by death  and prison  that hold [slaves  whom wages of sin was death ]  ,    could go free 


 
  I have  watched   a program    to where when a slave was set free , he had no clue how to be free   , So    he still depended on his master   , if that Master   was   a good one   , to help him establish        himself    , before he tried   owning anything   or having anything     to  produce and make more
  Kind of like       What we see Jesus has done   in these verses 
 
 What is His own     with  usury    and this parable    message    , they all worked for the same  wage      saved from death  , but wanted  or expected more
 
 Like the elder son mentality  ,  was with His father all along and everything was his  to use and be   inherited,   so free  , but  expected more , because he did not know what he had  in this freedom  , he was waiting  for more in the end   or another   time/ age ?
 
Matt 20   
 
 
   8But when it was evening, the owner of the vineyard said to his custodian,


 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, and start from the last ones up to the first ones.'


 9And those of the 11th hour came and they received a denarius each.

 10And when the first ones came they had hoped that they would receive more, and they received a denarius each also.


 11And when they received it, they complained to the lord of the estate.


 12And they were saying, 'These last ones have worked one hour and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'

13But he answered and said to one of them, 'My friend, I do no evil to you. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?'

 14Take yours and go. But I wish to give to this last group even as to you.


 15Or is it illegal for me to do whatever I want to do with my own? Is your eye evil because I am good?' 16So the last will be first and the first last, for the called are many and the chosen ones are few."

17But Yeshua was prepared to go up to Jerusalem and he took aside his twelve disciples privately on the road and he said to them:


18"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and The Son of Man will be delivered to the Chief Priests and to the Scribes and they will condemn him to death.

19And they will deliver him to Gentiles, and they will mock him, and they will scourge him, and they will crucify him, and the third day he will arise."
 


…8Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."


 9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?


 10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
 
  So by this scripture we KNOW   He was the only one ascending after the Cross and   3 days to Raise His Body   / church up  from the earth     and those

graves opened and    set free       , and       those  gifts are from Him ,   Holy Spirit  how we  use them are    our joy or  loss , whatever   the slaves to sin who


has been set free   From the Master       can do    as grace a thankful heart and   labor   in Love     to a  debt   we could never  repay  , but appreciate    as Blessed
 
 

Offline dajomaco

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Dajomaco said

"10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

When the real truth of this verse was revealed to me.
The last thing I wanted to see was sin.
Not only Sin in my life But especially sin in a brother or sisters life.



May I encourage you by mentioning Paul's victorious statement; "that where sin abounded, grace much more abounded" (Romans 5:20).

The first 'abounded' in relation to sin means 'to superabound' and the second 'abound' in relation to grace is a completely different word, which means 'to abound exceedingly much more'. So, even when it seems that sin abounds (in ourselves or others) we can be more confident that the grace of God is working (often behind the scenes) exceedingly much more..

The best biblical example of this grace can be drawn from the verse you referred to in James 2, "For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery,"b also said, "You shall not murder."c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

Like James, I think many pick out murder and adultery as the two ugliest transgressions. And yet, we also know that King David committed both of these. In a most gruesome, deliberate way, too. (1 and 2 Samuel). I mean, to qualify it, imagine the outcry if a US President stole the wife of a decorated 5 star general, made her pregnant, conspired to have the general killed on the battle field and then took the wife to be his own. David did the equivalent to Uriah with Bathsheba.

He was punished for it, although it took Samuel to get David to admit he had even done it. He lost the child, which was with Bathsheba from his adultery.

Yet, and this is a really big 'yet', although David had many wives, it was from Bathsheba's next union with David that we trace the human lineage of Jesus our Saviour.

As if to highlight this confounding fact, Mathew, in the opening passage of the NT, when listing the genealogy of Christ, refers to Bathsheba as 'her who had been the wife of Uriah.' It's like he wanted people to know the 'neighborhood' Christ came from.

Perhaps, even more than that, Jesus, the God of all, is called both the root and the offspring of David (rev 22:10). And it is David's throne that Christ sits upon (2 Samuel 7:13-16)..

It is an affront to the religious mind. But is hard to ignore; that Christ arriving into this world and into our lives came despite his human origins being sourced in such extreme acts of sin..

So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.

Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'

I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.

See, according to Paul, Grace chastens  God's people to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). That's something the Christian church doesn't like to talk about. That's the kind of Grace Paul was teaching that superabounds.



Onesimos said

So, when I think of the heaviness of sin, I also think of the much more exceeding heaviness of grace.

Maybe that is partly what James had in mind too, when he said, a little further down the page in 2: 13, that 'mercy triumphs over judgement..'

I can understand why we call this grace 'amazing'.

The spirit of grace was truly abounding when early believers were selling all of their possessions and giving them to the apostles.

It just would not be appropriated to tell them that coveting is a sin. 

It would not be appropriate to warn Steven that coward ness is a sin.

If there is a spiritual gift of teaching then let the Spirit led Teach.
If there is spiritual gift of preaching then let the Spirit led Preach.


Online Seth

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There's a difference between warning someone whose fruit doesn't require warning, and warning someone whose fruit DOES require it. For example, there is a big difference between Stephen being filled by the Holy Spirit and preaching the Gospel unto death

….and….

The man in the book of Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and was cast out of the company for destruction of the flesh by Satan so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5).

If the man had a buddy, it would have been pretty wise for that friend to say, "hey man, it might not be a good idea to be sleeping with your father's wife. Bad things could happen." That would be a pretty healthy thing to do for him.