Author Topic: I had a little debate with an ET believer  (Read 471 times)

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Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2014, 10:25:32 PM »
From what I see in the whole body of Gospel teaching is that those who have come out of the judgement are those who have ceased their unbelief

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2014, 10:32:23 PM »
...and evil deeds have ceased as a result. Gotta read the whole passage. Deeds having been wrought in God.

"Work outwardly your salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God in you both to work and will of his good pleasure." Phil 2:12

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2014, 10:33:48 PM »
Anyone who does evil hates the light and will not come to the light so that his deeds will not be exposed.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2014, 10:45:45 PM »
I agree the starting point is their belief
then .....

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2014, 10:48:14 PM »
I agree the starting point is their belief
then .....

Agreed. For even demons believe and they tremble. Can that faith save them? Can they come to the light to be exposed? Maybe that was the torment they feared when Jesus cast them out.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2014, 10:52:35 PM »
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2014, 10:58:53 PM »
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.

I think James' example of demons was to show that being saved through faith is more than simply believing, but acting in in deed, or faith is dead and unable to save from the darkness....which men love. I think Christ's point is that those who both believe and come into the light are those who are saved from the darkness. But if, as with demons, we have faith but still love the darkness, we are not saved from it. Those who hate their brother remain in darkness, but if one who says he loves a brother who is hungry, and sends him on his way saying "be fed," has not been saved, for his actions have not been changed as they should. He is still working darkness through failure to love in deed. One cannot say he loves a brother when his actions say otherwise.

Offline Tom

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2014, 11:02:22 PM »
Eduard, scripture says those chosen for eonian life were chosen before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4), not because of anything we've done (Ephesians 2:8,9), but all will eventually be saved from death when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). All who die go to "hell" because that is just the Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," which is the state of dead souls. Even Christ went to the King James "hell" (Acts 2:27,31). "Hell" is not torture in fire forever for unbelievers. There is nothing you can do to keep yourself from going to "hell" when you die. Your adversary in your debate thinks he has chosen to be saved from "hell," but God chooses when anybody will be saved from death, not "hell," because all will be saved from death, some when Christ meets us in the air, and some at the consummation of the eons. That's the difference between the teaching of orthodoxy and the truth of scripture.

"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).

"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
 

Offline Tom

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2014, 11:08:57 PM »
I think demons and even Satan will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross because universal reconciliation means all of creation will be reconciled to God.

"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2014, 11:10:24 PM »
 :iagree:

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2014, 11:16:39 PM »
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.

I think James' example of demons was to show that being saved through faith is more than simply believing, but acting in in deed, or faith is dead and unable to save from the darkness....which men love. I think Christ's point is that those who both believe and come into the light are those who are saved from the darkness. But if, as with demons, we have faith but still love the darkness, we are not saved from it. Those who hate their brother remain in darkness, but if one who says he loves a brother who is hungry, and sends him on his way saying "be fed," has not been saved, for his actions have not been changed as they should. He is still working darkness through failure to love in deed. One cannot say he loves a brother when his actions say otherwise.


I assumed when we used the word Faith we meant faith in Christ the crucified

 But if, as with demons, we have faith
I don't know why you want equate our faith with that of demons.

I do know there are hungry people in your neighborhood.

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2014, 11:19:54 PM »
I did not think I was posting too or for demons.

I think James' example of demons was to show that being saved through faith is more than simply believing, but acting in in deed, or faith is dead and unable to save from the darkness....which men love. I think Christ's point is that those who both believe and come into the light are those who are saved from the darkness. But if, as with demons, we have faith but still love the darkness, we are not saved from it. Those who hate their brother remain in darkness, but if one who says he loves a brother who is hungry, and sends him on his way saying "be fed," has not been saved, for his actions have not been changed as they should. He is still working darkness through failure to love in deed. One cannot say he loves a brother when his actions say otherwise.


I assumed when we used the word Faith we meant faith in Christ the crucified

 But if, as with demons, we have faith
I don't know why you want equate our faith with that of demons.

I do know there are hungry people in your neighborhood.

James 2 explains.

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2014, 11:21:58 PM »
James 2
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2014, 11:26:10 PM »
You have to believe God is Love.
Then you can enter into the works that where prepared before hand for you.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2014, 11:28:55 PM »
If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2014, 11:31:04 PM »
You have to believe God is Love.
Then you can enter into the works that where prepared before hand for you.

Yes, but you cannot believe God is Love, but remain in darkness and be saved. One must come out of darkness. Those who remain in darkness are not saved from darkness. And John equates remaining in darkness as hating ones brother. That is why I believe in the concept of "already saved" in the sense of provision being made for it. But I don't think the Bible teaches that everyone is already saved beyond that, which is why their phraseology is consistent with idea that we are saved after we believe and come into the light.

If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling.  :dsunny:

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2014, 11:39:48 PM »
You have to believe God is Love.
Then you can enter into the works that where prepared before hand for you.

Yes, but you cannot believe God is Love, but remain in darkness and be saved. One must come out of darkness. Those who remain in darkness are not saved from darkness. And John equates remaining in darkness as hating ones brother. That is why I believe in the concept of "already saved" in the sense of provision being made for it. But I don't think the Bible teaches that everyone is already saved beyond that, which is why their phraseology is consistent with idea that we are saved after we believe and come into the light.

If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling.  :dsunny:

The provision is already there,(saved)
then the gift of faith,(believe I am saved)
then the turning from darkness.(walking in my salvation)

Offline Tom

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2014, 11:40:46 PM »
The word "faith," translated from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."

"Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)

I think our sight is usually limited to the material world, but we've been given faith, or belief, as a gift from God. I think demons know who he is because they can see him in the spiritual realm.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2014, 11:42:56 PM »
I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling.   :dsunny:

Love is more than a feeling is music to my ears.

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2014, 11:46:12 PM »
I agree. And love, of course, is more than a feeling.   :dsunny:

Love is more than a feeling is music to my ears.

Literally

Offline Tom

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2014, 11:58:09 PM »
I think we have faith, or belief, as a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8,9), because we're saved for eonian life, having been chosen before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4). I think we sin because it is in our flesh, but grace superexceeds when we do (Romans 5:20) and there's no condemnation in Christ (Romans 8:1).

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2014, 11:59:32 PM »
The word "faith," translated from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe."

"Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)

I think our sight is usually limited to the material world, but we've been given faith, or belief, as a gift from God. I think demons know who he is because they can see him in the spiritual realm.

Personally, I believe the distinction James is intending to draw is that the demons believe but do not act in love, so those who believe God is one, though doing well in that sense, are no more saved/healed from sin than demons are if they believe but their actions are not consistent with acting in love.

And I Think he clarifies his intention in the previous chapter when he says "put away all that remains of wickedness and receive the word implanted which  is able to save/heal your souls."
« Last Edit: Today at 12:03:58 AM by Seth »

Offline Tom

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #47 on: Today at 12:19:25 AM »
I think the demons and Satan know who the Father is, but he created them for the purpose of being adversaries. That's why, despite the fact that some think it is unjust, I think they will also be reconciled. I think he created believers for the purpose of manifesting his love in this material world as a witness to the entire universe. I think we believe and are saved for eonian life because we've been chosen before we were even born to do so, not because of anything we've chosen to do. I realize this idea is not popular, but it's my understanding of scripture.

Offline Seth

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #48 on: Today at 12:21:28 AM »
I agree with pretty much all you said about the eventuality of Satan being saved along with demons.  :thumbsup:

Offline Tom

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Re: I had a little debate with an ET believer
« Reply #49 on: Today at 12:28:18 AM »
Amen, brother. I believe the Father created all to serve a purpose in this grand drama of the universe, and he will eventually reconcile all on earth and in the heavens when there will be no more need for evil because he will be all in all.