Author Topic: Who was reconciled?  (Read 1647 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2014, 03:28:40 AM »
So, the world, yet in His time and in His order. That is great news, no that is Good News. Anyway I embrace it. :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2014, 09:17:44 AM »
"Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?"

The world would be my answer. HE is reconciling, now we who consider ourselves believers, have a tendency to cause division between the "them and us" but God is reconciling the world, and that imo and I believe, is ALL the world. He did the creating and He will do and is reconciling His creation speaking of the humanity He created. :2c:

If we understand the love of God, it is not about them and us,regardless of our position on this question. It is about Him and the salvation of all, for He loves all. Reconciling? There is no need if all are already reconciled. The reconciliation of all is a fact. We all agree on that. We are only discussing how the term and the idea of "being saved/delivered/made whole/restored" fits being reconciled in the present reality, an age in which all are not "in" the reconciliation that has been provided for them, and we as ambassadores/representaives of the kingdom of God calling them in, gathering them into our glorious liberty as children of God sharing the good news that all have been redeemed.

Each in his own order, as God has ordained.

I find it easy to see that the Holy Spirit speaks in the long view, of the ages fulfilled "all are reconciled"- and in the short view as well "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ." In the present view(as James and I see it) there is reconciling to be done. :o)

I see no need for these two views to be mutually exclusive. :o)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:34:00 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2014, 06:25:47 PM »
God is now conciliated to the world because of His Son's sacrifice, and the world will one day be reconciled to God!
(partial L.Ray smith post)
" We are only discussing how the term and the idea of "being saved/delivered/made whole/restored" fits being reconciled in the present reality, an age in which all are not "in" the reconciliation that has been provided for them,..."

Again, God is now conciliated to the world( imo thats the whole world) all of mankind(humanity) is in that process of REconciliation.
"... and we as ambassadores/representaives of the kingdom of God calling them in,...." yes, praise His Name, but "them" are also in the reconciliation, they just don't know it yet. :o)
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ed

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2014, 08:09:52 PM »


Ok, hehe then let me be clear that whoever does not believe in Yeshua is lost and needs to return home...to come to him. It is exactly to me what Eaglesway has shared, although I am using slightly different terms...he uses the terms 'objective' and 'subjective' which I would call 'God's view or reality' (the greater one) and 'man's view or reality'. Even though I am trying to bring out one facet of this, like showing one portion of a beautiful gem, I acknowledge the other parts of the gem as well. I am just showing one part that I believe most believers do not acknowledge, or are not aware of.

In this particular post I started, I believe the objective truth (God's view) that exists as true for every single human being is that God has conciliated man to himself in Messiah. Because that is true, it is the privilege of everyone who believes it now to implore those who do not believe, to 'be reconciled to God', (the subjective side or man's view side). Just because God has done it does not do away with the fact that, he sovereignly chose to bring people to faith through those sent to bear the message of the good news, as it is written:

For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher? And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"
(Rom 10:13-15)

God's reality (that the entire world is restored in relationship to God) and man's reality (seeing God through the mindset of separation and sin and in need of believing that God has dealt with those problems in Messiah) go hand in hand, in my opinion, describing both the end...and the means to that end.

The prodigal son who left his father's home and separate from him, was still his son (God's reality) even when he was living in sin, ending up in a pigpen as a son of the nations (man's reality). Although a son, he was lost (in a state of ruin where he did not belong) and he needed to return home, not to BECOME a son to his father, but to BE a son to his father, to live and experience life as it was always intended.

Likewise, we don't, by believing in Yeshua, BECOME reconciled to God, for he has already accomplished that in Christ without our permission, and before we here were even born. Rather, by belief and faith in what he HAS done, we fulfill in our minds the admonition to 'BE reconciled to God.' Until that happens, we exist as lost, without hope, not having life, nor the Son. We are like the man who has all the money in the world given to him in the bank, but because he stubbornly refuses to believe it, lives as one who is poor, destitute, having nothing, until such time as the one who put the money there convinces him that it is indeed true.

And, to use an example from scripture, God told the children of Israel that he gave them the land of promise. This was before they stepped one foot in that land. All they had to do was go in and take possession of what was already theirs. This tells us that it was complete from God's view, but they still needed to act on that promise for it to be complete in their experience, from their view. But, because of unbelief, God gave them over to their own choice and thinking, and that generation died in the wilderness. Their sin disciplined them. I believe that they, along with the rest of humanity, will be brought to experience what God has for us all in Messiah, but in the temporal setting that does not do away with human responsibility nor of the consequences of our actions. In other words, just because something is true, doesn't mean we just sit on our laurels and it just happens. God's view and man's view on this and every other aspect of life go hand in hand.

Ronen

Heard that.

 :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2014, 05:11:45 PM »
But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2Co 5:18)

This appears to be saying that God reconciled us (past tense) to himself, which would seem to say we are reconciled to God. I think most would say the 'us' are believers, both Paul and the ones he was writing to.

Now...

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19)

Here he says it slightly different, by saying that God was reconciling the world to himself. My question to you is, who is the 'world' here that has been reconciled? Is this everyone, including unbelievers? Or is it just 'us', those who believe, not including those who do not?

I ask this question because I think it will help clear up (hopefully) a common misconception from two things that appear contradictory.

In the Greek, "reconcile" is apokatallasso. Reconcile is a two-sided peace where two parties come together in peace. In 2 Corinthians 5:19 the Greek word is just "katallasso" and should be "conciliate" which is just one sided where just God is at peace with the world. That is why He uses His ambassadors (that's us believers) to entreat the world to be conciliated (at peace) with God.
Agreed

Quote from page 4.
Quote
NB. In the Greek, the word for 'conciliation' is commonly mistranslated
'reconciliation' but there is a big difference between these two words. Conciliation is
one-sided, and reconciliation is both sides at peace. See Concordant Version.
Humanity as a whole is not reconciled to God as yet, but God is conciliated to
humanity at present, refusing to reckon their offences against them and continually
holding out His hand of friendship and peace to all who will believe. See 2
Corinthians 5:14-21. For further study, see article entitled 'The Conciliation of the
World'.

http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/files/Download/the_evangel.pdf
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/files/Download/conciliation.pdf
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online Seth

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2014, 09:16:21 PM »
From what I see by looking at the two words "katallaso" and "apokatallaso" is that the former speaks to a conciliation (as mentioned by others), and the latter speaks to salvation by the conjoining of God and man by the Spirit, creating The Body.

1 Cor 7
10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be conciliated (katalasso) to her husband, and that the husband should not divorce his wife.


The conciliation of the woman to the husband is her part. The husband's part is to "not divorce his wife" (i.e. remain conciliated to HER). This reminds me of how God was in Christ conciliating the world to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: "be ye reconciled to God."

Here is apokatallaso and salvation by way of being reconciled-together by Spirit:

Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups (Jews and Gentiles( into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile (apokatallaso - end the separation) them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.


So, the conciliation is the changed nature of God's relationship to man (not that God changed, for he never changes), being that he has put away the enmity, which was the law of commandments contained in ordinances requiring Jews and Gentiles to be distinct by way of genetic traits and physical circumcision.

The reconciliation (apokatallaso) is the fruit of the conciliation, the actual conjoining of God, Jew and Gentile into one new man by the Spirit into the body of Christ through faith.

Romans 5:10
10 For if while we were enemies we were conciliated (katalasso) to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been conciliated, we shall be saved by His life.


That last part is the apokatallaso - saved by his life, through conjoining of the Spirit into the body, thereby giving us access to grace saving us from sin. The word "apo" in the Bible is usually translated into "departed" as in when Jesus "departed (apo)" from one part of the land to another.

Apokatallaso solves the problem of people being departed from God, where katalasso solves the problem of not having a way to conjoin the two.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2014, 08:17:14 AM »
Those verses in eph 2 are so beautiful. God is so good!
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Online Seth

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Re: Who was reconciled?
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2014, 12:05:10 AM »
 :banana:

I know. When you think about the whole plan together, it's really amazing