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Offline rosered

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The confusion of eternal fire
« on: September 30, 2014, 03:25:37 PM »
   
 I was reading Jude 1   
  and in every  translation  except   YLT       there is the    Judgement  of Gods eternal fire or as
 
 age during    corrective punishment    YLT
 Most  reading or being taught   believe in the fire  of Gods wrath as   eternal torment  and without    KNOWING the other scriptures God be ALL in ALL and   Jesus being the Savior of all men especially   those who believe  ,
 
 Can not even begin to process     the Love or power of God .
 
  It took a long time to understand     this   and even more to   realize That the    wrath  or anger  of God   is a righteous  anger    that does not  error   
 
 unlike mans anger that does NOT  work the righteousness of God
 
  Understanding the difference  has made all the  difference   for me .
 
 Has anyone else come to realize this as well ?   
 
 



 New International Version
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

New Living Translation
And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment.

English Standard Version
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

New American Standard Bible
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

King James Bible
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as angels did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

International Standard Version
Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them, which like them committed sexual sins and pursued homosexual activities, serve as an example of the punishment of eternal fire.

NET Bible
So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Just as Sadom and Amorah and their surrounding cities, in which, like these, they committed fornication and went after other flesh, are subject to demonstrations of eternal fire while they are condemned to judgment.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them is an example for us of the punishment of eternal fire. The people of these cities suffered the same fate that God's people and the angels did, because they committed sexual sins and engaged in homosexual activities.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, were set forth for an example, having received the judgment of eternal fire.

King James 2000 Bible
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after unnatural lust, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

American King James Version
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

American Standard Version
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Douay-Rheims Bible
As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Darby Bible Translation
as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire.

English Revised Version
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Webster's Bible Translation
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to impurity, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Weymouth New Testament
So also Sodom and Gomorrah--and the neighboring towns in the same manner--having been guilty of gross fornication and having gone astray in pursuit of unnatural vice, are now before us as a specimen of the fire of the Ages in the punishment which they are undergoing.

World English Bible
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Young's Literal Translation
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

Offline joeteekay

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2014, 04:17:21 PM »
Exactly how I feel, Rosie. Beautiful scriptures. God is LOVE!

Paul sets forth the consummation of the divine plan of the ages in four simple, yet infinitely profound words, 'God all in all.' This is our God, purposeful, wise, loving and almighty, His Son our Lord a triumphant Saviour, Who destroys His enemies by making them friends."


 :cloud9:
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 04:43:42 PM by joeteekay »
Joe from Ottawa

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2014, 04:44:57 PM »
Exactly how I feel, Rose. Beautiful scriptures. God is LOVE!
 :cloud9:

  Amen Bro Joe ,
 
 
  We are  One in Spirit  and desire to be in the, HIS  Spirit continually    where righteousness dwells :HeartThrob:

and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;

Offline bushy

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2014, 05:44:52 PM »
   
 I was reading Jude 1   
  and in every  translation  except   YLT       there is the    Judgement  of Gods eternal fire or as
 
 age during    corrective punishment    YLT
 Most  reading or being taught   believe in the fire  of Gods wrath as   eternal torment  and without    KNOWING the other scriptures God be ALL in ALL and   Jesus being the Savior of all men especially   those who believe  ,
 
 Can not even begin to process     the Love or power of God .
 
  It took a long time to understand     this   and even more to   realize That the    wrath  or anger  of God   is a righteous  anger    that does not  error   
 
 unlike mans anger that does NOT  work the righteousness of God
 
  Understanding the difference  has made all the  difference   for me .
 
 Has anyone else come to realize this as well ?   

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
'Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live

A beautiful sounding song by the Newsboys I don't like any more because I think this isn't what God's wrath is about. I agree with you that it is for our good by correcting everything in our lives that is wrong.

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2014, 05:58:36 PM »

 
 Love  it Bushy !!    :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
 
 It always been the same words , its how we   grow in truth and grace to understand and comprehend them     
 Changes the meaning  / a turning   around      in us   entirely   !!   "a new frame/  purpose  of mind " :friendstu: 
 Glory to    the  Most  Highest  God !

Offline sheila

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 06:14:26 PM »
   THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE..........of the corrupt image that all men have born..even the man of sin/son

 of perdition..that goes into everlasting cutting off.  let us make man in our image..........those He

  foreknew He deemed to be made in the image of His son. as all have bore the image of the corrupt one,so,

  too shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt one.


   Numbers 23;8  HOW CAN I CURSE THOSE WHOM GOD HAS NOT CURSED? HOW CAN I DENOUNCE THOSE

  WHOM THE LORD HAS NOT DENOUNCED?   Rev 2;14  Nevertheless I have a few things against you;

  You have a few people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam,who taught Balak to entice the Israelites

 to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols[curse on men teACHING OF bAAL/BURN IN FIRE] AND BY

COMMITTING SEXUAL IMMORALITY.

  nUMBERS 25  WHILE ISRAEL WAS STAYING IN SHITTIM THE MEN BEGAN INDULGING IN SEXUAL IM-

MORALITY WITH MOABITE WOMEN WHO INVITED THEM TO THE SACRIFICES TO THEIR GODS

  THE PEOPLE ATE AND BOWED DOWN BEFORE THESE GODS. SO ISRAEL JOINED IN WORSHIPPING

 THE BALL OF PEOR AND THE LORD'S ANGER BURNED AGAINST THEM.


  NOW THE LOF IS PREPARED FOR THE EVIL SPIRITS..OF WHICH MEN IN THE CORRUPT IMAGE BEAR THEIR

 LIKENESS/CHARACTERISTICS....AND THE EXAMPLES SHOWN IN MEN RECORDED IN THE SCRIPTURES

IS TO ILLUSTRATE THE END OF THE CORRUPT IMAGE IN ALL MEN...AND THE INCORRUPT IMAGE THAT

ALL MEN SHALL BE RAISED UP IN,EVEN JESUS CHRIST.


   AND SO,WHEN HIS ANGER ERUPTS..THAT WHICH IS CORRUPT IS CONSUMED.......BUT BECAUSE OF

  HIS GREAT LOVE YE SONS OF MEN ARE NOT CONSUMED.

Offline sheila

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 06:35:49 PM »
Leviticus 18;21 do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech[God redeems firstborn doesn't

burn it]   

Offline Tom

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 06:46:24 PM »
Rose, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church which prefers their tradition to scripture. I left the church in my teens to seek the truth elsewhere because I knew something wasn't right about church doctrine even though I wasn't familiar with scripture. After experimenting with the enchantment of various chemicals and Eastern philosophies, I finally came to the realization that the word of God is truth. I then read the King James Version for many years until I became aware of the importance of translation. I then read Young's Literal Translation until I became aware of the Concordant Version which I think is even more accurate. Here is their translation of your verse. 

"As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 1:7)

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)." (Concordant Commentary pg.376)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC26_Jude.htm

You can find the Concordant Version here: http://concordant.org/online/index.html

or here: https://www.youtube.com/user/urheretic

I've been communicating with their webmaster for the last couple of days who is downloading the vids from my channel to be published on their website at which time I'll delete them from my channel because they will replace the audio files I did for them which are the soundtrack of the vids. I've also been told that they've finally decided to get on YouTube soon to present an alternative source of information to all the hellfire and brimstone preaching on there. The teachings they present on their site are controversial with some folks, but I think their version of scripture is the best. I realize others have their own preference, but they translate "aion" as "eon" which is what it actually is even though many folks prefer to use "age," and "aionion," which is the adjective of "aion," as "eonian" not "eternal" because it describes a period of time not infinite time. They also translate "geenna" as "Gehenna" not "hell." They also don't have the Latin corruption of 1 John 5:7 like Young's Literal Translation shares with the King James Version. I often see you list various translations together in your posts. I suggest you include the Concordant Version in your lists in the future. I think a lot of confusion interpreting scripture can be cleared up by using an accurate translation, and that's especially important when sharing the truth of universal reconciliation and the salvation of all mankind. Their HTML version is easy to copy and paste, but there are some typos that need to be edited. I added an attachment containing the edited text. You can locate specific verses using this program. http://www.scripture4all.org/ And the Commentary Browser works together with it.  http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm I proofread the New Testament section of the CLV module in the ISA, but the Old Testament has some typos that need to be edited. Unfortunately the author of the program is busy with other things these days. So I don't know if that will ever get done, but the Concordant Version Old Testament PDF file is here. http://concordant.org/online/index.html That is going to be updated soon to harmonize with the new book to be available soon, but it is more accurate than the ISA CLV module Old Testament section.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 07:12:38 PM by Tom »

Offline marie glen

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 07:15:05 PM »

...when I think of "eternal fire" I think not of the Lake of fire or some such, but of the verse in Revelation which says.. "the smoke of her torment will rise up forever and ever.." "Her" being man's global empire/creation (17,18 products listed,etc, gold cup of side effects of her wayward ways), all the empires having met.. and how her crash demonstrates the folly of wandering from God.. and it is a lesson of mankind's history, etc, which shall never be forgotten.. this to me is the smoke which will rise up and never be forgotten.. In this case, to me, not just for an age and an age.. but a lesson totally and forever remembered.. the demonstration in flesh and blood and experience, that to wander from God/Life is utmost folly..
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/7803879-watching-a-squirrel

Offline Tom

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2014, 07:21:41 PM »
Marie, I think a more accurate translation is: "And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 14:11) because even they will be saved at the consummation of the eons.

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2014, 07:23:09 PM »
 
 Exactly Sheila
   bearing both images     , It a matter of who your looking to SEE


Exodus 3 Moses at the Burning Bush
1Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

 2The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."

Remembering  the   same  curiosity  ?     Gods purpose is in everything and everyone ,    and the true test is to wait on the Lord  for everything will be  made right in His own time  and ways .
 James  3
 
 …8But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison

 9With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

 10from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.


  within the same   parameters    of all our     family of God      in mankind   ,   If we look  we shall     SEE HIM    and  find HIM 
 
   we are all connected  / knitted together in   the Love of God  , For God so loved the world      ,   and when one begins to     doubt Gods love   or presence , they find   themselves in a world of hurt
 
 Faith  in trusting His   plan is   a true treasure    to have and to hold  on too .  :HeartThrob:

Offline sheila

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 07:28:11 PM »
 :thumbsup: Marie  Job 41;8 if you lay a hand on himyou will remember the struggle and never do it again!

   he looks down on all that are haughty....he is king over all that are proud.

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 07:34:12 PM »
 
  God bless your heart Tom !! :HeartThrob:
 
 Oh I recall the first time I heard of eternal damnation       , just a little child and the fear gripped     a hold  , choking out   any other good  word     that could possibly  be heard     , the age old adage/  observation of     self preservation          , Oh  my  , I always think of the two fold  child of hell /torment
 
 not only are they tormented  but they go about tormenting others with the same    mind set   of  judging   and EVERYTHING is evil !!    ahhhh !
 
 
Quote
I then read Young's Literal Translation until I became aware of the Concordant Version which I think is even more accurate. Here is their translation of your verse. 

"As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 1:7)

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)." (Concordant Commentary pg.376)

 I  Thank  God for such mercy    , and continue to rest in hope in Him
 
 
    Thanks for the    links  will check them out Brother T  !

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 07:39:48 PM »

...when I think of "eternal fire" I think not of the Lake of fire or some such, but of the verse in Revelation which says.. "the smoke of her torment will rise up forever and ever.." "Her" being man's global empire/creation (17,18 products listed,etc, gold cup of side effects of her wayward ways), all the empires having met.. and how her crash demonstrates the folly of wandering from God.. and it is a lesson of mankind's history, etc, which shall never be forgotten.. this to me is the smoke which will rise up and never be forgotten.. In this case, to me, not just for an age and an age.. but a lesson totally and forever remembered.. the demonstration in flesh and blood and experience, that to wander from God/Life is utmost folly..
Sista Marie , thank you   and Tom as well and  Shelia !!
 Amen   ,   What is humility  ?   , but to walk in the Spirit and humbly  with God being first and formost in all we could ever say or do , I am thankful for the   ability to wake up    and KNOW      EVERYONE   is going to be    fine    and refined      :gimmefive:        and  We will do know praising but to God  for He is Able ! !!!!       :HeartThrob:     we cannot even imagine    what is to come  :icon_flower:

Offline JBerton

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 07:54:29 PM »
Everything about eternal torment doctrine is built around the erroneous belief in eternal torment in a hell.  They twist and twist scriptures, trying to make sense of what they don't fully believe - the scriptures.  But it never really makes sense.  It always leaves one unsettled if they truly love others.  It is, however, quite satisfying to those who don't love their fellow humans.  That's the root of the problem with ET doctrine - it leaves out the most important thing - REAL! GOD'S! LOVE!
:Book: NEVER STOP SEARCHING! :Chinscratch:

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 07:55:22 PM »
 I forgot  :Oops:     

  In the bible  , forever can mean as long as one lives in the  earthly   body   too ,  that is a forever  we forget to consider   and that is not very long at all  :eek:
 
  and  in the earthly bodies      we get to experience     life    full of toils and labors , hardships , sickness  , sadness    and pain and suffering and LOSS    and if we  are  given grace to   by Jesus Christ   understand and taste the SPIRIT OF GOD 'S LOVE   , we have something   to hang on too and treasure    :HeartThrob:
 
  Gen 1 ;14 And God saith, 'Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night, then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years,   

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 08:02:03 PM »
Everything about eternal torment doctrine is built around the erroneous belief in eternal torment in a hell.  They twist and twist scriptures, trying to make sense of what they don't fully believe - the scriptures.  But it never really makes sense.  It always leaves one unsettled if they truly love others.  It is, however, quite satisfying to those who don't love their fellow humans.  That's the root of the problem with ET doctrine - it leaves out the most important thing - REAL! GOD'S! LOVE!

 
    :goodpost:     
 Yup , Forgive them FATHER  for they know not what they do !         Jesus message on the Cross   ,    we also must bear  it as well  ,
   Some  really do hate     the idea   of   Universal     reconciliation   


   and claim its an abomination and      a lie  :sigh:
 
   

Offline Seth

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2014, 08:11:24 PM »
One of the reasons for the confusion of aionios fire I believe can be traced to the manner in which spiritual things are discerned:

1 Cor 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


When we take spiritual (the words of God) and compare them to natural, confusion will always ensue, and also suffering, which I believe the doctrines of ET bring upon the churches. And I think the lesson I pull from that is that man's way leads to suffering, while God's way leads to life.

Offline rosered

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2014, 08:21:22 PM »
One of the reasons for the confusion of aionios fire I believe can be traced to the manner in which spiritual things are discerned:

1 Cor 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


When we take spiritual (the words of God) and compare them to natural, confusion will always ensue, and also suffering, which I believe the doctrines of ET bring upon the churches. And I think the lesson I pull from that is that man's way leads to suffering, while God's way leads to life.

 
  :iagree:   Bro S !     
 I always wondered why Jesus said Tell no man    . when he went about healing the sick and afflicted   in some cases   and      I know it was opposition 
 
   until He was      to be on that Cross      and after,,, its TELL THE WHOLE WORLD   everything you see  , and heard    !! 
 
  Just really beginning to grasp the power of the CROSS OF CHRIST     :HeartThrob:

Offline marie glen

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2014, 09:02:38 PM »
Marie, I think a more accurate translation is: "And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 14:11) because even they will be saved at the consummation of the eons.

oh yes! no doubt! I'm thinking it's the memory of the lesson of this life (the futility and folly of wandering away from God).. which memory, I believe is what will rise up "for the eons and the eons" - thanks for the translation, it makes more sense than the memory/lesson rising up (lasting) for an age and an age..
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/7803879-watching-a-squirrel

Offline marie glen

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Re: The confusion of eternal fire
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2014, 09:06:29 PM »
One of the reasons for the confusion of aionios fire I believe can be traced to the manner in which spiritual things are discerned:

And I think the lesson I pull from that is that man's way leads to suffering, while God's way leads to life.

   :iagree:
 
        :Chinscratch: and to my way of thinking, collapse... "judgment begins in the house of God.." ? :Chinscratch:
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/7803879-watching-a-squirrel