Author Topic: the European hell  (Read 224 times)

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Offline Abigail

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the European hell
« on: July 12, 2015, 10:08:27 PM »
Hi siblings,

Earlier the European hell was mentioned, opposed to the American one. A non-UR friend, mentioning this kind of hell, quoted from a book that is actually written by an American and mainly based on the ideas of C.S. Lewis.
http://www.timothykeller.com/books/the-reason-for-god

This kind of hell is not fire and brimstone or people being tortured by demons or any such thing. It is a place where people 'choose' to be, actually an identity they choose, namely: staying in sin and self forever, apart from God. The people 'living' in hell are described as not wanting to get out of it when they have the chance.

It seems to me a lot of christians I know, believe in this kind of hell. I find it somewhat harder to refute in a discussion. The traditional hell is so horrific that anyone in his right mind must doubt it at some point. :Chinscratch:
This kind of hell is somewhat softer and therefore in a way more 'acceptable' to people. (I think most people never thought through how horrible it actually is to stay in sin FOREVER without HOPE, without GOD!)

A truth the writer seems to see though, is that the actual problem to be freed from is sin, and staying in sin / without God is horrible. Somehow people can regret their ways, be freed from the power of sin and turn to God on this side of the grave, but on the other side they don't want this anymore. I don't know on what scriptures this view is based.

A lot of UR rebuttal seems to focus on fire & brimstone ET. Did any of you encounter this beliefs? Any thoughts about the background and rebuttal of these?

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2015, 10:47:20 PM »
I am very familiar with this yes. He is among those who believe in a universal work being accomplished by Jesus for every human without distinction, yet one key for them is that, while they are very hopeful of everyone actually coming to this realization, God gives man the free will to willingly reject what Jesus did for them for all eternity. Another famous C.S. Lewis quote is that 'the gates of hell are locked from the inside'. God's love lavished on them is the hell they must endure forever.

Ronen

Offline Dandelion

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2015, 11:45:45 PM »
Yes, I have known about this for about 40 years. The book that tells the story of a bus ride, between Heaven and Hell, is called The Great Divorce, by C.S. Lewis.  This is where I read him discussing this premise.

Actually, as a Catholic, then as a Lutheran, I came to picture hell, as us being chained to the decay of this world, without God. Our Spirits, locked in our bodies, dependent on the laws of nature, which would be for us to decay and turn to dust, eventually. That was my version of where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Mark 9:48. And, yes, I believed it was us who chose to go to hell, by refusing to accept Jesus, not God sending us to hell. I was taught that, by my teachers, in Catholic school, as time went by, and God was viewed more as a loving God, than a vengeful one. At least this thought acknowledged that Jesus died to save all mankind.

But, that changed on Pentecost of this year, when I accepted Christian UR.

In my journey to UR, I did my own scripture study, with the assistance of a Christian UR friend, and I came to see just how loving our God truly is. As much as I believed that God and love were interchangeable before, I came to believe this, even more.

There is a Christian song, called, HOW CAN YOU SAY NO TO THIS MAN?   I believe, when we are at the judgement, and those who did not believe in Jesus, see the God, the father, as He describes himself in the story of the prodigal son,  they will not be able to say no to Him.

Moderators, please give me your input here, as well as my fellow seekers, but, perhaps, that is one of the differences between men and angels.......angels, or Lucifer, are able to say 'no', to God, but, because we are created in God's image and likeness, and we were created to be His children, there is this intrinsic relationship, that we will know the 3 persons of the Trinity, when we see our God, without 'the glass, darkly', (1 Corinthians 13:12) and respond to the Love of God. 

 :2c:          :dunno2:





7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:7 -8

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2015, 09:59:26 AM »
I have always thought that there must still be some correction awaitng the wicked- just because of the language of scripture, but I have no trouble believing that the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ will se everyone free, but there are a few things that make me not able to quite come down on it being instant for all. My experience is there is usually a grain of truth in most of these "doctrines". I see the allegorical truth in "The Great Divorce" as more about how God deals with us in the innermost chambers of our hearts than an actual theory on eternal judgment. In revelations it says those whose names are not written in the lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire- but...

As I have said a few times, I believe we are the lake of fire- the great cloud of witness that are the families of the Father of lights will be gathered in the presence of God and His holy angels(and really already are, "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus"). Remember how Paul said, "In the presnece of God and His holy angels I have decided to delievr such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh......."



When Fine Linen(a former member) shared this 6 or 7 years ago I wasnt sure about it(us being, or being part of, the lake of fire) but many scriptures began to jump out at me, "Know you not that you will judge angels(2 Cor)", "The thrones were set in place....the court was seated and the books were opened."(Dan 7:9-11) "His eyes were as flames of fire"(Rev 1), "All things are open to the eyes of Hm with which we have to do"(Hebrews 4:12), "The eyes of the Lord run to nd fro over the whole earth seeking the oure in heart that He might show Himself strong in them" "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."(Rev 4)

I think this verse should read differently....
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

I would translate it, "they will suffer the punishment of aionian correction from the presence of the Lord."

away from is "apo" which is translated, "by" "from" "because of" "of" and "out of" over 500 times and never "away from" but here in 2 Thess

In Acts 5:2 it is actually translated "part of" for when Anninias and Safira help back part of the sale price of their land.

I believe all judgment is in the presence of God, "On the day when the Lord judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ"(Rom 2), I charge you in the presence of God and His holy angels"(Tim), "And the devil and His angels were tomented in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels with fre(pyr) and brimstone(theon)".

If a person reads the entire chapter of Hebrews 12 from verse 1 on, they can see this illustrated as a word picture(imo)

I think, since Jesus said this experience(aionian kolassis) was t be avoided, I dont think it will be instant for all and I think it will be long and difficult for some, because if the last adversary is death and maybe the second to last the adversary,  it may take many stripes until some bow the knee and few for some, or there would be no need to speak of a "last adversary" because, when the last human bows the knee there will be no more death, so there would be no "last adversary" or need for "thrones and books and courts"....but i am not really certain about it, I am famiiar with all the gnostic and mystic explanations for those verses about the lake of fire and Romans 1 and 2. They are just not convincing to me.

I dunno, its pretty blurry through that darkened glass......:o)

In my opinion the best verse for refuting his premise are

Philippians 2:9-11....every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or earth or under the earth, every tongue confess. Epphesians 1:9-11...an adminstration of the fulness(completion) of time....the gathering together into one of all things, whther things on earth or things in heaven, in Christ  Col 1:15-20."..for so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all, whether in heaven or in earth, to Himself through the blood of His cross." And 1 Cor 15:25-28...25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

If death is destroyed there can be no more enemies and no more kolassis or torment or lake of fire, because it is the second death.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 10:15:39 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline Dandelion

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2015, 03:21:25 PM »
I am sorry. Reading my blurb over, I can see how it sounds like I believe that once we see God, we will all be immediately accepted as we are and joined with Him in eternity. However, I don't believe that either.

I guess I am still in the mode, that tells me, if we were to be separated from God, it would be of our own choice. So, I am saying, when we see Christ, we will all want to be in Heaven, and realize that He is our Savior. From that point, we will be willing to do what needs to be done for our total transformation, to be citizens of Heaven. As I believe that it is faith that saves us, and not works, I also believe we all need to know that God is God for us to begin or continue our journey to transformation. I don't think, that this happens under duress, but rather as a response to the Love of God, which all will realize upon meeting Him face to face, if we haven't accepted this already. Then, all souls will realize that God is the only path to take, and they will do so in acknowledgement of this. As far as being in the presence of God, I think of all things being in His presence, as God is everywhere. But, I think I understand your perspective, ew.

I love the line, "The eyes of the Lord run to and fro over the whole earth seeking the pure in heart, that He might show himself strong in them." 2 Chronicles 16:9 This is a verse I didn't recognize as having come across.

Also, I am not very familiar with Revelations, as neither my Catholic or Lutheran traditions hardly give it any attention. One of the sections of the Bible I need to strengthen myself in.

You will all have to excuse me, as, these thoughts are sometimes forming, on the go, as I am putting the pieces together, in a new and different way, from what I believed from my past. As I am one to think out loud, I am writing out loud, so to speak, as I go along, sometimes.

Thank you, eaglesway, for your beautiful and thought-provoking response to our thoughts.        :gimmefive:
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:7 -8

Offline micah7:9

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2015, 05:40:09 PM »
"(If )[when]death is destroyed there can be no more enemies and no more kolassis or torment or lake of fire, because it is the second death." :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :2c:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2015, 06:41:02 PM »
Again, as I have stated many times now, if anyone is "staying in sin and self forever, apart from God" then God can never become All in all.  But He will be, soooooooooo, no one does that.  Did C.S. Lewis really think anyone could just close the door behind him and shut God out forever?  What is a door to God?  It is an entry...
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Seth

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2015, 07:16:29 PM »
Hi siblings,

Earlier the European hell was mentioned, opposed to the American one. A non-UR friend, mentioning this kind of hell, quoted from a book that is actually written by an American and mainly based on the ideas of C.S. Lewis.
http://www.timothykeller.com/books/the-reason-for-god

This kind of hell is not fire and brimstone or people being tortured by demons or any such thing. It is a place where people 'choose' to be, actually an identity they choose, namely: staying in sin and self forever, apart from God. The people 'living' in hell are described as not wanting to get out of it when they have the chance.

It seems to me a lot of christians I know, believe in this kind of hell. I find it somewhat harder to refute in a discussion. The traditional hell is so horrific that anyone in his right mind must doubt it at some point. :Chinscratch:
This kind of hell is somewhat softer and therefore in a way more 'acceptable' to people. (I think most people never thought through how horrible it actually is to stay in sin FOREVER without HOPE, without GOD!)

A truth the writer seems to see though, is that the actual problem to be freed from is sin, and staying in sin / without God is horrible. Somehow people can regret their ways, be freed from the power of sin and turn to God on this side of the grave, but on the other side they don't want this anymore. I don't know on what scriptures this view is based.

A lot of UR rebuttal seems to focus on fire & brimstone ET. Did any of you encounter this beliefs? Any thoughts about the background and rebuttal of these?

I think the fire and brimstone rebuttal is of the interpretation that the fire and brimstone is literal. That's only one aspect of dissolving some of the fear ETers live with, that I lived with, which opens up the possibility that Jesus isn't the person they think/teach he is.

For those who are already fine with that but are non UR, there's also the matter of no proof that anyone will be separated from God forever, and all the scriptures that say he is the Savior for the whole world, such as Micah brought up, and Eaglesway.

I suspect there are some people who want God to be separated forever from unbelievers, but just not to such a horrifying result. That way they can have their exclusive club but not feel like they are consigning anyone to torment forever. It's a "happy" medium.

So to answer your question, there's not much you can do for someone who has found a compromise to serve their needs. I believe those who believe the truth have been long prepared by God to go looking for it and not accept compromise.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 07:28:59 PM by Seth »

Offline Abigail

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2015, 11:08:54 PM »




I would translate it, "they will suffer the punishment of aionian correction from the presence of the Lord."



 



I find this so comforting. Trying to imagine what it is to be out of Gods reach / presence is the most horrible thing I can think of.



There is a Christian song, called, HOW CAN YOU SAY NO TO THIS MAN?   I believe, when we are at the judgement, and those who did not believe in Jesus, see the God, the father, as He describes himself in the story of the prodigal son,  they will not be able to say no to Him.









I do not know how to understand judgment, but in the end, I feel like it has indeed to do with not being able to withstand the great love of God. And probably having to do with seeing oneself as one really is, realizing the blackness of one's own heart in the light of God/Love. It reminds me of how Rick Joyner describes how he felt when he had a vision about being before Gods throne.


I think the fire and brimstone rebuttal is of the interpretation that the fire and brimstone is literal. That's only one aspect of dissolving some of the fear ETers live with, that I lived with, which opens up the possibility that Jesus isn't the person they think/teach he is.

For those who are already fine with that but are non UR, there's also the matter of no proof that anyone will be separated from God forever, and all the scriptures that say he is the Savior for the whole world, such as Micah brought up, and Eaglesway.

I suspect there are some people who want God to be separated forever from unbelievers, but just not to such a horrifying result. That way they can have their exclusive club but not feel like they are consigning anyone to torment forever. It's a "happy" medium.

So to answer your question, there's not much you can do for someone who has found a compromise to serve their needs. I believe those who believe the truth have been long prepared by God to go looking for it and not accept compromise.

I think you give words to my thoughts here. It just makes it somewhat easier for people to get along with a belief in eternal 'hell' if it's not so horrible. What I find very confusing in what people believe about hell, consists of a mixture of different, maybe even opposed, views. I get so confused I cannot answer very well :laughing7:


Offline micah7:9

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Re: the European hell
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2015, 04:31:51 AM »
"Trying to imagine what it is to be out of Gods reach ...."

One is NEVER out of God's reach, but yes one can imagine such a thing, should they not know one can never be out of His reach.
Psa 139:7 Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.