Author Topic: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT  (Read 108321 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #300 on: June 14, 2012, 01:03:47 AM »
That thread is closed Rodger: http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/%22Christian_Double_Talk%22_P73698/

My guess is they 'advised'  a blog because they might have mistunderstood you by assuming you start a new thread every day.
What you do here on TM is pretty much a blog too. You posted 100s snippets in one thread.
Maybe you can explain you intend to post in just one thread. Depending on their answer you make your final choice.
Just a thought.

Well WhiteWings, I got banned.

The mod Sarah sent me a PM saying that she didn't realize at first that I am a UR.
And she says that since I don't believe the Bible she has banned me, but she says she hopes I will soon find "the real Jesus Christ," Of course she means the "Jesus" who will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.

In my reply, I gave her this link
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html

I doubt I will hear back from her.

WhiteWings, let me know if you find another forum where I can try posting my snippets.
Thanks
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #301 on: June 14, 2012, 05:24:42 AM »
Jesus got banned for telling the truth too Rodger; so you are in good company.
At least to were able to post a few snippets I hope. Or were they deleted?
Still weird that Mark guy was allowed to post for that long.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4168
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #302 on: June 14, 2012, 05:33:58 AM »
That was beautiful and almost brought me to tears.

Here was a man who truly knew the Father.  :HeartThrob:

Amen
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #303 on: June 14, 2012, 03:23:51 PM »
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #8

ARGUMENTS

I believe that the Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.

I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 73 years old now.

People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
 
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #304 on: June 15, 2012, 02:01:27 PM »
#8 - THE NATURE, THE CHARACTER OF CHRISTIAN PRAYER - JOHN WESLEY HANSON

Every human being is under perpetual obligation to pray to God as the
Father of all souls, to bring in His kingdom, fulfill His will and
deliver from evil, and save from sin the whole human family; and that
we are commanded to pray for this,—universal salvation—is evident from
the language of the Apostle Paul in I Timothy 2:1-4:
"I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and
all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty; for this is good and acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come
unto the knowledge of the truth."

Thus God desires all men to be saved, and you and I and all men are
commanded therefore, to pray that all men may be saved. God does this.
This prayer proceeds from the divine heart all the time. "Prayer is
the soul's sincere desire uttered or unexpressed." All men must, when
they follow the instincts of their nature, pray for the salvation of
all men...

But the second feature in prayer is, that men, "whatsoever they ask
for of God, shall pray in faith, nothing doubting.
I Timothy 2: 8:—"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting
up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."
It is wicked to pray for anything to God, unless we pray in faith,
unless in our heart of hearts we believe our hopes will be answered. A
faithless prayer is an abomination in the sight of God; hence the
apostle says in Romans 14:23:—"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Now, then, a Christian must pray for universal salvation; if he does
not, he does not offer Christian prayer; and if a man thus prays, but
believes that his prayer will not be answered, then he cannot offer
Christian prayer. Genuine Christian prayer comprehends the final
salvation of all men, and as it is necessary to give it in full faith,
nothing doubting, it demonstrates the final salvation of all, for
certainly God would not command his children to pray for a thing and
pray without doubting, unless in the divine plan that were to be the
result. Hence Paul appeals to this ground of faith in I Timothy 2:5-6:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due
time."
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #305 on: June 16, 2012, 02:16:03 PM »
#9 - In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying
(v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth,
shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which
draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is
dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is
moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which
cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the
outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).

When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act
as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to
do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into
so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will
and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.

Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever
the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due
time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John
12:32). James Coram  http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a

It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4168
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #306 on: June 16, 2012, 03:07:25 PM »
Excellent. Beautiful. Wondermus!
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #307 on: June 17, 2012, 01:30:52 PM »
#10 - Does God "offer" salvation to all, and it's up to each one to either
accept it or reject it?

First, of ourselves, none of us would accept it. So, we should receive
the clear Bible teaching that faith is a gift. Ro. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29.

Second, we know from Ro. 9 and other verses such as Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes.
2:13 and 3:2, that God does not choose to save all in this life.

Third, we know God wills all to be saved. Titus 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6.

Fourth, we know that all things are possible with God. Matt. 19:25,
26; Jeremiah 32:17.

Fifth, we know that Christ enlightens all, and draws all to Himself.
John 1:9; 12:32.

Sixth, we know God will reconcile all to Himself. 1 Cor. 15:20-28;
Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; Ro. 5:18, 19.

Therefore, seventh, we know that God grants salvation (faith,
repentance, and reconciliation) to all, for He is the Savior of all
mankind. Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Tim. 4:9-11
- Kenneth Larsen.
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4168
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #308 on: June 17, 2012, 07:14:12 PM »
#10..... I don't kno.
A gift must be accepted, or it is not a gift. To be a gift, two free wills must be involved. A gift I cannot reject is not a gift.

 As I see it- the paradigm is that God will win every free will He has given (imo, He has given evryone He created in His image a free will or they are not created in His image) into His love, and has known that and planned it so since the beginning. His love is so awesome, and so beautiful (as demonstrated upon the cross of Christ) that is will DRAW all men unto Him. If we reject it, as we all hav at one time or another, it will only be until the light finally breaks through the darkness in wavs of glory and we fall upon bended knee and confess with joyfully liberated lips that JESUS IS MESSIAH AND LORD!.....to the glory of God the Father.

The beauty of Jesus is that having complete freedom of will He chose to chose to humble himself and lay down his life- suffering the bitter pains of death for all creation, in order to set them free from futility into the GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD- which is simply the freedom of doing all things out of love.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #309 on: June 17, 2012, 08:16:38 PM »
Depends how one looks at it EW.
Your way which is similar to this.
But OTOH the gift was Jesus "gave His only begotten Son". There is nothing you can do to turn back the events that took place nearly 2000 years ago. The last 3 years of Jesus' life was "the gift"


Missing the 2cent icon.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #310 on: June 17, 2012, 10:32:55 PM »
#13 - DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larson

Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan/Catholic-inherited ideas.

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4168
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #311 on: June 18, 2012, 03:25:46 AM »
Depends how one looks at it EW.
Your way which is similar to this.
But OTOH the gift was Jesus "gave His only begotten Son". There is nothing you can do to turn back the events that took place nearly 2000 years ago. The last 3 years of Jesus' life was "the gift"


Missing the 2cent icon.....

Definitely depends on how one looks at it. The coin has two sides to view, both elements of one full coin (and only half of two cents :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #312 on: June 18, 2012, 05:15:14 AM »
Cool post, Rodger.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #313 on: June 18, 2012, 06:08:18 AM »
Cool post, Rodger.

Thanks jabcat, but the link you gave will not open for me.
Does it open for anyone else?
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #314 on: June 18, 2012, 06:38:52 AM »
Oh sorry, that link is just in my signature with every post.  I didn't know it was a dead link now though.  Thanks, I'll see what's up with it.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #315 on: June 18, 2012, 08:26:29 AM »
Depends how one looks at it EW.
Your way which is similar to this.
But OTOH the gift was Jesus "gave His only begotten Son". There is nothing you can do to turn back the events that took place nearly 2000 years ago. The last 3 years of Jesus' life was "the gift"


Missing the 2cent icon.....

Definitely depends on how one looks at it. The coin has two sides to view, both elements of one full coin (and only half of two cents :o)

#10..... I don't kno.
A gift must be accepted, or it is not a gift. To be a gift, two free wills must be involved. A gift I cannot reject is not a gift.
Well EW you are wrong :-)  :friendstu:
It's very odd but the only way to recieve the gift was by completly rejecting the gift (Jesus)....
And that's just what happened 2000 years ago. The leaders rejected Jesus so strongly they put Him to death. His death (the Lamb sacrifice) opened the parcel God sent to earth 33 years earlier. If the leaders had accepted Jesus the parcel would never have been opened.....

Yeah I know, it's an uncommon way to look at it... :Egyptdance2:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #316 on: June 18, 2012, 01:44:06 PM »
#14 - IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson

"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30. God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
 
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.

Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #317 on: June 19, 2012, 02:32:47 PM »
#15 - Questions

In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.

Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.

• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them?  Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.

• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?

• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?

• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?

• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?

• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.

• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?

• Why does God give up on people after death?

• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
 
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
 
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?

• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
 
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?

• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?

• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?

These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 02:39:08 PM by rodgertutt »
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #318 on: June 19, 2012, 03:01:13 PM »
#15 - Questions

In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.

Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.

• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them?  Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
God gave by His own free will, free will that can overrule His free will.

Quote
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
His will is that we have free will.

Quote
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
If God is willing so, yes.

Quote
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
Tears vaporize instantly at 3000F

Quote
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
This is the only verse in which aion means age.


Quote
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
God is ifinite great so rebellion against Him requires ifinite harsh punishment.


Quote
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
A shepherd can save sheep eaten by wolves.

Quote
• Why does God give up on people after death?
Honoring their free will.

Quote
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
God's ways are higher than ours.

Quote
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
All are restored to life. It's teh location that differs.


Quote
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
Again, obviously because people choose hell and He grands everybody that happyness.

Quote
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
Jesus didn't have that problem so we are to blame.


Quote
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
Taken out of context.


Quote
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
God is also just.

Quote
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
Happyness can only be fully understood if it can be compared to suffering.

:goodpost:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #319 on: June 19, 2012, 03:22:46 PM »
His will is that we have free will.

"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.

Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.

It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN

Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 04:18:46 PM by rodgertutt »
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #320 on: June 19, 2012, 03:39:04 PM »
Rodger, I think you took my reply a tiny bit to serious :-)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #321 on: June 19, 2012, 03:51:25 PM »
Rodger, I think you took my reply a tiny bit too seriously :-)

Probably did.

I do like Gerry and Preston's point of view though, don't you WhiteWings?
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4168
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #322 on: June 19, 2012, 05:12:12 PM »
Points of view are exactly that- points. From different points we all see various aspects of the many faceted wisdom of God. The problem is, we become convinced that one point or another is the pre-eminent mount from which the truth can be understood.

Logic is a framework built around a point. The diamond has many points- we can disagree about which is the more prevalent point in the mind of God- we are usually all wrong.

The LOGOS is the totally enfolded mind of Christ, WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD,  WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR.

We only know that ALL of the word of God is included in the mind of Christ.

From my limited point of view, it is not because He is strong enough- tho He certainly is. It is because He is BRIGHT enough to penetrate all darkness. He is LOVING ENOUGH to overturn all hate. He will force NO ONES HAND. That is the beauty of His love. He will WIN EVERY FREE WILL into harmony with His own pure light and love by the unalterable glory of His divine nature- the brightness of His being. In My Opinion, this is the glory of His plan which He made according to His kind intention, according to His desire that all men be saved, according to the counsel of Him who causes all things to work in accordance to His will.

My reason for stating this IS NOT TO CONTEST A POINT. It is so that on this site we can recognize that the SALVATION OF ALL does not depend on a particular point of view regarding certain less important THEOLOGICAL and LOGICAL systems of thought about how time works or whether the chicken precedes the egg.

It is dependent only upon the VERY NATURE OF WHO GOD IS and what He has said He is doing. Believers who come here from one POINT OF VIEW or the other should not feel that we are espousing EITHER point of view as a foundation for the SALVATION OF ALL. It is not necessary.

 I believe every being has been given a totally free will, but that God has set the times, the ages, the kosmos to the tune of His love and all will be drawn into it until He is ALL IN ALL(Acts 17 24-28, 1Cor 15:22-28). This is (IMO) the glorious liberty of the sons of God into which the whole creation is being LIBERATED(Romans 8:16-23). For freedom Christ has set us free.

Someone else takes a more authoritarian view. God has pre-dertermined every event in every life and all will eventually bow the knee to Him because of it. OK ,God is love - I have no problem with that POINT OF VIEW.

Perhaps two sides of one coin, perhaps not- IT DOESNT MATTER beyond the scope of an intriguing conversation until someone begins to assert their view as being the "gleam on the tip of the spear of God's revelation".

WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR, WHO HAS GIVEN TO HIM THAT HE SHOULD REPAY... FOR FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TOO HIM ARE ALL THINGS -to whom be the glory throughout all ages and beyond.

Me, I love seeing through a glass darkly, it leaves so much more freedom of exploration.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 05:22:34 PM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rodgertutt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 803
  • Gender: Male
    • HELL IS NOT ENDLESS
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #323 on: June 19, 2012, 05:27:13 PM »
Changing the subject - I think. :-)

#16 - Hannah Whitall Smith

"…I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so.

Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.

I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race.

God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall.
 
There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.

I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."

A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
"God will have all mankind to be saved" 1Timothy 2:4

anna274

  • Guest
Re: SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« Reply #324 on: June 19, 2012, 05:47:44 PM »
Hi Eaglesway:

re: Me, I love seeing through a glass darkly, it leaves so much more freedom of exploration.

Me too!!!

see new thread: Seeing through a glass darkly (it may take me a few minutes to put together some thoughts...   thanks, I really appreciate your thoughts on POV, God bless, anna