Author Topic: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?  (Read 1327 times)

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Offline Aleax

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Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« on: December 26, 2010, 10:56:59 PM »
I guess we all have heard those "all does not mean all, especially doesn't mean especially" arguments. But what about this?

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Jesus and Paul told us it is indeed a challenging task to qualify as an elect. Many would try to win the race but fail to do so. Even Paul himself was unsure on whether he would make it. Now, if disqualifying means facing eternal torchery, how could these verses make any sense whatsoever?

I can recall having heard two explanations from ET believers.

#1: "Yes, God's love for you will never end. Even if He's forced to send you to an endless hell He is still going to always love you. It will break His heart having to do that but since God is Infinite Holiness, any lesser penalty simply would not be enough."

My Answer: I know how it's like to lose a loved one to death. It hurts like hell. So, you're saying that one day, God, whose love is supposedly millions of times greater than mine, is going to lose billions of loved ones to something infinitely worse than death: ET? How is God ever going to mentally recover from Judgment Day? If your beliefs are the truth I sure hope some of the best shrinks to ever live make it to Heaven!

#2: "Once saved always saved. Paul is writing to people with a genuine born-again experience. However, most people will never be born again. They will face eternal damnation."

My Answer: Read Hebrews 6. Paul is also saying it is possible to fall away. And, if falling away = getting sentenced to ET, then Rom. 8:38-39 is a lie and a lot of things are actually able to separate us from the love of God. Prove thyself worthy or burn!

Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

LS

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2010, 11:21:31 PM »
Hi Aleax - I am not defending ET, but I don't see this chapter of Romans as you do - as some kind of proof against ET.

When I read the entire chapter, I see a distinction made between believers (those who are in Christ), and those who do not belong to him (see verse 8). These earlier passages in the same chapter, for example, are distinctly pointing not to "all mankind" but either to believers specifically, or to those who "do not belong to him":

1 Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

8 those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  9 But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

11 If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.


So when I get to verses 38 and 39, in my mind those are applying not to all mankind, but to those who are in the spirit, within whom the Spirit of God dwells. 

In Peace
 :grouppray:


Offline Aleax

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 12:05:36 AM »
Hi LS,

I know you're an Annihilationist; and yes, I know Paul is addressing only believers here.

My point is that throughout his letters to churches Paul is constantly writing about how much of a struggle it is to be qualified as an elect. Many believers would try and fail. Yet, Paul is also saying nothing can separate the believers from God's love. So I'm reading these verses as "even if you fail to qualify as an elect (which means making it to the Millennial Kingdom) you will still get to be with God at the Consummation of the Eons, after doing your sentence in the Lake of Fire".

I may be wrong but that's my current understanding.  :2c:
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 01:13:22 AM »
You write about believers. But what about for example a muslim?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LS

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 01:16:04 AM »
I may be wrong but that's my current understanding.  :2c:

 :thumbsup:  Thank you for 'splaining!  I understand what you are saying. 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 01:21:09 AM by LS »

LS

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2010, 01:19:59 AM »
You write about believers. But what about for example a muslim?
In my opinion, the sheep & goats judgment in Matthew is the judgement of all non-believers (who never heard of Jesus, etc.).  I believe Romans 2:15 tells us that SOME who never heard of Jesus or who were not believers, will be saved because "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"


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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2010, 01:48:58 AM »
But the law was first written on the hearts in NT times.
Does that mean the pagan OT people are without hope? Even if they did help the sick, feed the hungry, etc?

Personally I think the saints are also part of the sheeps and goats.
Many believers don't do a single thing to help those in need. They only point fingers and pat themselfs on the back.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2010, 02:27:29 AM »
To be honest Matthew 25 has always puzzled me. The only thing I know is I'm pretty convinced it's not the Great White Throne Judgment since the Matt 25 judgement is something that's going to happen at the Christ's coming/at the end of teh Present Evil Aeon. At that point, the GWT judgement is still 1,000 years away. (Even if the 1,000 years is not literally 1,000 years, the GWT is still in the future when Matt 25 judgement takes place IMO.)

I accept LS' interpretation as a possible truth, since this passage is pretty much the only one in the Bible which seems to indicate salvation by works could be possible. And, to my understanding once you've heard the Gospel you've got to have faith. So, who else could be saved by works than an unbeliever who never heard of Jesus?

However, the verse says "all the nations". You could argue it doesn't really make distinction between those who had heard the Gospel and those who had not heard it. For that reason I'd have to accept the WhiteWings interpretation as a possible truth, too.

And to make things even more complicated, there's a third way of interpreting Matt 25. According to some, it's not a judgement of individuals at all, but a judgement of nations as whole. Sheep nations, those who were Israel's friends during the Tribulation enter "life eonian" but goat nations, Israel's enemies (and those who did not support her at all) enter "chastening eonian".

As I said I don't really know how Matt. 25 should be interpreted, but I can't accept the interpretation it's about the Last Judgement since I firmly believe there are still things to happen between the Second Coming and the Last Judgement.
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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2010, 10:10:27 AM »
I accept LS' interpretation as a possible truth, since this passage is pretty much the only one in the Bible which seems to indicate salvation by works could be possible. And, to my understanding once you've heard the Gospel you've got to have faith. So, who else could be saved by works than an unbeliever who never heard of Jesus?
YLTJohn 14
6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

Maybe it should/could be discussed what exactly "through me" means; but for me it's clear from this verse that Jesus is always part of the salvation puzzle.
Quote
And to make things even more complicated, there's a third way of interpreting Matt 25. According to some, it's not a judgement of individuals at all, but a judgement of nations as whole. Sheep nations, those who were Israel's friends during the Tribulation enter "life eonian" but goat nations, Israel's enemies (and those who did not support her at all) enter "chastening eonian".
Nations are just groups of people... That stilll means people get judged twice. As a person and as being part of a nation.
That can lead to strange things if believing in Jesus is the only thing that's needed to be part of the 1st resurrection. Someone is deeply religious but never did a thing that wasn't for his own personal benefit. Never helped anyone. Even worse the person was a murderer. But as said a sincere believer. That peson would be resurrection and be seen as a saint? And then later judged for his works and go into the fire.
That would mean a murderer did live for a 1000 years in the Kingdom?
But it has to be said that the judgement of nations is supported by the 2nd/3rd chart on this page
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Romans 8:38-39, the ultimate verse against ET?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2010, 03:49:20 PM »
Murders like Saul/Paul and David are going to be in the kingdom. The love of Jesus takes away ALL sin. and neither death nor life can seperate us from the love of God/Christ.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"