Question about Matthew 25:31-46

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/topicseen/bible_threatenings_explained/the_sheep_the_goats_of_st._matt._25_1484.msg20527.html#msg20527

The punishment in St. Matthew 25, comes from the word κολαζω which means to prune and is used in a disciplinary sense and not a penal one.  μωρια would be used in a penal (vengeance) sense, not kolasis which means correction and is rooted in kolazo leading to the same result: purging and pruning.

[LS]

While I can appreciate how that line of reasoning works - and thank you for pointing me to it so I can understand - for me it comes back to, "what does the Bible say.  And for me, it is not evidence that the Lake of Fire can't mean annihilation.

In Peace
 

[CHB]

Hi LS,

I noticed that you do believe that death will be destroyed? If that is true how do you reckon the fact that there will be dead people who have been annihilated? No matter how you look at it, being annihilated is being dead. If one person remains dead then death hasn't been destroyed. When people are creamated they are dead wouldn't you say?  Once you have life and that life is taken away you are dead no matter how you die.

CHB

[LS]

Hi LS,

I noticed that you do believe that death will be destroyed? If that is true how do you reckon the fact that there will be dead people who have been annihilated? No matter how you look at it, being annihilated is being dead. If one person remains dead then death hasn't been destroyed. When people are creamated they are dead wouldn't you say?  Once you have life and that life is taken away you are dead no matter how you die.

CHB

Hi CHB - if death is "a state of being" from which one can be resurrected ... then I think that being annihilated is not a state of being.  Nothing remains to "be" dead, and there is no hope of resurrection.

I think that when one initially dies in this life, it doesn't matter if the body is buried, cremated or lost at sea - those are all clearly resurrected for judgment, as shown in Revelation 20:13:
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

[WhiteWings]

Hi CHB - if death is "a state of being" from which one can be resurrected ... then I think that being annihilated is not a state of being.  Nothing remains to "be" dead, and there is no hope of resurrection.

Hi Leading Saint, 
So if 100% of creation is annihilated then death has no victory because the people are "beyond dead"?
Does it means Jesus is a succesful saviour because nobody is dead? (they are beyond  dead and without hope)
You wrote that annihilated people have no hope. Neither do dead people. They can't think so they can't hope.
Dead people are equally dead as annihilated people. There is no difference between it. The only difference is that after annihilation Father doesn't decide to resurrect them.
So annihilated people = dead people = death has a sting and lots of victory = Hades is full.
You can claim there is a difference because God decided to never resurrect the annihilated people. But from the view of Mr. Death and Mr. Hades they are dead and they are forever filling Hades.
 

Maybe there is something to learn from the order in which things happen?
What do you think of this page? If you have no time to read it all just look at the last diagram. (don't forget to click the red link to enlarge the diagram.
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/All_about_eons.htm

[WhiteWings]

LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.

Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:

http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html

[WhiteWings]

Is Matthew 25:31-46 referring to the time after the second resurrection at the end of the Millennial Age of the Kingdom of God when the people who aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire?

http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html

[CHB]

Hi LS,

I noticed that you do believe that death will be destroyed? If that is true how do you reckon the fact that there will be dead people who have been annihilated? No matter how you look at it, being annihilated is being dead. If one person remains dead then death hasn't been destroyed. When people are cremated they are dead wouldn't you say?  Once you have life and that life is taken away you are dead no matter how you die.

CHB

Hi CHB - if death is "a state of being" from which one can be resurrected ... then I think that being annihilated is not a state of being.  Nothing remains to "be" dead, and there is no hope of resurrection.

I think that when one initially dies in this life, it doesn't matter if the body is buried, cremated or lost at sea - those are all clearly resurrected for judgment, as shown in Revelation 20:13:
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

LS, do you think God created all of these people knowing that he would annihilate them? if you knew your child would be tortured for as long as it lived, would you even have children? Isn't God much more merciful than we are?
 What does it say about God's judgment" It says that God will "judge the world IN RIGHTEOUSNESS". Those that are not righteous will become righteous. (Psalms 72:2) He shall judge they people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.  (Psalms 94:15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness. 

(Phil. 3:9) "Not having mine own righteousness , which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ".
This verse tells me that it is through the righteousness and faith of Christ that I am saved, not by my own righteousness. If that is true, then it is not dependent upon anything that I do. Therefore, if annihilation is true, God just chooses to annihilate those who he wants to annihilate, which doesn't sound fair to me, for we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  I say, since it is dependent upon Christ's righteousness and faith that all will be judged by that. Now, those who feel they have to save themselves will probably have to learn that it is up to Christ and not us. This is done through the lake of fire, where their works will be destroyed, not the person (1Cor. 3:13-15).

CHB

[DC]

Lately I've been trying to fit together as many pieces to this big puzzle as I can.  Matthew 25:31-46 is one of the most important pieces of that puzzle.  On close examination it does seem to be about the last judgment-the only stumbling block to me is that it doesn't mention the thousand years between the second coming and the White Throne Judgment.

When using a verse to prove something, I think it's very important to take a very close look at the context of the verse to see if it is about what you think it may be about.  There are four other verses that I think may be referring to the Lake of Fire, but I can't say for sure because I'm having a hard time figuring out the context of these verses.  Can someone who is better at this kind of thing take a close look at these verses and try to determine the likelyhood of the being about the Lake of Fire?  The 4 verses I am referring to are:

Malachi 3:2-4
"2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years."

1 Corithians 3:10-15
"10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. "

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Mark 9:49
"Everyone will be salted with fire."