Rich Man and Lazarus Discussed on National Radio by me.

[Brian]

Yes, it's The Narrow Path hosted by Steve Gregg, again. www.thenarrowpath.com
Today, 02/26/09, I called about Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man. (I'm the first caller) The discussion was based on the adamant assertion I hear over and over that "IT CAN'T BE A PARABLE BECAUSE JESUS USES A PROPER NAME!" End of story. But what's in a name? As I'm being educated Genesis through Esther (so far), I'm being taught that there is tremendous importance and significance in names used in the Bible. That the meaning of the name itself testifies to what's going on regarding the name. Jesus = God's Savior. Methuselah = "when he dies/died, it [the Flood] will be sent/has been sent". (Bet most of ya didn't know about that second one.)

Now first of all, a proper name is not used by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31. But two proper names are used; Lazarus and Abraham.

So, Lazarus. Lazarus is the Greek version of אלעזר, Eliezer.

So what?

Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer (a gentile) of Damascus?" Genesis 15:2

Well, listen for yourself. Go to the program archive for 02/26/09, which should be available in a day or two.

Hope I don't sound too nervous. I was at working against time, as something was about to happen that would've either badly interrupted me or forced me to hang up.
So it's a "miracle" that I was able to pull it off. It totally went against Murphy's law.

Also, my pastor who avidly insists that Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable, was listening the last time I was on the show, and well, you know... Him maybe not too happy with me. 
More importantly, hopefully I'm on the right track, and God isn't unhappy with me. 

[gregoryfl]

Hi Brian,

I believe you are indeed on the right track, as the parable has nothing to do with the state of the dead but rather a change in status. The Gentiles, represented by Lazarus, would receive the inheritance while Judah, who had 5 brothers, would be unable to be a part as long as they remained as they were.

Ron

[Tony N]

Brian, good job getting the word out and challenging people.

If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a true indication of what happens when one dies then so is the parable of the prodigal son who, when he died, went to the pig farm.

[Taffy]

Brian, good job getting the word out and challenging people.

If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a true indication of what happens when one dies then so is the parable of the prodigal son who, when he died, went to the pig farm.

 


I kinda Like parables..even the ones not seen

[Paul Hazelwood]

Brian, good job getting the word out and challenging people.

If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a true indication of what happens when one dies then so is the parable of the prodigal son who, when he died, went to the pig farm.

Grew up on a Farm,  not that bad of a deal.   

[WhiteWings]

Grew up on a Farm,  not that bad of a deal.   

Not for you. But ask your mother....
I managed to get my clothes dirty while they where still in the washing machine 
(My friends parents had a farm ages ago)

[WhiteWings]

Brain,

Does the show have many listners?
I think many listners get red in the face of anger when you speak. You lill' heretic 
But likely some start looking at things with an open mind. So perhaps you have sows a few seeds.
BTW don't forget to mention tentmaker.org a few times.
"........  as I wrote on my blog at TentMaker.org....."

[Tony N]

Brain,

Brain? 

[WhiteWings]

Sometimes it good to say soemthing nize 

[Brian]

Hi Brian,

I believe you are indeed on the right track, as the parable has nothing to do with the state of the dead but rather a change in status. The Gentiles, represented by Lazarus, would receive the inheritance while Judah, who had 5 brothers, would be unable to be a part as long as they remained as they were.

Ron

Some of this I got by reading other people's conclusions a long time ago. But what I was going on with this, was my own research from scratch as it were. It fell flat on the 5 brothers issue. Because while I did confirm the Bible segregates the sons of Leah, which would be Judah and five brothers. I connected fine linen and the priesthood with Judah, when it really connected with Levi. Of course as Levi was also one of the sons of Leah, it still works - but still seemed a little stretchy on the air. The bowling over part was the name used, its meaning and its connection to Abraham. That leaves little room for conjecture. The fact that both accountings/parables in Luke 16 start off with "There was a rich man...", was my own last minute discovery (not that someone else hasn't come across it too). I did try to be somewhat pacifistic in asserting this was still not a pretty story, and it did clearly put the guy in Hades where he was in torment and likened it to;
The Parable of the Net Mt. 13
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet Mt. 22
The Parable of the Ten Virgins Mt. 25
The Parable of the Talents Mt. 25
The Sheep and the Goats Mt. 25
Meaning just because it's a parable, it doesn't lose the power of its message. But that mainly the "it can't be a parable, because Jesus used a proper name" seems to be pure bunk.

[Brian]

Brain,

Does the show have many listners?
I think many listners get red in the face of anger when you speak. You lill' heretic 
But likely some start looking at things with an open mind. So perhaps you have sows a few seeds.
BTW don't forget to mention tentmaker.org a few times.
"........  as I wrote on my blog at TentMaker.org....."

Don't know how many listeners he has, but he should have lots. But I do know he gets calls in from different parts of the United States. He deserves to be a national or even international phenomenon.
Just the very nature of the man, makes him an extremely special radio personality. He's so not out to make money. This a man who's willing to drive 4 hours once a month, to host a Bible study in someone's house. You can bet I'll be there to meet him tomorrow. The best thing is, since he's not out to make a buck, you can listen to all of his radio shows and lectures for free at www.thenarrowpath.com, and even burn his material on CD (but hey, slip him a little money anyways).

[Brian]

Brain,

Brain? 

My last name is Less.

[Brian]

Well, I just listened to it... with trepidation. You know, expecting to end up burrying my face in my hands while bemoaning. But it turned out pretty good. It's interesting that at one point I was pushing the hell scenario, and Steve was debunking it. I do wish I had jumped on his saying to the effect, that there's so little said about hell in the New Testament, that's why something like this becomes so important to an ETer. I should have asked at that point "well, what does the Old Testament say about hell?" To which I'm sure he would have answered something like, "the OT has even less to say about hell, than the NT. Anyways, I'm happy. Hopefully the Lord is happy. And I'll have to find out what my pastor and the elder who's been ministering to me, feel, if they heard. If they didn't, I can certainly make sure they do. I can't think of a possibly better way to get my foot in the door to broach this subject with them.

Anyways, for the rest of you wanting to challenge hell doctrine; my suggestion would be to remember what Jesus said about being a gentle as a dove and wise as a serpent. No one in my opinion is going to get anywhere with something like this, expressing too much fervor and conjecture. You know, try not to come off as a raving lunatic. 

[claypot]

I checked out the radio show. Good stuff Brother.

For my part I still need to see these words of Jesus as explaining my very essence otherwise it is just a good story teaching some moral principal. I need to know these words are scalpels in the hands of a perfect surgeon. I need to believe the words of Scripture are alive and able to create me as I read them.

While listening to the radio show I kept wondering what would happen if you said something like Lazuras is the divine in people and the rich man is our carnal essence and even as the carnal abounds in this phase of our existence it will be different later on.

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

What do you think Brian? I know we must be careful in how we present things so as not to be haughty or presumptuous but we must also be careful not to be too lenient either.

cp

[Tony N]

Brain,
After listening to the radio show I noticed you said there are plenty of parables about hell: the wedding banquet, the 10 virgins etc.

Why do you think those parables are about hell? I thought they were about the kingdom and being prepared for the groom's return. Those not ready are cast out of the kingdom. Being cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth does not mean they are in some sort of hell nor Gehenna not the lake of fire but are outside the kingdom and having to live among the nations.

[Brian]

I checked out the radio show. Good stuff Brother.

For my part I still need to see these words of Jesus as explaining my very essence otherwise it is just a good story teaching some moral principal. I need to know these words are scalpels in the hands of a perfect surgeon. I need to believe the words of Scripture are alive and able to create me as I read them.

While listening to the radio show I kept wondering what would happen if you said something like Lazuras is the divine in people and the rich man is our carnal essence and even as the carnal abounds in this phase of our existence it will be different later on.

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

What do you think Brian? I know we must be careful in how we present things so as not to be haughty or presumptuous but we must also be careful not to be too lenient either.
cp

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever I'd be allowed to continue. My advice is for you to call him and see for yourself. He's the most reasonable, patient and respectful person of his caliber, you could discuss anything with. Steve encourages people to challenge the Bible, theology, Christian philosophy or him personally.

[Brian]

Brain,
After listening to the radio show I noticed you said there are plenty of parables about hell: the wedding banquet, the 10 virgins etc.

Why do you think those parables are about hell? I thought they were about the kingdom and being prepared for the groom's return. Those not ready are cast out of the kingdom. Being cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth does not mean they are in some sort of hell nor Gehenna not the lake of fire but are outside the kingdom and having to live among the nations.

What I meant was a lot of people present them as such, or interpret them as such. I like to challenge things I believe in or don't believe in from an opposing perspective, to see how well what I believe in holds water. You noticed how he shot a lot of that down, which is what I was looking for. I had the great privilege of having dinner with him tonight and then enjoying a four hour go around with him at someone's house. A lot of the conversation ended up with hell not being traditional hell, which was pure delight. But I still challenged him on a few points, because it gave the discussion more substance then if I just agreed with everything he had to say (which I actually did BTW). But it was like, "what about Rev 14:11 or Rev 22:15?" "What about what big shot so-in-so says?"

[Tony N]

While listening to the radio show I kept wondering what would happen if you said something like Lazuras is the divine in people and the rich man is our carnal essence and even as the carnal abounds in this phase of our existence it will be different later on.

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

What if that wasn't what Jesus was trying to tell His listeners?

[claypot]

While listening to the radio show I kept wondering what would happen if you said something like Lazuras is the divine in people and the rich man is our carnal essence and even as the carnal abounds in this phase of our existence it will be different later on.

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

What if that wasn't what Jesus was trying to tell His listeners?

Tony, don't start! 

What if it was?

cp

[Tony N]

While listening to the radio show I kept wondering what would happen if you said something like Lazuras is the divine in people and the rich man is our carnal essence and even as the carnal abounds in this phase of our existence it will be different later on.

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

What if that wasn't what Jesus was trying to tell His listeners?

Tony, don't start! 

What if it was?

cp

If it was I'd have known about it by now. 

[claypot]

While listening to the radio show I kept wondering what would happen if you said something like Lazuras is the divine in people and the rich man is our carnal essence and even as the carnal abounds in this phase of our existence it will be different later on.

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

What if that wasn't what Jesus was trying to tell His listeners?

Tony, don't start! 

What if it was?

cp

If it was I'd have known about it by now. 

Always the joker!

cp

[Tony N]

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus according to cp:

Luk 16:19-31  Now a certain carnal essence was rich and he dressed in purple and cambric, daily making merry splendidly."  (20)  Now there was a certain poor essence named divine essence, who had been cast at his portal, having ulcers,  (21)  and yearning to be satisfied from the scraps which are falling from the carnal essence's table. But the curs also, coming, licked divine essence's ulcers."  (22)  Now the divine essence came to die and divine essence is carried away by the messengers into Abraham's bosom. Now the carnal essence also died, and was entombed."  (23)  And in the unseen, lifting up its eyes, existing in torments, carnal essence is seeing Abraham from afar, and divine essence in his bosom."  (24)  And it shouting, said, 'Father Abraham, be merciful to carnal essence, and send divine essence that it should be dipping the tip of its finger in water and cooling carnal essence's tongue, for carnal essence is pained in this flame.'"  (25)  Now Abraham said, 'carnal essence, be reminded that you got your good things in your life, and divine essence likewise evil things. Yet now here divine essence is being consoled, yet you are in pain."  (26)  And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established, so that those wanting to cross hence to carnal essence may not be able, nor yet those thence may be ferrying to us.'"  (27)  Yet carnal essence said, 'I am asking you then, father, that you should be sending divine essence into my father's house,  (28)  for I have five brothers, so that divine essence may be certifying to them, lest they also may be coming into this place of torment.'"  (29)  Yet Abraham is saying to carnal essence, 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them!'"  (30)  Yet carnal essence said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting.'"  (31)  Yet he said to him, 'If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

Carnal essence and divine essence died.

cp, it don't work.

[claypot]

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus according to cp:

Luk 16:19-31  Now a certain carnal essence was rich and he dressed in purple and cambric, daily making merry splendidly."  (20)  Now there was a certain poor essence named divine essence, who had been cast at his portal, having ulcers,  (21)  and yearning to be satisfied from the scraps which are falling from the carnal essence's table. But the curs also, coming, licked divine essence's ulcers."  (22)  Now the divine essence came to die and divine essence is carried away by the messengers into Abraham's bosom. Now the carnal essence also died, and was entombed."  (23)  And in the unseen, lifting up its eyes, existing in torments, carnal essence is seeing Abraham from afar, and divine essence in his bosom."  (24)  And it shouting, said, 'Father Abraham, be merciful to carnal essence, and send divine essence that it should be dipping the tip of its finger in water and cooling carnal essence's tongue, for carnal essence is pained in this flame.'"  (25)  Now Abraham said, 'carnal essence, be reminded that you got your good things in your life, and divine essence likewise evil things. Yet now here divine essence is being consoled, yet you are in pain."  (26)  And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established, so that those wanting to cross hence to carnal essence may not be able, nor yet those thence may be ferrying to us.'"  (27)  Yet carnal essence said, 'I am asking you then, father, that you should be sending divine essence into my father's house,  (28)  for I have five brothers, so that divine essence may be certifying to them, lest they also may be coming into this place of torment.'"  (29)  Yet Abraham is saying to carnal essence, 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them!'"  (30)  Yet carnal essence said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone should be going to them from the dead, they will be repenting.'"  (31)  Yet he said to him, 'If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

Carnal essence and divine essence died.

cp, it don't work.

That sounds very good and to the point Tony. I may also add that when Moses and the prophets are mentioned you could also use divine essence.

What doesn't work? I read your rendering twice and it got better each time.

I personally have a lot going for me in this physical realm. I often ignore or belittle the spiritual essence within my being. I will reap what I sow.

Tony, you do believe a person reaps what he sows don't you?

cp

[Brian]

If you said that God is actually telling us how we are made so we can think on it and use this knowledge to grow in Him I wonder if you would have been allowed to continue at all.

I'm not sure I'm following you, although Tony spelled it out some. I don't do very well with conjecture and esoteric implications. I'm too pragmatic for that. I like interpreting scripture in a way that would this stand up in a court of law, so to speak. Fact: Both stories in Luke 16 start out with "There was a certain rich man". Fact: Lazarus = Eliezer. Fact: A gentile named Eliezer was Abram's (Abraham's) legal inheritor before the Abrahamic covenant. Fact: The coming of the Messiah reverted the Abrahamic covenant from Isaac, Jacob/Israel back to the gentiles i.e. Eliezer as foretold in Old Testament prophecy. Now there's a considerable length to which this can be taken, fact by fact, but just by what's been established so far gives ample evidence to establish this as a parable about the Jews forfeiting their Abrahamic inheritance and it going back to the original inheritors, the gentiles. Just the same as many other parables. What's ironic to me, is this seems to be, when going fact by scriptural fact, to be one of if not the least esoteric of all parables.

What do you think Brian? I know we must be careful in how we present things so as not to be haughty or presumptuous but we must also be careful not to be too lenient either.

I agree. I think one needs to avoid being either presumptuous or milquetoast.

[Brian]

I checked out the radio show. Good stuff Brother.

For my part I still need to see these words of Jesus as explaining my very essence otherwise it is just a good story teaching some moral principal. I need to know these words are scalpels in the hands of a perfect surgeon. I need to believe the words of Scripture are alive and able to create me as I read them.

In my opinion, none of it is about you. It's all about Him. You are nothing. God is everything. You become something by becoming what God wants you to be. Loving God beyond all things, especially yourself is what gives you essence and purpose.