Author Topic: the Nazarenes  (Read 2186 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
the Nazarenes
« on: March 03, 2009, 07:09:00 PM »
I met an interesting guy in a German forum.
He studied about Christianity, his belief is a kind of unorthodox.
He believes the Aramaic bible (Pechitta) is the inspired version, he further seems to believe in reincarnation, that sheol is purgatory and that there is no everlasting damnation, so you might call him an universalist.

He wrote that there were 15 Jewish Christian bishops in Jerusalem, I think they were the Nazarenes, he mentioned this book:

Yeshua, A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Chruch, by Dr. Ron Moseley

has anyone read this?

I think there is very few known about the early Jewish Christians - especially this Jewish bishops, is there any hint, that they were universalists?

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Gender: Female
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 08:25:31 PM »
 :cloud9: No, but sounds interesting. I know Sheol is purgatory. Reincarnation I'm at odds with. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 08:37:54 PM »
The early Jewish Christians are very interesting.  From the limited reading I've done, it looks to me like their mysticism was intentionally destroyed by the Roman church, in fact, most of them were killed for heresy.

This mysticism is now being revived.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, I think it's very reasonable to assume we have a genetic memory, that is, a memory of lives lived before and passed down in our genetic code.

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 10:52:07 PM »
many Christian (and Jewish) mystics seem to like the idea of reincarnation, this man also has a kind of mystical belief, but if the very early Jewish Christians believed in UR would be very good, not so good if they believed in everlasting punishment but I don't think so.

I would call Origen a mystic aswell, but I guess the Nazarenes, or however they have been called, must have existed long before him.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 11:00:26 PM by sven »

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1831
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 02:13:02 AM »
The idea of reincarnation, to me, is far worse than the ET folks idea of hell.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8820
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 02:39:39 AM »
I don't see any scriptural support for it either...I do think I see support for a sort of pre-existence, due to our spirit will "return to God from whence it came"...I wouldn't know what all that would entail though...but I really don't think I was ever a banana or a bug  :laughing7:...being silly, of course (although some would probably argue that I was/am  :banana:).  Is there any scriptural support for a type of reincarnation that I've missed, because I don't know of any?  Mol, you got somethin'?  Anyway, wrt the OP...interesting about the Nazarenes...I think I'll research a bit...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 02:55:56 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11244
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 03:06:13 AM »
Not specifically.  There is something going on with John the Baptist, where Jesus identifies him as Elijah and an angel says he has the spirit of Elijah.  I'm not sure what is up with that.  I'd like to see someone more knowledgeable weigh in on it.

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Matthew 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.



Also, there is indication that some Jews of the time believed in reincarnation.



Matthew 16:14
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.



Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8820
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 03:10:50 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, thanks.  So, whether they had a real basis, or if it was just an unfounded belief/superstition, who knows?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1831
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 03:44:42 AM »
I "believe" (in the sense that I think about it, I suspect it, I hope it, I ponder it, I wonder about it, etc.) that we pre-existed. I tend to see the story of Adam and Eve as our story. Not just our ancestors... but something that happened to each and every one of us. We were created, we were in a paradise of sorts... and we sought to know more. So one day we wandered on over to that tree of knowledge and "plucked the fruit and ate it" and that action caused us to be born on earth. I believe we are going BACK to where we came from when we die. This earthly physical life is a journey and when we go back, we will maybe finally be COMPLETE, the way God intended us to be.

I just don't think we started to exist the minute we were born... I think God knew us beforehand. I tend to think there is more to the "I knew you before you were formed in the womb" verse. I don't base this idea on that verse, at ALL. But thinking of that verse in relation to this... I think there is more to it than meets the eye.
and I think we will remember our true selves, the SPIRIT that we are... when we die and return.
I think that all souls end up wandering over to that tree of knowledge and that's what earth is for.
A schoolyard. To learn.

I see it as all being part of God's perfect plan.

Well, like I said it's a hunch, something I suspect, something I ponder. I can't quite debate it... because it's nothing I try to spread as TRUTH!!  :laughing7: It's just something I carry around with me and take out and examine from time to time. Just something to ponder about and wonder about. God gave us imaginations for a reason... :happy3:

 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 03:47:17 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 07:25:23 PM »
I don't see any scriptural support for it either...I do think I see support for a sort of pre-existence, due to our spirit will "return to God from whence it came"...I wouldn't know what all that would entail though...
Return doesn't state how often it has returned before.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 07:56:29 PM »
Jesus' disciples seem to have believed in reincarnation:

John 9:1

And as he passed on, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?

James 3:6 mentions a wheel of life, or maybe birth or origin - trochos ho genesis - which some interpret as a hint on reincarnation (Strong number 1078)

but my intention was not to talk about reincarnation, I just was interested in the very early Judeo-Christians, if there is anything known about their eschatology

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8133
  • Gender: Female
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 11:59:13 PM »
Jesus' disciples seem to have believed in reincarnation:

John 9:1 And as he passed on, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?

 :cloud9: And He said, NEITHER, but this was done to show the glory of God......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8820
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2009, 08:09:13 AM »
In my looking, found some interesting info, and this is an excerpt from a summary post I made on another thread..."the Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, had been brought up through temple worship, circumcision, the Law.  Although now saved through grace by the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, in reality having spiritually passed into the New Covenant, still, they had walked in the ways of the Old Covenant, and actually continued to hold to many of the customs of the OC and the Law...yes, the Law..  The history of the Nazarenes shows that although they were known as the people of the Way, they still held to many of their Jewish customs...including continuing to worship in the temple!  As you say, and as I was suggesting, primarily, Peter's ministry was to them, including his addressing some different realities that existed for them that did not exist for the gentiles, to whom Paul primarily  ministered.  No difference in What saved them, Who the source of their salvation was...yet a different people with different backgrounds, and truly different histories with God Himself, as it were. 

The Nazarenes eventually scattered, the temple was destroyed, and one would think Christendom would have become a more united body..well, enter the RCC, then the Eastern Orthodox split, then the Reformation, then the Baptists, Methodists, AG, etc..."
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 09:25:05 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2009, 10:20:21 AM »
I've been looking a bit into reincarnation. Most reference don't get any better as "could be read as"

Leviticus 24:20  Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

In Genesis we read: "And for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them."
Although many now take this to mean that they were given clothes as the cavemen are depicted wearing, the Church originally taught that the real meaning of this verse was that God created physical bodies–the human organism–for them to inhabit, and thus they continued in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth upon the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Jesus and Adam are the same?
John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Job 1:21  And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither:

In the 6th century, the 2nd Council of Constantinople officially declared reincarnation a unorthodoxy
and the principle of reincarnation was officially banished by the Christian Church. It was considered to be too
much of an influence from the East and was planned to tighten the church's hold upon the human mind by
telling people their salvation had to be accomplished in one incarnation and one lifetime, and if they didn't
make it, they would go to Hell. It seems that the Church was afraid that the idea of `past lives` would weaken
and undermine the Church's growing power and influence by affording followers too much time to seek
salvation. During the same Early Christian Era, notable Church fathers like Origin, Clement of Alexander and
St. Jerome accepted and believed in the reincarnation principle. It seems like the repression of past life
teachings has been mainly political in the Christian Church's and not spiritual.

Even in the New Testament there is sufficient evidence for reincarnation. In St. John IX-2, a
question is put to Jesus by his disciples—which did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born
blind? This refers to two popular theories of time—one, that of Moses who taught that the sin of
fathers would descend on children to the third and fourth generation, and the other, that of the
doctrine of reincarnation. Jesus merely says that neither that man's sin nor his father's sin was
the cause of his blindness; he does not deny the pre-existence of that man. Lord Jesus indicates
that John took the reincarnation of Elijah.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 10:37:13 AM »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 07:15:38 PM »
the guy in mentioned in my first post gave this link:

http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm

It's amazing how many apocryphia exist, this sometimes confuses me
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 09:12:21 PM by sven »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 07:33:29 PM »
Yep.

The same church that invented ET and many pagan rituals also decided what is Apocrypha and what not.
I wouldn't be suprised that during the selection of books the Church had a hidden (political) agenda.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 07:45:58 PM »
to be honest, I think when the canon was defined (about 367 AD ?), the teaching of eternal hell was not yet the official doctrine of the church ( this occured 533 AD as far as I know), so I don't think this doctrine influenced the canon.

some of the apocryphia also teach hell like Henoch or especially 2nd /4th Esdras and they are not in the canon aswell.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 08:11:12 PM »
Sven,

It was more in general what I wrote. For example can also includes hints to reincarnation.
Leaving things out can also be a stepping stone to other false believes.
As an extreme example leave out all the verses in the Bible that hint toward love...

And even if the books contain nothing of value it's not for mankind to decide what of Gods words have value or not.
I understands some books will be fake for sure. But I have doubts that's so for all books left out. Let's just say I don't have much trust in humanity....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 08:57:22 PM »
I quess we're far off topic now, it never was my intention to discuss reincarnation or the canon; but anyway, something makes me wonder: modern Christians seem to be obsessed with the Revelation of John, while in the early church this book doesn't seem to have such influence - some considered it to be not authentic as far as I know, how did this come, or am I wrong?

ps: what do you think about Chapter 88:12?

For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit, through the ages.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 09:01:56 PM by sven »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 09:04:51 PM »
I quess we're far off topic now, it never was my intention to discuss reincarnation or the canon;
You mentioned it in your first post. No big deal for me I'll let the yet to be reincarnated rest from now on :laughing7:



Quote
but anyway, something makes me wonder: modern Christians seem to be obsessed with the Revelation of John, while in the early church this book doesn't seem to have such influence - some considered it to be not authentic as far as I know, how did this come, or am I wrong?
IIRC the reason is that Revelation was not written by John (because of illness or something).
John dictated it and someone wrote it down. That person had a different writing style as John. So some tought, and some still think, that Revelation is not from John.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12654
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: the Nazarenes
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 09:17:51 PM »
I make no claims of right or wrong because I simply have no clue what's right.
So purely as information:

http://www.sonofman.org/reveal.htm
http://mikeblume.com/revdate.htm
http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/NT-John.htm

There are more links but I'll stop now because I'm perhaps I'm already breaking the "don't reject part of the Bible" rule.
BTW I'm not. At worst only the authorship.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...