Author Topic: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')  (Read 1763 times)

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Offline eaglesway

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What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« on: November 29, 2012, 09:06:44 AM »
Love is free from constraint, because love does no ill. To be perfected in love is to transcend all else because nothing is more righteous than love. It is to be filled to the fulness of God, because God is love. No one who says, "Because i am free in love I will sin" understands anything. No one who says, "I will not sin because of restraints(laws)" knows anything. It is only by the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law, that we can be free to love in righteousness(pure motivation). The glorious liberty of the sons of God is that they have the love of the Son of God reigning freely within- they love righteousness and love the Father- that is the transformation. That is the destination of the elect of God- conformed to the image of God in Christ, the goal of salvation. Only as long as we are imperfect in love... and of course to some extent we all are........will we need the law. When we are perfected in love, we will be driven to yield to God and serve our brothers because of the living water of God flowing out of our innermost being like a waterfall. "Come, drink freely of the water of life..."


(after splitting, I edited each of the first few posts to change the name of thread  from "Re: Will"...)


« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:20:06 AM by jabcat »
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Offline jabcat

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What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 09:56:27 AM »
Love is free from constraint, because love does no ill. To be perfected in love is to transcend all else because nothing is more righteous than love. It is to be filled to the fulness of God, because God is love. No one who says, "Because i am free in love I will sin" understands anything. No one who says, "I will not sin because of restraints(laws)" knows anything. It is only by the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law, that we can be free to love in righteousness(pure motivation). The glorious liberty of the sons of God is that they have the love of the Son of God reigning freely within- they love righteousness and love the Father- that is the transformation. That is the destination of the elect of God- conformed to the image of God in Christ, the goal of salvation. Only as long as we are imperfect in love... and of course to some extent we all are........will we need the law. When we are perfected in love, we will be driven to yield to God and serve our brothers because of the living water of God flowing out of our innermost being like a waterfall. "Come, drink freely of the water of life..."
 


I re-read your post a time or two, to grasp/understand what you were saying.  Is it fair to say, 1) we're not fully there yet (even Paul said what he did was by compulsion as a servant/slave - freed from bondage of sin, but now in servitude to the Master)  2) it occurs when we reach full maturity/are transformed into immortality ("in the twinkling of an eye, when the last trumpet sounds..mortal takes on immortality") and 3) at that point we will no longer need a taskmaster [* needful limits, constraints, directions as now], as we will be so much more like Him and exactly what He wants us to be - so filled with Him through His miraculous completion of us - that He will flow out of us "naturally", as He has transformed us and filled us to overflowing?

*Just thinking about this asterisk part;  perhaps as we grow and mature in our walk ("growing in grace and knowledge" 2 Peter 3:18) we need less and less of the limits and constraints.  Because as He fills us and as our nature becomes more like His, and as our wills yield to His, it does flow more naturally and freely from that relationship and His infilling (although still not yet as to the point of full maturity/immortality - which is yet future).
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:11:06 AM by jabcat »

Offline Ross

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What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 10:23:00 AM »
Gal 3;;23- 26  " Now before faith came we were perpetually guarded under the law, kept in custody in preparation for the faith that was destined to be revealed, so the law served as our trainer until Christ came, that we might be declared righteous by faith. But now that the faith has come, we are NO LONGER under a trainer.For IN CHRIST Jesus you are ALL sons of God through faith."

Gal 4;6,7 " And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying Abba! Father! Therefore, you are NO LONGER A SLAVE but a son, and if a son then an heir by the aid of God, though Christ."
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:11:23 AM by jabcat »
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Offline jabcat

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What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 10:29:09 AM »
now that the faith has come, we are NO LONGER under a trainer.

I think 'taskmaster' was a poor choice of words in my post.  I wasn't comfortable when I used it.  Not sure it will matter in the whole scope of the discussion, but I've edited it.

Anyway, yeah, we have those scrips, for sure. Isn't the first one specifically drawing a contrast between grace (the law of love/written on our hearts) and the keeping of THE Law prior to the cross?

What I'm really getting at (perhaps poorly) is within the context of the OP, [free] will; how Paul (and other scrips) talk about being free, yet also about being a slave, being compelled...how to reconcile those verses.  I've been suggesting "free to enjoy relationship, protection, lack of consequences for disobedience, penalty for sin paid, etc.", yet still being within God's boundaries, directives, guidance - and when spiritually reborn, even compelled by the law of love to be obedient (the Holy Spirit guiding us).  I'm suggesting we're not completely free to do as we please, because "He who has begun in a good work in you will complete it", "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith", etc...

Free yet not free?  Seems to me like we can be a free slave.   :bigGrin:


Then yes, Gal. 4:6,7 is in the following link (earlier in the thread), along with Paul, Timothy, Peter, and James calling themselves slaves!  How do we reconcile?  I've taken my best shot at it. :sweat: :)  Goodreport, where are you on this?  I'm going to venture you've got some good thoughts on it! :wink3:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/will/msg145364/#msg145364
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:11:34 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 01:48:51 PM »
Very cool topic.  The ministry of the Apostles:  Fools for Christ's sake



This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
 
6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
 
8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you! 9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute. 11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, 12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; 13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.
 
14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17 That is why I sent you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church. 18 Some are arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.



"ministers/servants" [of Christ]

G5257
υπηρέτης
hupēretēs
hoop-ay-ret'-ace
From G5259 and a derivative of ερέσσω eressō (to row); an under oarsman, that is, (genitive case) subordinate (assistant, sexton, constable): - minister, officer, servant.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 02:06:36 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 02:38:45 PM »
Discipline, indeed!   :thumbsup:

But, the smallest one is always the coxswain.

Row, row, row!



cox·swain(kksn, -swn)
n.
1. A person who usually steers a ship's boat and has charge of its crew.
2. A person in a racing shell who usually directs the rest of the crew.
[Middle English:  servant; see swain.]


Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

--Jn 15:20
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 02:52:08 PM by Molly »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 04:00:49 PM »
Discipline is where the word disciple comes from - or is it the other way around? I forget
Let me throw out this possibility.
"God calls things that not yet are as if they are already." Perhaps we aren't "adopted" (or rather, the adoption isn't final) until "this mortal puts on immortality."
Before in unbelief, we were slaves to sin and we couldn't help but break the law.
After Christ we are still slaves  - but now slaves to Christ and since there are no laws to break (we are not under the law) we are free from the law which brought death. (The soul that sins shall die) We were also slaves to our fear of death.
(Paul's favorite expression-> "But Now" we are free to be slaves of Love
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 04:11:26 PM »
I had trouble understanding what I wrote so I'm trying again :sigh:
Before Christ, we were slaves of sin. It was a cruel owner that would kill us and made our lives miserable.
In Christ, we are no longer slaves to sin. Christ bought us from the cruel owner and has given us our freedom from that owner.
But now, we are slaves of the best, most loving, caring, owner a slave could have. He loves us so much that he has set in motion adoption proceedings and technically we are his sons. Safe and secure. "Everyone's got to serve somebody, devil or God" "Better to serve one day in the court of the Holy, righteous King than a thousand elsewhere."The Lifegiver"
Well, I'm wandering again.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 06:57:54 PM by ded2daworld »
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 05:12:25 PM »
BODY....G4983.. sōma... the body (as a sound whole) slave

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 07:54:27 PM »
Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those who are  led by the spirit even these are the sons of God.

The testimony of the son of God is.......


"Because I have loved righteousness and hated iniquity you have anointed me with the oil of gladness above all my fellows".


The goal of salvation in Christ has never been "to better follow the law".

It has always been to walk in the Spirit.

The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you do not know where it is going
or from whence it goes......SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the spirit.(jn 3:5)


Jesus equates being born of the spirit with entering the kingdom of God. He describes walking in the Spirit as abandonment, freedom-  not freedom TO sin but rather freedom FROM sin because of the ascendancy of the Spirit empowering us to walk in freely given love.

When Jesus reigns upon the throne of man(heart) love becomes the motivation for everything and it SETS US FREE FROM SIN.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts(emptiness). If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit(fulness). Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another(futility).
(Gal 5:22-26)


"If you continue in my word you will know the truth and the truth will set you free"

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.(Eph 3:14-19)

Filled up to all the fulness of God? Is this possible? Is Paul speaking only of the resurrection? Read the next verses!

Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:20,21)



When we read the wonders of the church in Acts, do we deceive ourselves into thinking they were just really excited about Christ and dedicated to serve Him. IMO, This would be a GRAVE ERROR.

They were FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD. Anointed. They were free from fear(proclaimed the word boldly). They were free from greed(had all things in common). They were consumed with LOVE FOR GOD AND ONE ANOTHER(they were all as one heart and one soul).

This LOVE was the torch that drew people to them(the Lord added daily to the church such as should be saved).

This FREEDOM drove the joy that was their strength.

The REASON was the overflow of the HOLY SPIRIT which had been poured out on them in abundance.

"The love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit who is given us".(Romans 5:5)


"Tell me this, the Spirit that woks miracles among you, did you receive it through works of the law or by hearing with faith?"(Gal 3:2)

".....faith which works through love...."(Gal 5:6)


All we lack for this freedom is the emptiness. To be emptied is the prerequisite, the "acceptable sacrifice" upon which the flame of the Holy Spirit will settle.

So the potter works the vessel upon the wheel. The wineskins burst and the precious vintage runs to the ground. Until the vessel has become like unto Jesus, humbled, seeking nothing for self. Until the wineskin is fresh and new- newness of life not letter, love not law, reality not religion.

The law cannot kill the ego. Only love can. God will not share His glory with any flesh- so we see little of the Spirit, lots of religious flesh parading around in filthy garments like the King's New Clothes.

The world stands by and says- "Hey, those people are naked" and so it goes on and on. 

THANK GOD there was an early rain followed by the Latter Rains- pray unto the Lord of the Sabboath that He will send laborers into the harvest, and send the rain of the Spirit....pray for one another that God help us with emptiness :o)

The reason there is so much about water and wind and freedom when you read bout the Spirit in the scriptures is because to walk in the Spirit is to walk in the love of Christ, subject only to God who is love, and love sets us utterly and eternally FREE.

The Spirit and the Bride say "Come, DRINK FREELY OF THE WATER OF LIFE".

"For freedom Christ has set you free. Why submit again unto a yoke of bondage?"








« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 08:08:49 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline jabcat

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 09:19:17 PM »

"For freedom Christ has set you free. Why submit again unto a yoke of bondage?"

Much in agreement with all spoken in all the posts, including yours John.  Great.  However, this last line still points out (to me) the (for lack of a better word) "dilemma".

Jesus did say who He sets free is free indeed.  But He also said, although it was "easy", that He still had a yoke.  As mentioned, Paul also said don't despise discipline, and who the Father loves He disciplines.

So would this make sense as a progression?

1) total discipline/constraint - even "bondage" in the Law
2) freed from the Law, freed from the grip of sin, made a servant (slave) to the law of love and to the Holy Spirit's direct, specific work and guidance in the believers' heart and lives [also, Jesus' yoke is easy compared to the pain of sin; His love, peace, joy available for believers who walk in the Spirit and live in the Kingdom.  And His Spirit helps and comforts us.  Still, I don't see this as without any constraints, guidance, expectations.  :2c:]
3) growing in grace and knowledge, being more and more filled with the Spirit and walking therein - brings less attention to (and need for) "outside" discipline, as it flows more naturally and freely from us
4) when mortal takes on immortality, we will one day be perfected in Him and minister even MORE freely as He just flows through us and from us
5) however, we will never be without a "Master", as everything is handed over to the Father, and all - including Jesus - is subjected to His Kingdom that has no end
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:22:44 PM by jabcat »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 09:33:31 PM »
IMO, Submission to authority made be the keyphrase.
Before Johns death, (Stepfather to Jesus) Jesus allowed John to have authority over him.
Before Christ, we allow sin, selfishness, and wicked thoughts to have authority over us and we in essence, submit to the "yoke of bondage" which would eventually destroy us.
With Christ, We are submitting to a new and higher(highest) authority. And have a different master - one that gives us eternal life.
It's like Paul says we can't have 2 masters and King of Kings and Lord of Lords would be almost meaningless if we(all of us) were not subject to the authority of God. Jesus the son, is always subject to the Father yet, being God, how can you get freer than that? :Chinscratch:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline jabcat

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 09:38:14 PM »
I had just typed the following ded before seeing your post.  So I'll comment quickly.  Yeah, maybe so.  Paul said we were slaves to sin, now we're slaves to what is right [God's will].  As I suggested, sort of tongue in cheek - "free, yet not free..a free slave". 

I had typed (and it now may be incidental, after your post, which I believe is a good summary);   "Hmmm...was Jesus totally free?  "Not my will, yours be done"..Is he currently subjected to the Father, or not at all now?   For me it's hard to tell by this scrip;

Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God's authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.  1 Cor. 15:28   I thought He already was subjected.  Or did that change after His crucifixion and ascension somehow?   :dontknow:    Anyway, my point I guess is, was Jesus totally free when He walked on earth, or as a God/human, did He have some of the constraints we still have, i.e., having a Master?"

Are there degrees (and different types) of freedom?  [I think so - and to muddy the water and cross the threads again  :punish: ; I see that tying back into our will - which I believe has varying amounts of freedom, while being limited - and ultimately under His control].   :Chinscratch:

 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:48:15 PM by jabcat »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 10:38:19 PM »

"For freedom Christ has set you free. Why submit again unto a yoke of bondage?"

Much in agreement with all spoken in all the posts, including yours John.  Great.  However, this last line still points out (to me) the (for lack of a better word) "dilemma".

Jesus did say who He sets free is free indeed.  But He also said, although it was "easy", that He still had a yoke.  As mentioned, Paul also said don't despise discipline, and who the Father loves He disciplines.

So would this make sense as a progression?

1) total discipline/constraint - even "bondage" in the Law
2) freed from the Law, freed from the grip of sin, made a servant (slave) to the law of love and to the Holy Spirit's direct, specific work and guidance in the believers' heart and lives [also, Jesus' yoke is easy compared to the pain of sin; His love, peace, joy available for believers who walk in the Spirit and live in the Kingdom.  And His Spirit helps and comforts us.  Still, I don't see this as without any constraints, guidance, expectations.  :2c:]
3) growing in grace and knowledge, being more and more filled with the Spirit and walking therein - brings less attention to (and need for) "outside" discipline, as it flows more naturally and freely from us
4) when mortal takes on immortality, we will one day be perfected in Him and minister even MORE freely as He just flows through us and from us
5) however, we will never be without a "Master", as everything is handed over to the Father, and all - including Jesus - is subjected to His Kingdom that has no end

Well we are close :o). The Yoke is love for God and love for one another. Jesus fulfilled the law in that and brings us into His fulness so we are in a diminishing state of subjection that is transforming into ultimate total freedom- unreserved universal love is the end of all this, what Paul called God becoming ALL IN ALL. The kingdom of God ends in that- God is ALL IN ALL. At that time all rule, power and authority are abolished(IMO).

The reason for that is debatable perhaps.

Some see that as- God is OVER ALL rather than God is ALL IN ALL.

I see those as two distinctly separate things. Now God is OVER ALL.

Then He will be ALL IN ALL.

My view of that is that authority will be DONE AWAY because there will be no need for it in a universe finally COMPLETELY ONE in the love of God.

Example: If I am greater than you in stature, then I may enforce my authority upon you. However, if you are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT with me I will never need to use my stature. If you become COMPLETELY ONE with me, then the utilities of enforcement will be DONE AWAY- as they are no longer necessary. The reason for their existence has EVAPORATED and is no more.

IMO, This is what Jesus was teaching when He said "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE" and, "IF YOU SEE ME YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER".

IMO, He was not making Himself equal to God in STATURE("The Father is greater than I"), He was making Himself equal to God in NATURE, and in ADMINISTRATIVE AUTHORITY( "the Father has given me all authority in heaven and earth").

In 1 Cor 15 it clearly states that after the last adversary is subjected(brought into the AGREEMENT) then Jesus will RETURN THE KINGDOM TO THE FATHER and ALL RULE POWER AND AUTHORITY will be ABOLISHED and God will be ALL IN ALL.....for from Him through Him and To Him are all things. IMO, The END/GOAL of it all is TOTAL FREEDOM because of TOTAL AGREEMENT in the LOVE COVENANT sealed by the blood of Christ. In other words(as I see it) TOTAL UNITY not ENDLESS AUTHORITY.

This is why the voice of God is depicted as the "rushing of many waters, the voices of ten thousands of ten thousands(10,000 to the 10,000th power) praising God. No one makes a drop of water flow downstream within the river. I think we will all flow freely in the ALL IN ALL in total abandonment to love and infinite communion among ourselves and all creation within God.

IMO, This is the destination, the reason for all of this and we cannot conceive it fully in our minds.
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 10:47:40 PM »
That kind of implies we humans, when God finally does become "all in all" will become omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. - I don't think so. I know it says we will be higher than the angels, for we will judge them, but I believe we will always be subject to Christ, for what is a king or kingdom without subjects?
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 10:50:35 PM »
That kind of implies we humans, when God finally does become "all in all" will become omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. - I don't think so. I know it says we will be higher than the angels, for we will judge them, but I believe we will always be subject to Christ, for what is a king or kingdom without subjects?

I don't think that implies that at all :o)

We will know as we are known, but all it out of, through and back to -God. We cannot be omnipresent OR omniscient, and as I see it nothing I said indicates that, as I stated all of this would be IN GOD. He is the river, we are the droplets :o)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:16:08 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 10:55:38 PM »
Oh yeah, and I would like to add that I am not trying to teach some doctrine about the final age.... I am just sharing my ideas and interpretations of what these "seen through a glass darkly" verses say to me :o)
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 11:16:14 PM »
Mea culpa. I misunderstood what you were saying. :dsunny:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

goodreport

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 11:40:10 PM »
now that the faith has come, we are NO LONGER under a trainer.

I think 'taskmaster' was a poor choice of words in my post.  I wasn't comfortable when I used it.  Not sure it will matter in the whole scope of the discussion, but I've edited it.

Anyway, yeah, we have those scrips, for sure. Isn't the first one specifically drawing a contrast between grace (the law of love/written on our hearts) and the keeping of THE Law prior to the cross?

What I'm really getting at (perhaps poorly) is within the context of the OP, [free] will; how Paul (and other scrips) talk about being free, yet also about being a slave, being compelled...how to reconcile those verses.  I've been suggesting "free to enjoy relationship, protection, lack of consequences for disobedience, penalty for sin paid, etc.", yet still being within God's boundaries, directives, guidance - and when spiritually reborn, even compelled by the law of love to be obedient (the Holy Spirit guiding us).  I'm suggesting we're not completely free to do as we please, because "He who has begun in a good work in you will complete it", "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith", etc...

Free yet not free?  Seems to me like we can be a free slave.   :bigGrin:


Then yes, Gal. 4:6,7 is in the following link (earlier in the thread), along with Paul, Timothy, Peter, and James calling themselves slaves!  How do we reconcile?  I've taken my best shot at it. :sweat: :)  Goodreport, where are you on this?  I'm going to venture you've got some good thoughts on it! :wink3:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/will/msg145364/#msg145364

Jabcat... I did make a couple of attempts to share my "good thoughts" but upon reading them and the other posts to this thread, I removed both of my posts...  you guys seem to be enjoying this discussion...  blessings on all your efforts. 

Offline eaglesway

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Re: What Is Believers' Freedom? (split from 'will')
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 12:20:37 AM »
Awwww GR, I would really have liked to have seen your posts!
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