Author Topic: Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)  (Read 2010 times)

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Offline Gary Amirault

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Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)

The above question came to me via email today. I told the inquirer I'd post it here so he can see the responses from folks here.

martincisneros

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I would think that it depended on your level of commitment to Christ and to the Scriptures.  It's not a matter of believing this, as a Bible believer, or you're not going to believe anything.  The things that you're liable to believe about God, the attitudes in yourself about others that you're capable of entertaining when you don't believe in an ultimate Universal Restoration, and the nature of how and why you evangelize would make this an important topic for Christians to at least be aware of, Scripturally, even if you didn't feel like it was your calling to be separated to the type of ministry that really emphasized this.

From the personal side, it depends on how much you care about people if you want to know where God's ultimate intent is for them.  You sleep better at night when you know Who has absolutely everyone's future, even if you're left scratching your head at the Biblical promises sometimes wondering how Jesus is ever going to pull off something so big in the lives and in the souls of such infamous monsters of iniquity.  After a while, the longer you take a belief in either eternal punishment or some type of eternal destruction, you just get to wondering why you should be excluded from such a fate when you see your own frailties, moments of insincerity, moments of self centeredness, or a hundred trillion other things that you might indict yourself for in your mind, will, emotions, what you've done in the past, or what you're not doing enough of.  This gives you deeper roots and deeper hope that if He doesn't yet have you as completely as He should, then you know that He's coming after you -- in a good way, like the lover in the Song of Solomon looking for their beloved.

You just tend to be bolder in your faith, your prayers, and what you're ready to tell others when you realize that the 99 aren't enough for Him!  Who among us has entirely perfect loved ones?  Who among us doesn't have that relative that died years ago that we absolutely adored that we'd genuinely like to be able to rest about, that though we didn't know anything about the depth of their relationship with the Lord and their sanctification, if somehow we could know that we're going to see them again someday on favorable terms and in a pleasant way -- whatever has to happen between now and then to them, in them, and perhaps through them?

Who doesn't want to believe the best of their God?  Who can imagine Him being offended that some of His children would believe Him to be better than He really is, if in the end He really were only there for people every time but the last time; if in the end He really were only as faithful as we were?  How did Jesus define perfection in the KJV?  Are we going to acheive a depth of perfection that Father will not come up to?  We love our enemies with all of our hearts and fast and pray for them often.  Are we to assume that He's going to broil His fully conscious enemies throughout eternity?  Does that come up to the level of perfection that Jesus Christ sincerely desired for all of us to behold in our heavenly Father and to strive after?

You don't have to believe that mankind's worth a darn thing to believe that God's going to keep all of His promises of BOTH destruction and restoration where every single individual is concerned.  And when you realize that the eternal love of God doesn't have to have any apologies, excuses, or explanations made for it, because it's consistent on either side of the veil of the flesh -- wouldn't that free you up to love people more without having to brace yourself for the possibility of a ghastly eternity for some?  And wouldn't that kind of revelation about your God be worth going through infinitely more than the Apostle Paul ever went through, just to get to tell others about it?  What part of this revelation about your God would allow you to even remotely tolerate sin in your life any more?

If you could just believe..."it is finished!"


« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 10:03:58 PM by martincisneros »

Michele

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Awesome post martincisneros! :thumbsup:

There's a lot of quote worthy sayings in there.....good stuff to ponder.....

....and for me I would also say that believing in Universal Salvation just makes life a whole lot better in general....makes it easier to get through the bad times knowing that in the end Love overcomes it All and that All things are complete in Him.....it's just quite simply a good strong basis for living life to the finish.

jabcat

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It opens up a different relationship with God for me.  I see Him as bigger, better, more loving, SomeOne I can more easily trust...like a loving Father, which is obviously how He's described in accurately translated, Spirit-revealed scripture.  For me, it's about God's character, and it's exciting and a blessing to be allowed a glimpse into His bigger, awesome plan for us...that we came from Him, will be redeemed and refined, and will return to Him.  It's the difference between looking across a mountain vista through a pinhole, vs. being able to freely gaze across the beauty of God's creation.  God's blessing, James.

Offline Sarah

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Quote
would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not?

Is their a difference between black and white movies and high def?

Is their a difference between rabbit ears on an old am/fm radio and surround sound?

perception changes everything.

Offline studier

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Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)

The above question came to me via email today. I told the inquirer I'd post it here so he can see the responses from folks here.

The question presupposes something. Without that presupposition, the answer will seem problematic.

Would it matter? Yes and no. Yes it would matter because the truth sets a person free. Yet at the same time, it doesn't because Universal Salvation is not the prize or point of a relationship with God. So whether we know the truth or not, the truth remains the truth. 

Offline Taffy

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Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)

The above question came to me via email today. I told the inquirer I'd post it here so he can see the responses from folks here.

Gary..THE ANSWER IS.......................NO. ...assuming that Christ is their cornerstone of their FAITH

nough said for me..and also the scriptures....Christ is the WAY, The Truth and the LIFE.......


 Blessed are those  who understand UR...but for sure it aint no prerequisite
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 01:02:25 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

martincisneros

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It's the difference between looking across a mountain vista through a pinhole, vs. being able to freely gaze across the beauty of God's creation.

Good illustration, Jabcat.  For the last couple of years, for reasons that I won't get totally into, this has anchored me in a way that none of the other promises of the Scriptures could have without this as foundational to their interpretation; this has -- to a large degree -- been my "sanity" over the last couple of years.  To realize that God is being a God and that our salvation is not up for a vote or a veto, and that it's just a matter of "when," but not "if" those that I dare to care about find Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit as their absolute totality -- THERE'S NOTHING LIKE IT!! 

Any preaching that doesn't come from at least an understanding of this, even if it's not specifically about this, easily degenerates into just being a cheap drug that'll get you from Sunday to Sunday on your better weeks and from Sunday through Wednesday on your not so good of a week.  People want their core value; the core of their value; their God to honestly answer all things when it comes to every emotion they've ever had, every question, etc., and this releases them to be just like their God, "knowing the end from the beginning" in a way that all of the competing systems of Bible prophecy totally fall short, whether you're talking about futurism, preterism, premillenialism, amillenialism, or postmillenialism. 

This justifies life and totally gets rid of all hard thoughts about God and about Him being a hard God.  This shuts the athiest up while holding the whole world accountable to God.  Justice that doesn't eternally deport makes so much more sense, and being more reasonable is less likely to contribute to the infidelity that 1500 years of Eternal-Hell-based Christianity has led to where way too many people are concerned.  Of course, under any paradigm you'll have abusers of the grace of God -- those that'll turn the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who bought them, into licentiousness.  We've got whole epistles in the New Testament written to address that.  But the antidote isn't a lie about God or how things will turn out, as many of the Greek Church Fathers thought in their mischief with preaching a final restoration only to their most advanced students while chasing the general public with an undying worm and unquenchable flames.  As you said, Jabcat:

It's the difference between looking across a mountain vista through a pinhole, vs. being able to freely gaze across the beauty of God's creation.

This really does open the eyes to not only God and His Creation, but to the rest of the Word of God.  There are levels of clarity, understanding, and sanctification that the eternal punishment exaggeration (blackmail!!) prevents people from ever being able to ascend to.  When you truncate the hope of the people of God, you're robbing them of their inheritance.  You're stealing from them joy unspeakable and full of glory.  Eternal punishment and eternal destruction teachings turn the Cross of Christ into a roll of the dice, or the cosmic slot machine of the ages.  Will this life fulfill the requirements laid out for them in the 4 spiritual laws in such a way to hit the jackpot?  Or will they be another statistic of those that are sucking themselves and who knows who else into a devil's eternal hell?

Elements of our salvation are on our shoulders, but the certainty of where we'll spend eternity isn't ours to argue with or to reject.  It may be possible to postpone one's heavenly bliss, but when the dust settles and your heart has vomited all of that mess, He's going to hold you FOREVER!!!!!!!!

It's sooo easy to bring people to Jesus Christ when He's no longer preached as the one that's determining who is fit for eternal glory.  When you just tell people the truth, that He's neither putting up with their nonsense nor letting them get away from Him forever after all that He went through to seat them at His right hand....  When you tell them that the universe is theirs, because Someone loves them....  They just want to know Who and what they can possibly do for Him in return!  Tell them He'll slaughter them like an animal for their sins and that they shall never arise again if He just catches them sinning at the most critical moment, and they'll begin to act like animals.  Preachers were telling people that they were brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed long before Darwinian evolution in the public schools ever started becoming the norm in the schools!  The world learned that from the Church and not from the devil.  Neither the world nor the devil are that clever.  We've perverted the Scriptures in making the most unconditional love of all the number one love with the most conditions of any love at all.  And our society is reaping the harvest!  When American people say that America was founded as a Christian country, they testify against themselves as the Pharisees did that Jesus addressed who were white washing the tombs of the prophets.  They're admitting that they're the sons and daughters of those who spread this great deception of a conditionally victorious Christ into every nation of the earth!  God forgive us all, have mercy on us, and revive our nation again!!

Offline willieH

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willieH: Hi Gary... :hithere:

Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)

My  :2c:

BELIEF in TRUTH is REVEALED by GOD... not ALL "believe" TRUTH... Even GOD's "chosen people" the JEWS have been BLINDED from its revelation, as have ALL humans in one moment of the process or another... (Rom 11:32)

REVELATION comes from GOD... at HIS decision... (John 6:44 & 65) :dontknow:

I believe "what matters", is that the TRUTH is preached...  realizing the importance of JESUS CHRIST's directive to preach the GOSPEL to EVERY CREATURE... (Mk 16:15)

The GOSPEL is the WORD of GOD ...going OUT from His mouth to be HEARD... and of the WORD's Return, Isaiah said this:

Is 55:12   So shall my WORD BE, that GOETH FORTH out of My mouth; it SHALL NOT RETURN unto Me VOID, but is SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and it shall PROSPER whereunto I SENT IT...

CHRIST was SENT to SAVE the WORLD... (John 3:17)

So anytime the WORD of YHVH goes forth, it CANNOT RETURN VOID in ANY INSTANCE.

If the GOSPEL (good news of Salvation), is to be PREACHED to EVERY CREATURE... then it must be done... for it is thereby INTENDED for EVERY CREATURE... (which, in the end, is what UR is.)

When the GOSPEL is spoken, it is therefore the WORD of YHVH "going forth"...

As an individual HEARS that WORD (that one is DRAWN by YHVH), that WORD attaching itself to that individual, and bringing that individual BACK to YHVH in the order which that individual has been ordained to RETURN, in DUE TIME... (1 Tim 2:3-6)

If there was "selectivity" in Salvation... then CHRIST would have not been so SPECIFIC, as to note it to be preached to EVERY CREATURE... for if some did not respond, then the RETURN in those cases would render the WORD as VOID...  :dontknow:

And if it was NOT INTENDED for EVERY CREATURE... why bother with those it is not intended for?

He would've just directed them to go out and preach, ...and the ones "SELECTED" by  GOD would have placed in proximity to hear...

If I decided to make an announcement to my Church of 1000 people, which was VITALLY IMPORTANT and SIGNIFICANT to EACH INDIVIDUAL member, and instead, I made the announcement at the PRAYER meeting, to the 10 people in attendance (of the 1000 person congregation)... did I fufill my decided INTENTION?  Or did I signicantly DEPRIVE the 990 which did NOT hear it?

JESUS was VERY SPECIFIC, as to the NUMBER which the GOSPEL should be preached:  EVERY CREATURE, was to hear the GOSPEL...

Anything LESS than "EVERY", is found SHORT of His DIRECTIVE!  :dontknow:

NOTHING JESUS CHRIST directed (as the Son of YHVH) to be done had ANY VANITY attached to it...

If the GOSPEL was intended to be HEARD by EVERY CREATURE... then EVERY CREATURE shall HEAR IT... and if it is preached to EVERY CREATURE, then it shall have the same POWER of GOD attached to it, which SAVES those who HEAR it...

As PAUL preached of the GOSPEL (Rom 10:15) ...He noted that in that PREACHING... (Rom 10:17) Faith (to believe) comes by HEARING, and HEARING by the Word of GOD, ...which IS, the GOSPEL.

Does it matter that Universal Reconciliation is believed?  It does not matter that some might not believe it along the way... it matters that it IS PREACHED... for HEARING comes by the WORD of GOD...and IN PREACHING is HEARING found according to the order ordained of GOD, ...to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME (not all at once)... and in that testimony is found the BELIEF of the INDIVIDUAL... (1 Tim 2:6)

pEAce...
...willieH  :cloud9:

jabcat

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Any preaching that doesn't come from at least an understanding of this, even if it's not specifically about this, easily degenerates into just being a cheap drug that'll get you from Sunday to Sunday on your better weeks and from Sunday through Wednesday on your not so good of a week.  People want their core value; the core of their value; their God to honestly answer all things when it comes to every emotion they've ever had, every question, etc., and this releases them to be just like their God, "knowing the end from the beginning" in a way that all of the competing systems of Bible prophecy totally fall short, whether you're talking about futurism, preterism, premillenialism, amillenialism, or postmillenialism. 


Amen!


BELIEF in TRUTH is REVEALED by GOD... not ALL "believe" TRUTH... Even GOD's "chosen people" the JEWS have been BLINDED from its revelation, as have ALL humans in one moment of the process or another... (Rom 11:32)

REVELATION comes from GOD... at HIS decision... (John 6:44 & 65) :dontknow:

I believe "what matters", is that the TRUTH is preached...  realizing the importance of JESUS CHRIST's directive to preach the GOSPEL to EVERY CREATURE... (Mk 16:15)

Does it matter that Universal Reconciliation is believed?  It does not matter that some might not believe it along the way... it matters that it IS PREACHED... for HEARING comes by the WORD of GOD...and IN PREACHING is HEARING found according to the order ordained of GOD, ...to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME (not all at once)... and in that testimony is found the BELIEF of the INDIVIDUAL... (1 Tim 2:6)

And Amen!

martincisneros

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One thing that I don't want to accidentally convey is that:   I AM NOT SAYING that other ministers who've not yet understood the Universal Restoration from the Scriptures have been barren of good fruit.  In proportion as they've not emphasized the eternal punishment misunderstanding, they've usually born tremendously good fruit. 

There are other subjects in the Word of God -- each having it's own level of importance, and each being important [and having it's place] for the development of the whole man; of the Kingdom; for the recovery of sinners; and for the sanctification of believers.  Christians are to be sound in all Scriptural doctrine and I understand, appreciate, and promote that, while trying to facilitate that and be an example of a well-rounded Christian. 

But the Scriptural doctrine of the Universal Restoration is the 15,000 mile by 15,000 mile by 15,000 mile piece of gold that Christians have longed for all of their lives and I don't want any Christian to be without that -- in addition to each of the other gems of doctrine in the Scriptures.  There is a level of wholeness in this that you won't find for yourself or be able to impart to others without a sound understanding and a clear presentation of a Biblically balanced doctrine of the Universal Restoration.  It's that simple.  I rest my case :cloud9:

Offline sparrow

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Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)


Yes, it would matter to your heart. If you do not fully understand that God loves all of his children, and he SEES us AS children.... your heart remains small. When you realize that no-one is better than another, that we are all EQUAL and LOVED the same... your heart grows. Your heart softens towards others. Your heart expands to include all others...

peace.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :)


Yes, it would matter to your heart. If you do not fully understand that God loves all of his children, and he SEES us AS children.... your heart remains small. When you realize that no-one is better than another, that we are all EQUAL and LOVED the same... your heart grows. Your heart softens towards others. Your heart expands to include all others...

peace.

 :goodpost: :iagree:

Nicely stated sister S...  :cloud9:

peaCe...
...willieH   :pointlaugh:

Average_Bear

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I've been in both an AG church and grace oriented church over the past several years. For those in the grace type churches, UR doesn't matter so much because they already secretly believe in UR (well, that's my theory anyway). Think about it - they never preach hell and rarely mention it. There are no threats of eternal judgment for unbelievers from the pulpit - just talk about God's love for humanity. One pastor there occassionaly said "hell is real....", He never elaborated and you could tell by the uncomfortable look on his face that he didn't want to believe it and maybe he really didn't. For many Christians, hell is just some doctrine, an academic belief that never reaches the heart.

It's a much different story for AG, Holiness, Pentacostal, and Fundamentalist.

Anyway, back to the question:
For me YES!
Since I discovered UR, my life has changed -
I read the Bible more and with greater interest
I don't worry as much
I see all people much differently, not as winners and losers, but rather objects of God's mercy
Sin has become less appealing
I trust God more, and myself less
I am less judgmental
I truly desire that all people see salvation, no matter how rotten they are now
I am generally happier with life
My view of many things has change - especially of salvation - I see it as something for the here and now
I desire to share the really good news more than ever

jabcat

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Related to this discussion is this article on the Tent which is about "the dangers of Carlton Pearson's inclusionism"....http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/pearsons_doctrine_of_inclusion.htm.  IMO it touches on several current topics in the discussion board, including this one, "Question..would it matter much...?", as well as post-mortem punishment, all already saved vs. all will be saved...God's blessing, James.

martincisneros

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As far as looking at the opening question more critically when it says "would it matter much if I believed....?"  It really depends on what you know.  I've tried to go back to the fundamentalist teaching along these lines when circumstances would have seemingly made conformity more expedient and I realized really quickly that I was personally teetering on a Hebrews 10 sin that I didn't have any business getting into with seeking promotion early.  Nothing that God's told me about the impact that I'm having was ever on the chopping block just because He gave me further light regarding the "eternal" destiny of every person.  That's when the test began of whether or not I'd be willing to lay my Isaac ministry on the altar or not.  Or whether I'd go the route of a certain someone in Scripture who sold out for a bowl of frijoles, when he evidently wasn't as hungry as he claimed or the Scriptures wouldn't have condemned him as fiercely as they did, even if he still had the same equal amount of punishment that was going to come out of his hide and the hide of his descendants over it.  Proverbs says that those who steal because of hunger aren't despised although the payment for it will still be totally rung out of them.  The same principle had to apply regarding his attitude about the birthright.

What do you know?  What you choose to believe, say, and act on only matters depending on what you know.  If you're only emotionally/mentally here with us, you'll be judged with less condemnation for denying a part of the record that God has given of His Son if you were honestly ignorant of that aspect of the record that God has given of His Son.  But if you KNOW and deny it for any reason....God be merciful to your soul with all that you're about to go through at His insistence and sternest rebuke!!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 02:01:21 AM by martincisneros »

Offline CHB

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Question.. would it matter much if I believed in Universal Salvation or not? :) 

Not as far as your salvation is concerned. I am so thankful that God has giving me this understanding. We only believe what God allows us to believe and I believe we are all on different levels of understanding which helps edify us all. The body has different parts that all function differently, or have a certain ability to perform certain things. Just think how it would be if all believed the same things, how could one teach another or learn anything new? :umnick:

CHB