Author Topic: Question about Matthew 25:31-46  (Read 3256 times)

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DC

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Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« on: December 23, 2010, 06:31:56 PM »
Is Matthew 25:31-46 referring to the time after the second resurrection at the end of the Millennial Age of the Kingdom of God when the people who aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 07:01:58 PM »
Bible scholars disagree on an exact interpretation of the how and the when. Anyone that tells you they know exactly what is meant by these verses is stretching the truth at best. All you'll get is people's opinions about the exact meaning. With all scripture, read and read and pray for guidance from the holy spirit but remember to get the important thing out of these verses. It's not the how or the when of when these things will occur because we have no control over any of that. Instead pray on what we are able to change... the way we treat what others consider to be the least of humanity, we are to treat as the Lord himself.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 07:59:57 PM »
Good question DC.

YLTRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
==> Only those that didn't follow the beast will live during the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.
==> The first resurrection is for saints only

6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
==> They will reign with Jesus. The question is over who they reign if the sinners are not resurrected yet?
==> How can the sinners have a second death if they are not part of the resurrection?

7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea;
9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
==> After the 1000 years satan is allowed to lead the world astray again. Satan gets defeated and cast in LoF. Beast and the fals eprophet are already there. Humans are not mentioned.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
==> Some say the scroll of life is not about the life of mankind. "The life" = Jesus so: and another scroll was opened, which is that of Jesus

13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
==> very puzzling. I looks like the chronology is a bit mixed up. The saints already lived a year. The people stand before the throne (are the sainst only)
==> The dead are judged before they are given up by hades???

14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
==> Hades is empty and cast in LoF

15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
==> Sinners are cast in LoF

So it looks the answer to your question is that Matthew is after the 1000 years because in Revelation that also happens after the 1000 years.
In verse 13 we see judgement of works like in the verses you mentioned. So that's an other indication it happens after the 1000 years.

What I find odd is that there are at leat 2 judgements.
The saints are resurrected. Obviously to that means God finds them worthy for that resurrection. So that's a judgement.
Later we see another resurrection before the white throne.

 :dontknow:
That's after the period satan was back on earth for a while. So he likely decieved some of teh saints from the 1000 year reign too.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 08:32:34 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 08:32:52 PM »
Is Matthew 25:31-46 referring to the time after the second resurrection at the end of the Millennial Age of the Kingdom of God when the people who aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire?

In my opinion, that judgement is only for unbelievers, and/or people who never heard of Jesus. Note that those who are judged righteous had to ask when they did all those things for Him. I think they are the people Paul writes about in Romans 2:15, who "... show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

DC

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 07:28:47 PM »
So, the big question is "is Matthew 25:31-46 talking about the Final White Throne Judgment?"  I really really like to think that it is.  I feel like the Holy Spirit has been guiding me to the answers to all my big questions lately.  After all, this is where Jesus mentions the "Aionios Kolasis" (age-abiding correction), and with all the information I've gathered, if I can just find proof that these verses are referring to the White Throne Judgement I think I'll finally be able to prove without a doubt that UR is true.

Some things to consider:

-I don't think Revelation mentions any other Judgments besides the White Throne Judgment.

-Verse 31 mentions Jesus sitting on a throne- could this be the Great White Throne?

-In verse 41, Jesus mentions the "aionion fire prepared for the devil and his angels."  Is there anything that this could be besides the Lake of Fire?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 08:07:57 PM »
Hi DC,

As I wrote in my previous post I think Matthew is after the GWTJ.
But while reading your 2nd post in this thread I had another thought.

If LoF and Matthew are not the same event that means there are 2 punishments.
It would also mean there is a punishment before and after the judgement.
That's very odd.
It's like the police locks you up in jail for 10 year. After those 10 year a judge gives you another 5 years.

I could be very wrong but I think Father is very passive in the judgements.


Quote
Verse 31 mentions Jesus sitting on a throne- could this be the Great White Throne?
John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

I wonder if all things also includes the right to judge and correct.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2010, 08:57:10 PM »

If LoF and Matthew are not the same event that means there are 2 punishments.
It would also mean there is a punishment before and after the judgement.
That's very odd.

Well if you're me ... (I'm Chevy Chase and you're not) ... LoF is not a "punishment," it is the place of final destruction.  Not all are destined for LoF - only those whose names are not written in the book of life.

 :2c:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 09:28:04 PM »
That doesn't really solve the problem.

But if Mattew is NOT about LoF then the sequence is:
a] Punishment (Matthew)
b] White Throne Judgement (Rev)
c] Destruction in LoF (Rev)

That would mean people are punished before destruction.
Firstly that means it is vindictive punishment that serves no corrective purpose because even if the sinner becomes a saint s/he gets destroyed anyway. (or is it a second chance thing?)
Secondly it means people get punished before the Judge on the White Throne passed judgement.
I find that odd. Not just in the case of ED but in every case.

Finally a question.
If you/anyone look at a the 'timeline' op Revelation (1000 year. Resurrections. Etc); where does Matthew fit in that timeline?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2010, 10:05:32 PM »
That doesn't really solve the problem.

But if Mattew is NOT about LoF then the sequence is:
a] Punishment (Matthew)
b] White Throne Judgement (Rev)
c] Destruction in LoF (Rev)

That would mean people are punished before destruction.
Firstly that means it is vindictive punishment that serves no corrective purpose because even if the sinner becomes a saint s/he gets destroyed anyway. (or is it a second chance thing?)
Secondly it means people get punished before the Judge on the White Throne passed judgement.
I find that odd. Not just in the case of ED but in every case.

Finally a question.
If you/anyone look at a the 'timeline' op Revelation (1000 year. Resurrections. Etc); where does Matthew fit in that timeline?
I guess I'm not sure why you think people are "punished?" I think there may be a purification, but punishment?  Is there a passage that says that?  (There may be - it's just not coming to mind at the moment)

As for a general timeline, 1 Cor 15 says, "then comes the end (vs. 24) when Jesus hands the kingdom to the Father. At this point, all enemies have been put under his feet (vs 25) and the last enemy destroyed is death (vs 26)

When is death destroyed? In Rev 20, at the white throne judgment you all are talking about.  I don't see why this isn't the judgment Jesus describes in Matthew:

11 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12  I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged[/u] according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13  The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.


Here death is destroyed:
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.

What's the very next line?
15  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

If the pool of fire destroyed death, why wouldn't it destroy those who were also thrown in?  I think that it does - nothing indicates it is temporary or that "all" are thrown in. 

THAT is their punishment; I don't see any indication of other punishment or torture; simply that they are destroyed.  Anything "corrective" occurred in this life, as God is exceedingly patient and gives us every opportunity. (that comes from the book of Wisdom in the Catholic Bible).

Truthfully, the 1,000 years has always puzzled me. I tend to think it is simply the time between Jesus' resurrection 2,000 years ago, and "the end" when He comes again to judge the living and the dead. Believers enter into His presence immediately at their death; all others "sleep" until they are raised for the judgement of Matthew/at the white throne, when those who never heard of Jesus and those who will be saved (but weren't believers) will also enter into His presence; those who are not saved are destroyed.

That's how I see it at this point, although I am still studying and learning.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 10:09:08 PM by LS »

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2010, 10:07:22 PM »
Oops ... messed up trying to edit the last post - sorry!   :icon_flower:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2010, 11:00:14 PM »
That doesn't really solve the problem.

But if Mattew is NOT about LoF then the sequence is:
a] Punishment (Matthew)
b] White Throne Judgement (Rev)
c] Destruction in LoF (Rev)

That would mean people are punished before destruction.
Firstly that means it is vindictive punishment that serves no corrective purpose because even if the sinner becomes a saint s/he gets destroyed anyway. (or is it a second chance thing?)
Secondly it means people get punished before the Judge on the White Throne passed judgement.
I find that odd. Not just in the case of ED but in every case.

Finally a question.
If you/anyone look at a the 'timeline' op Revelation (1000 year. Resurrections. Etc); where does Matthew fit in that timeline?
I guess I'm not sure why you think people are "punished?" I think there may be a purification, but punishment?  Is there a passage that says that?  (There may be - it's just not coming to mind at the moment)
Matthew 25:46
That "action" takes place before judgement.

Quote
When is death destroyed? In Rev 20, at the white throne judgment you all are talking about.  I don't see why this isn't the judgment Jesus describes in Matthew:
Maybe I was not clear. If you read my first reply in this thread you see I conclude that Matthew 25:46 is the Judgement/LoF. And that is still my comclusion.

Then DC asks
Quote
So, the big question is "is Matthew 25:31-46 talking about the Final White Throne Judgment?"  I really really like to think that it is.  I feel like the Holy Spirit has been guiding me to the answers to all my big questions lately.  After all, this is where Jesus mentions the "Aionios Kolasis" (age-abiding correction), and with all the information I've gathered, if I can just find proof that these verses are referring to the White Throne Judgement I think I'll finally be able to prove without a doubt that UR is true.
Then I could just have repeated my first reply. But I didn't.....
Then wrote it would be odd that there are 2 punishments/corrections/....  and only one judgement. That's very odd. I hope that clears up the confusion a bit.



Quote
11 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12  I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged[/u] according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13  The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.


Here death is destroyed:
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.

What's the very next line?
15  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

If the pool of fire destroyed death, why wouldn't it destroy those who were also thrown in?  I think that it does - nothing indicates it is temporary or that "all" are thrown in.
 
Death can't be destroyed because it's not a thing. It's a concept. The concept no longer exists. Same for Hades.

After that event nothing can die because God destroyed the whole concept of death. If the people were cast in LoF before Death and Hades it would be (possibly) different.

Quote
THAT is their punishment; I don't see any indication of other punishment or torture; simply that they are destroyed. 
So the eternal punishment of Matthew is just being eternally dead?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 12:12:33 AM »
Death can't be destroyed because it's not a thing. It's a concept. The concept no longer exists. Same for Hades.
I couldn't disagree more. Scripture explicitly says that death is destroyed; therefore, I believe that to be true.

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So the eternal punishment of Matthew is just being eternally dead?
In my opinion, yes.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2010, 12:41:48 AM »
Death can't be destroyed because it's not a thing. It's a concept. The concept no longer exists. Same for Hades.
I couldn't disagree more. Scripture explicitly says that death is destroyed; therefore, I believe that to be true.

1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Then you completly misunderstood me.
I mean death is not a person or a thing. So that person or thing can't die.
The concept of death dies. The concept op death no longer exists.
The word concept is important for what I'm trying to say.

Quote
So the eternal punishment of Matthew is just being eternally dead?
In my opinion, yes.
To quote your own words: "I couldn't disagree more. Scripture explicitly says that death is destroyed;"

Death is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.
That's a contradiction imo.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 12:57:31 AM »
Quote
Death is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.

Let me ET-rify this verse:

Of course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever... and into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??

And there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...

What will happen to death in the LoF, it will be turned into life? I don't think so, Death and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.

- end ET-rification -

Ok refute.   :thumbsup:

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 01:24:32 AM »
Then you completly misunderstood me.
I mean death is not a person or a thing. So that person or thing can't die.
The concept of death dies. The concept op death no longer exists.
The word concept is important for what I'm trying to say.

I'm sorry WW, I just can't agree - scripture doesn't say the "concept" dies. It says that death is destroyed.  I don't think death dies, I don't think the concept of death ends ... death itself is utterly destroyed, just as the passage says.

Death is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.
That's a contradiction imo.....
Not in my opinion.  Those people aren't just dead (with a hope/possibility of future resurrection). They (like death) are utterly destroyed.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse ... I just was trying to reply to your question about a timeline, and this is how I see it. I don't see any contradiction, and I think it is Biblically correct.

Peace bro - I always enjoy talking to you   :cloud9:

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2010, 01:26:44 AM »
Quote
Death is destroyed in verse 14.
Verse 15 comes after verse 14 in which death is destroyed.
So whatever happens in verse 15, it can't be death because the concept of death no longer exists.
If people still die in verse 15 then death still has it's sting.
Hades is emptied. Death is destroyed.
But in verse 15 (many) people die and Hades get filled again.

Let me ET-rify this verse:

Of course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever... and into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??

And there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...

What will happen to death in the LoF, it will be turned into life? I don't think so, Death and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.

- end ET-rification -

Ok refute.   :thumbsup:

I'm not an ET believer, so I really have no reply to your ET-rification   :happy3:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2010, 01:29:16 AM »
 :eek: another PN question. That's gonna cost me a few  to answer :laughing7:


Ok refute.   :thumbsup:
Erm.... how shall I answer you in a polite way....  :laughing7:
I wasn't ETifrying because LS believes in EDification
 :gpg: <---- buy some glasses. :winkgrin:


Quote
Of course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever...
That's one of teh reasons I kept mentioning "concept". Concepts can't be tortured.
Quote
and into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??
I don't believe that. God created the ages along with the material world. Time can't exist without matter. And when teh heaven and earth flee away it basicly means time is decreated. So the ages end.
Quote
And there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...
There is no more death so no spiritual death either. And the spiritually alive know Jesus and therefore turn to Jesus. And He shall nowise turn anyone away.

Quote
Death and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.
I keep wondering if this verse is a pun. Hades is not really the grave. The grave is the kingdom of the Greek god Hades. So I'm wondering if pagan cocepts are ridiculed in this verse.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2010, 01:45:02 AM »
Not in my opinion. Those people aren't just dead (with a hope/possibility of future resurrection). They (like death) are utterly destroyed.
Dead is the absense of life.
The destroyed people don't have life so they are dead.
Dead never have hope because they know nothing.

Quote
I just was trying to reply to your question about a timeline
That question was not about ET, ED or UR.
It was about punishment/correction/... happening before the White Throne judgement. ( I think not)

Quote
I'm sorry WW, I just can't agree - scripture doesn't say the "concept" dies. It says that death is destroyed.  I don't think death dies, I don't think the concept of death ends ... death itself is utterly destroyed, just as the passage says.
Someting that doesn't exist can't be destroyed. Death is not a thing solid form. It's not a spirit for either. It's the absense of (the spirit of) life.
I call that a concept. Maybe not the best possible word. That's very well possible.
What I mean is that the destruction of dead is God saying that He no longer withdraws life from people.


I seems we have a whole different idea about what death is. Maybe someone has a few verses that define death...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2010, 02:05:56 AM »
I know none of you were discussing nor mock-advocating ET in this thread... That thought just came to mind since you were discussing 1 Cor. 15: 22 - 28, one of my favorite UR verses...

And why are you equating my questions with marijuana induced hallucinations?  :grin: :grin:

But yes, I've had that thought for awhile about "death and "Hades" in LOF in relation to it being destroyed as written by Paul.. thanks for the answers! And I never thought that both could simply be concepts... I had the feeling they were spirits or some sort of demons who had control over those two things, both death and the "unseen" (The veil that covers all the earth as in what Isaiah wrote?)

:eek: another PN question. That's gonna cost me a few  to answer :laughing7:


Ok refute.   :thumbsup:
Erm.... how shall I answer you in a polite way....  :laughing7:
I wasn't ETifrying because LS believes in EDification
 :gpg: <---- buy some glasses. :winkgrin:


Quote
Of course death is destroyed! It is being tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever...
That's one of teh reasons I kept mentioning "concept". Concepts can't be tortured.
Quote
and into the ages of ages clearly means eternity! Are you telling me Jesus doesn't live into the ages of the ages??
I don't believe that. God created the ages along with the material world. Time can't exist without matter. And when teh heaven and earth flee away it basicly means time is decreated. So the ages end.
Quote
And there is no more death because those who are "spiritually" dead will be raised and locked up in the LoF forever and ever...
There is no more death so no spiritual death either. And the spiritually alive know Jesus and therefore turn to Jesus. And He shall nowise turn anyone away.

Quote
Death and Hades are destroyed through eternal imprisonment.
I keep wondering if this verse is a pun. Hades is not really the grave. The grave is the kingdom of the Greek god Hades. So I'm wondering if pagan cocepts are ridiculed in this verse.

@LS:

Quote
I'm not an ET believer, so I really have no reply to your ET-rification   :happy3:

But you are a Roman Catholic by the way you profess your faith, right? So you truly believe that all mankind, as in every single soul will eventually enter the glorious freedom of God's children?  :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 02:17:15 AM by PaoloNuevo »

LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2010, 02:09:25 AM »
But you are a Roman Catholic by the way you profess your faith, right? So you truly believe that all mankind, as in every single soul will eventually enter the glorious freedom of God's children?  :bigGrin:
Hi PaoloNuevo ... I am a member of the Roman Catholic church  :)  However, my own personal beliefs are that some by their own willful, intentional and knowing rejection of God will not be saved; they will be utterly destroyed. 

DC

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2010, 06:10:05 PM »
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.

Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The Greek words that have been translated as "made alive" really mean "made immortal."  I know that some translations of this verse say that "many" will be made alive, but the original Greek clearly says "all."  "Christ the firstfruit" obviously means that Jesus is the first person to be made Immortal.  "They that are Christ's at His coming" is referring to all the people who accept Christ as their savior who will be raised at the First Resurrection.

"Then Cometh the end" simply has to be referring to everyone else.  According to Doctor Hurley in this article: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm :

"But Christ, and they that are Christ's, however, do not include all who died in Adam; they are only a handful compared to the remaining ones. When are the rest to be raised to immortality? Well, in the words, "Then cometh the end," the word "cometh" is in italics, showing that Paul did not use that word at all. It was supplied by the translators and, in this case, completely changes the meaning. Paul is talking about the order in which all are to be made alive. The word translated "order" means a "group," or "rank," or "band," like succeeding groups or bands in a parade. Christ is the first order; they that are Christ's are the second order; and the rest constitute the third order to be made alive, "when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

These three orders constitute the "all" who are to be made alive spiritually or immortally. Some will insist that this is a mere assumption in order to support an opinion. But there are two facts in the Greek of the passage that prove the statement to be correct. In the first place, the Greek word hekastos, translated "every man," or, more accurately, "each," is regularly used to signify each one of several items. If there were only two items or individuals, the word meaning "both" would be used. This same distinction is also regular usage in the English language, so that there should be no difficulty in understanding it.

In the second place, two other words are used which make the conclusion inevitable. The adverbs epeita and eita make unquestionable the significance of three orders. They are words used to mark succession of time or order, meaning that that which precedes the statement which they introduce is related in time or order to what follows, and that what follows is related in the same way to what precedes. So that the Greek words eita to telos meaning, "then the end" (or "consummation") simply have to refer to the "order" or "rank" that is referred to in the preceding verse."


LS

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2010, 04:10:11 AM »
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.

Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The Greek words that have been translated as "made alive" really mean "made immortal."  I know that some translations of this verse say that "many" will be made alive, but the original Greek clearly says "all."  "Christ the firstfruit" obviously means that Jesus is the first person to be made Immortal.  "They that are Christ's at His coming" is referring to all the people who accept Christ as their savior who will be raised at the First Resurrection.

DC, can you tell me your source for "made alive" meaning "made immortal?"  That isn't the definition I see in Strong's, and the other places where the same word is used wouldn't lead me to believe it means that either.

zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2010, 09:44:51 AM »
I can't find it either LS. I'm using Thayer (it's an expanded Strong)
But I do remember a book of discussion that makes the same claims as DC does. I'll try to dig up some info....

PS:
I think made alive IN Christ is a big hint.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 09:49:08 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2010, 05:12:21 PM »
http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/OneCor.html
On the other hand, some years later, Professor G.G. Finlay, pointed out that being made alive is "wider in intention" than being resurrected, "as it imports not the mere raising of the body, but restoration to 'life' in the full sense of the term." Finlay says the stress of the passage is not on all, which he then employs in his gloss of what Paul was trying to say: "The point is that as death in all cases is grounded in Adam, so life in all cases is grounded in Christ." (THE EXPOSITOR'S GREEK TESTAMENT, vol.2, p.926).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wesley's Notes
15:22 As through Adam all, even the righteous, die, so through Christ all these shall be made alive - He does not say, shall revive, (as naturally as they die,) but shall be made alive, by a power not their own.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

DC

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Re: Question about Matthew 25:31-46
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2010, 06:05:38 PM »
LS, I have evidence that the Lake of Fire can't possibly mean annihilation.

Let's take a look at Corinthians 15:22-28:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

The Greek words that have been translated as "made alive" really mean "made immortal."  I know that some translations of this verse say that "many" will be made alive, but the original Greek clearly says "all."  "Christ the firstfruit" obviously means that Jesus is the first person to be made Immortal.  "They that are Christ's at His coming" is referring to all the people who accept Christ as their savior who will be raised at the First Resurrection.

DC, can you tell me your source for "made alive" meaning "made immortal?"  That isn't the definition I see in Strong's, and the other places where the same word is used wouldn't lead me to believe it means that either.

zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.


my source is here: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html