Question

[whyiloveitaly]

In Old Testament times, when the high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood sacrifice for the people of Israel, was everyone forgiven of their sins through that sacrifice, or did the Israelites have to "choose" to be covered by it?

Any help would be appreciated!

Love to all,
Brian

[anti_nietzsche]

According to the book of Hebrews, the sacrifices were only meant to remind people to their sins.

[whyiloveitaly]

I do not agree that it was only a reminder.
Hebrews 7:
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


My understanding of the Scriptures has always been that God required the Jewish nation to provide a sacrifice for their sins, in order to be accepted by God, not simply to remind them that they sinned!

Returning to the original question: did the Israelites have to "choose" to be under the sacrifice made by the high priest, or were all Israelites pardoned by it automatically?

Thank you!

Brian

[studier]

In Old Testament times, when the high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood sacrifice for the people of Israel, was everyone forgiven of their sins through that sacrifice, or did the Israelites have to "choose" to be covered by it?

Any help would be appreciated!

Love to all,
Brian

Read 2 Chronicles 30-31. It covered even those who did not choose to be covered by it, but because King of Israel prayed and asked for it.

[whyiloveitaly]

Thank you SOtW..

In fact, it now seems clear that if the high priests provided a sin sacrifice in order to cleanse the Israelites, then the Most High Priest (Jesus) has been provided as the sacrifice to cleanse the entire world! Praise GOD! That means that the world has been truly cleansed from sin!
This is important, because it means that God has PUT AWAY SIN. Can we believe that today in our hearts? Are we living knowing that God has finished with sin? Or are we still looking at sin as present and a problem?

Yes, people will say, "but there are still sinners out there--sinning and living in sin!!!"

But I feel in my heart that God is wanting to show us that ONE sacrifice was needed at the end of the world in order to create something new. To be finished with it ALL. Could that be why Jesus was called the Last Adam? Maybe because, through His death, the curse and lineage of the first Adam would be broken? That now in the endtimes (these last 2,000 years) we would begin to see something new. Not Adam, but something new. -Are we looking for something new?

Are we seeing ourselves and each other (and the world) as God sees us all, as cleansed by the sacrifice He provided??


Yes, each man will go through the fire. Those who don't follow their Savior will suffer much loss. But those who are no longer living a sin conscience know who they belong to!

Love to all!
Brian

[Dallas]

Yes, each man will go through the fire. Those who don't follow their Savior will suffer much loss. But those who are no longer living a sin conscience know who they belong to!

That would seem to condradict the very good message you were onto. Sin has been put away, yet for some reason they will still go through the fire. For what reason? Why would they go through a fire?

If their sin was put away then we worship a God putting them through a fire for another purpose?

Please elaberate.

[jabcat]

Along with Dallas' question...how can the "whole world already be cleansed from sin" while at the same time "sin lives and reigns in our mortal bodies" and we can look around and see murder, adultery, drunkenness...sin?  Isn't it true that individually, each must be drawn/dragged, as and when God chooses, and personal regeneration from sin occur?  Jesus has paid the price and will draw all, some now, the rest later...the creation is currently groaning....God will be all in all, not currently completely is....IMO, He's just not done yet :)

[studier]

Yes, each man will go through the fire. Those who don't follow their Savior will suffer much loss. But those who are no longer living a sin conscience know who they belong to!

That would seem to condradict the very good message you were onto. Sin has been put away, yet for some reason they will still go through the fire. For what reason? Why would they go through a fire?

If their sin was put away then we worship a God putting them through a fire for another purpose?

Please elaberate.

There is a huge misunderstanding in what the fire is for. I am still puzzled why anyone still thinks those who trust in the Lord, go through the Fire. (Most people make a hasty generalization that when Jesus said we all are salted with fire, that that same fire is the Lake of Fire).

So what do you think the fire is for, or that if anyone goes through the fire?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...

Jesus has paid the price and will draw all, some now, the rest later...the creation is currently groaning....

All the above in blue, are references to TIME manifestations... GOD is not subject to TIME, time IS SUBJECT to HIM...

God will be all in all, not currently completely is....IMO, He's just not done yet :)

The blue is again referencing TIME.    From the STATE in which YHVH exists, ...ALL TIME is before Him at "all times"... Its manifestation does not "UNFOLD" for Him, ...it IS... before Him... like watching a painting... He does not have to set His "eyes" to the left, then move them to the right in order that the painting be manifest in His eyes... He views it ALWAYS as a COMPLETE PICTURE...

YHVH does not CHANGE brother J...  In "becoming" something, entails change... meaning He was different in some way or degree, than He IS now... 

He ALWAYS IS what He IS...

Though we have yet to manifest (because of our journey in time), what we ARE, does not prevent Him in and from His Eternal state to BE ...ALL in ALL...

Those in TIME cannot know the "ALL" IN YHVH, they have ALWAYS BEEN... until time has ended for them... 

peaCe...
...willieH   

[Dallas]

There is a huge misunderstanding in what the fire is for. I am still puzzled why anyone still thinks those who trust in the Lord, go through the Fire. (Most people make a hasty generalization that when Jesus said we all are salted with fire, that that same fire is the Lake of Fire).

So what do you think the fire is for, or that if anyone goes through the fire?

Hay Craig,

The fire has a couple of meanings, both relevant.

1. Fire is a biblical picture used throughout scripture. The "Lake of Fire" taps into the covenant of Moses.The Hebrew people entered into a covenant with God and because they were not able to adhere to the stipulations and thus broke the covenant and were accountable. The covenant language in Dueteronomy clearly outlines the use of fire. This idea of fire judgement was built upon by the prophets as they were understanding of the covenant and the consequnces for disobedience to it. Example in Zephaniah combined with Isaiah. Isaiah said-

Isaiah 9:7 
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,On the throne of David and over his kingdom,To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousnessFrom then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

and

Zephaniah 3:8
"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,"For the day when I rise up as a witness Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,To assemble kingdoms,To pour out on them My indignation,All My burning anger;For all the earth will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

which all came from...

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield,And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

and all that is concluded in judgement for all at the Kingship of Christ.

 
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

The beast is Rome, and The False prophet is Jeruslaem. Those two were judged.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The devil is judged.


Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The results of sin is judged.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyone under the Moses covenant who did not convert from faith in works to faith of Christ were judged.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." 

Those people who desire to attain righteousnes through the law were judged.


2. There is also the understanding that everyone will have their own personal "Lake of Fire." A shade, or silmilar idea of the one played out with Israel. As we grow and mature we go through a transforming as God raises us up in the presence of Christ. We are being disciplined (taught) to adhere to Jesus, to throw out self-righteousness, to give up on others to get us to God. Just as Paul was aluding to that all things that happened to Israel was for us to learn from. This persoanl Lake of Fire will not be an actual burning, but will feel like it sometime, as we can all attest to having already experienced times though our life.

Hope that made sense.

[jabcat]

Hi Dallas.  Not Craig, I'll be brief.  It makes sense to me from a fulfilled, preterist POV, and is very interesting, thanks.  Question...if believers go through God's fire regularly for cleansing (and I believe we do), then where do you see the "lost", the-yet-to-be-saved in this scenario?  Thanks, James.

[Dallas]

Hay Jabcat;

From my POV all are already saved. 2000 years ago Jesus accomplished salvation, forgivenes of iniquiy and put away the membance of sin.

All people were included in that. Nothing triggers this to include them, nor are they seperate from it now.

Because Adam sinned, death entered and death through sin spread to all mankind since all men sinned and became "infected" with death, so-to-speak.

Jesus's accomplishment has dealt with that situation. Death has been put to death, however people are still not knowing of such a thing so they continue on as though nothing has changed and thus not engaging into the kindom rule.

Example

A man living as a bum, who believes he indeed is a bum eats out of garbage cans and sleeps in the streets, he  does so because that's what he believes he is. That man is actually a king yet doesn't know it so he continues on until some one tells him that he is a king. Unless someone tells him he will remain acting as a bum. However when someone tells him the goodnews and gives him a throne, a robe and a scepter he engages the world that he is rightfully apart of. He turns around and begins to feast on the supper that has been prepared for him. He can finally begin to engage the world as a king.

I don't believe anyone goes through any kind of fire. For in Him we are all perfected and made equal with Jesus, "for we are as He is in this world already."  1 John.

He is at work proving to us that brilliant understanding in order that we may fully engage wat He did for us. Like the bum we have so much we have been include into yet because we don't believe the great things he has done for us we still eat out of garbage cans. That proving can feel as though we are being put through the fire.

We are all, every sinle person who has been, is or will be created has been, is and will always be perfected in Jesus's acomplishment.

The effect of the accomplishment is speading, abounding to man even more than sin abounded in death does grace abound to us, the whole of God's children, all people. It was finished, never to be worked at again.

Jesus is resting and will never need to lift another finger, niether God for He has installed His Son as King on Zion.

None are lost, nor do any need to be found. Many have not heard of their inclusion and thier good news and thus are not benifiting from the cross, but they will...Jesus promised. And I go to see that they do, as many as get in my way.

We are all along the path going from the glory of death going to the glory of life. We all have been included, now we need to hear so that we can believe.


Let me tell you Jabcat, brother.

Because of what Jesus did you are perfected, sanctified, glorified and made into everything that is good and right with God. You lack nothing, God is always pleased with you, never dissapointed. You have been given all things, been included in all things. You need to wait for nothing. You are perfectly clean in all ways, never to be cleaned again. You have been finished. "For as Jesus is, so are you in this world already."(1 John)

His love is so great, why do we weaken it?

[jabcat]

Thanks for the reply.  Even though I don't fully see it this way at this time, your explanation is the clearest (human explanation) I've heard on this matter.  I'm sure I'll be thinking more on this, thanks again.  James.

[whyiloveitaly]

Hi all:
Thanks for all the input!

The note about us all going through the fire is important, because that is what salvation is all about. It's about purification, about becoming something that we are not right now. EVERY MAN's work shall be tested, yet he shall be saved. Those who are "walking in sin" are already covered by the blood of the lamb (otherwise Jesus would have to be sacrificed on a regular basis to atone for people today). Now they must be purified, just as believers are already going through the process.
But His atonement (at-one-ment) has covered everyone! THAT is the Gospel! THAT is the Good News! THAT's why the animal sacrifices have been put away! Because He is the Lamb that has taken away the sin of THE WORLD! Hallelujah!

The Old Testament sacrifices covered the sins of Israel. The Only Lamb of God has covered the sins of the world, and forever. Sin has been put away.  Praise GOD!!!

Love to all,
Brian

[Dallas]

Hello; whyiloveitaly

EVERY MAN's work shall be tested

You're seriously telling me that you can't see the conection bewteen that statemnt and and the old covenant. The covenant based upon an individuals works inorder to present themselves as righteous. Come on, that's sel-explanitory. You need to here the very thing you are saying friend.

Those who are "walking in sin" are already covered by the blood of the lamb (otherwise Jesus would have to be sacrificed on a regular basis to atone for people today). Now they must be purified, just as believers are already going through the process.

That statement is just in error. Sorry to be blunt but it's not biblical, it's definatley a north american religous statement, it just has no beaing in biblical theology.

1 john 4:17 "because as He (Jesus), so also are we in this world."

As a far as I understand it Jesus doesn't need any purification, thus neither do I.

1 Corinthians 1:30 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,"

Doesn't say yet we still need purification does it?

Titus 1:15 "To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled."

The idea that someone isn't pure comes from a mind that doesn't know that they are pure, because of what Jesus did. Becuase of Jesus all have been made pure, all have been purified by the blood, none are waiting on it. You defile the blood of Jesus by saying it hasn't cleansed you.

Those who are "walking in sin" are already covered by the blood of the lamb

Sorry, this again is a misunderstanding of scripture. The blood didn't cover sin it did away with sin. Shall people then continue in the ways of the former in the midst of the new, well they shouldn't but some definatley do, yet their behaviour doesn't discount or remove the fact that sin has been dealt with, no one is "still in sin."

The new covenant proclaims that;

Hebrews 8:7For "if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

   8For finding fault with them, He says,
         "(Q)BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
         WHEN I WILL EFFECT (R)A NEW COVENANT
         WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
      9(S)NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
         ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
         TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
         FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
         AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
      10"(T)FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
         AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
         I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
         AND I WILL WRITE THEM (U)ON THEIR HEARTS.
         AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
         AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
      11"(V)AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
         AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
         FOR (W)ALL WILL KNOW ME,
         FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
      12"(X)FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
         (Y)AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

   13When He said, "(Z)A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete (AA)But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Jesus's blood doesn't cover sin, it removes it from memory, God can even recall anyone ever being sinful, that apparently is our own doing!

Simply, people we need o start understanding that Jesus did more for us than our febel doctrines we hang onto can allow. Jesus accomplished all things and included us in that. He didn't hold anything back, He loves us!! It's us that abhore Him and refuse what His love has done.

Jesus's wasn't able to pufify me, yet He did make me all that is good and right in God! The very righteousness that God is, that's what I have become becasue of Him, 2 Corinthians 5:21. Yet He is too weak to make me pure with the same sacrifice? I am complete in Him Colossians 2:10. And the same is for everyone!

Don't seak in among a breathren that are complete and hang upon them the lie that they need, they have no need, they have Jesus!

[laren]

Hi Dallas, long time no talk


How are you??


Wondering why you think the new covenant applies to us??

8For finding fault with them, He says,
         "(Q)BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
         WHEN I WILL EFFECT (R)A NEW COVENANT
         WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
      9(S)NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
         ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
         TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
         FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
         AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.



Joh 4:22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[Dallas]

Hello Laren;

It's been awhile, doing fine. Good to see you still fighting.

Leave it to you to through in a dirty little cheap shot...lol.

The terms and conditions were met by Jesus, those terms were to include Israel and Judah, for He being born as a Jew under the law was included in the law requirements. Thus when He accomplished the feat recieved the new covenant reward, the promises etc.

This however rejected Israel, and Judah, both houses right, no because Jesus was representitive of both. He became the recipeint of the new covenant. Iwas established between Jesus and God not any man, or house.

The new covenant was between God and Jesus, all mankind however was effected as a result of that covenant!

Psalm 2:6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
         Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
      7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
         He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
         Today I have begotten You.
      8'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
         And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

The expression nations refers to non-hebrew and the expression earth refers to the hebrew.

Jesus ascended to heaven, judged by the old covenant as worthy to recieve the kingdom. He then poured out His blood on the mercy seat cleansing all His people, all those He inherited, and transfered them all into His marvelous kingdom of light.

The new covenant is finished, completed yet the effect of it reigns forevermore. In order to understand who we are, what we are and furthermore where do we all stand in the grand scheme and day-to-day aspects of it all we need to know what took place.

The new covenant applies to us becuase we are effected, surrounded and saturated by it for our lord reigns. We are in His kindom and the "law of the land" so-to-speak is the rule of grace/new covenant.

Salvation is of the jews...of course it was, Jesus was born a jew, under jewish law and sacrificed by the jews and was raised as salvation to all. Salvation wasn't of the Gentiles.

for He shall save His people from thier sins...yes He did, he also saved all mankind in the same task. Very efficient individual. Two birds with one stone, yup, yup.

Come now laren, you know i must speak to you in a manner pleasing to our relationship and time put into it that was a very advanced question.

[Molly]

Hi Dallas--could you just explain to me, if everything is completed and Jesus is reigning--why is the world in such bad shape with unspeakably evil people still running around doing unspeakably evil things?

I'm still confused by what you are saying, I guess.

I expect his kingdom to rule on earth one day.

[Dallas]

Hay Molly;

like I posted earlier;

Example

A man living as a bum, who believes he indeed is a bum eats out of garbage cans and sleeps in the streets, he  does so because that's what he believes he is. That man is actually a king yet doesn't know it so he continues on until some one tells him that he is a king. Unless someone tells him he will remain acting as a bum. However when someone tells him the goodnews and gives him a throne, a robe and a scepter he engages the world that he is rightfully apart of. He turns around and begins to feast on the supper that has been prepared for him. He can finally begin to engage the world as a king.

I don't believe anyone goes through any kind of fire. For in Him we are all perfected and made equal with Jesus, "for we are as He is in this world already."  1 John.

He is at work proving to us that brilliant understanding in order that we may fully engage wat He did for us. Like the bum we have so much we have been include into yet because we don't believe the great things he has done for us we still eat out of garbage cans. That proving can feel as though we are being put through the fire.

We are all, every sinle person who has been, is or will be created has been, is and will always be perfected in Jesus's acomplishment.

The effect of the accomplishment is speading, abounding to man even more than sin abounded in death does grace abound to us, the whole of God's children, all people. It was finished, never to be worked at again.

Now does everyone know this, has everyone been made aware, absolutley not. Because thery aren't awre they don't believe and continue on as bums, eating out of garbage. They need to be awaken unto righteousness, they suffer needlessly. They need to hear, not doctrines and new behaviors, but their inlcusion into fulness.

Romans 10:11 "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

   12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

   13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

   14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him (T)whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without (U)a preacher?

   15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "(V)HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO (W)BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

[Molly]

But, Dallas--I'm talking about the people who know, who have heard, who have rejected it --because their deeds are evil and they want to continue in their evil deeds because it gives them money, power, an inflated sense of self worth, makes them feel like God himself.  That is the way they like it.

What about them?  There are a handful of people who are suppressing all of humanity for their own ends.  They create wars, fund both sides, make a killing literally and figuratively, withhold technology, allow children to die of starvation and lack of medicine, cause horrible suffering and destruction on purpose.  These are the people Jesus identifies as being like their father the devil.

[laren]

But, Dallas--I'm talking about the people who know, who have heard, who have rejected it --because their deeds are evil and they want to continue in their evil deeds because it gives them money, power, an inflated sense of self worth, makes them feel like God himself.  That is the way they like it.

What about them?  There are a handful of people who are suppressing all of humanity for their own ends.  They create wars, fund both sides, make a killing literally and figuratively, withhold technology, allow children to die of starvation and lack of medicine, cause horrible suffering and destruction on purpose.  These are the people Jesus identifies as being like their father the devil.

is it possible, as long as one continues to define the "world" by "good and evil" we will continue to see "good and evil".  When one defines the world through the lens of "unconditional love", the world changes.

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".

[laren]

The expression nations refers to non-hebrew and the expression earth refers to the hebrew.

I have never heard the description above, as "nations" referring to non hebrew and "earth" to hebrew.  do you come to that conclusion through scriptural comparison? or how do you come to that conclusion?? 

thanks for your reply, and I see as as basically "children" of the new covenant.  I think that's kind of what u were saying too. 

any way you look at it, imo; GOD is LOVE, and he is at PEACE with us.  I agree; we are not all at peace with HIM, but LOVE is exponential imo.


Glad to see ya back online. 

 




 

[Molly]

is it possible, as long as one continues to define the "world" by "good and evil" we will continue to see "good and evil".  When one defines the world through the lens of "unconditional love", the world changes.

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".

No, --not and be in touch with reality.

There is so much evil around--I don't know what else to call it.

I'm thinking more that people have to wake up to it.

[laren]

is it possible, as long as one continues to define the "world" by "good and evil" we will continue to see "good and evil".  When one defines the world through the lens of "unconditional love", the world changes.

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".

No, --not and be in touch with reality.

There is so much evil around--I don't know what else to call it.

I'm thinking more that people have to wake up to it.

Love without conditions, is a tough one to accept. 

Do you see God as loving without conditions??

[Molly]

I think he loves unconditionally, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know where to draw the line.


37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"--Matt 23