Putting your life on the line for belief in Universal Salvation.

[Mickiel]

 Belief in Universal Salvation is a Life committment, and thats in more ways than one. You are putting your Life on the Line, think no two ways about it. You are believing that the gates of hell willnot claim anyone, and you are included in that. You are making a decision on your very Life. You have decided to stand before God , with this belief, and you are staking your eternal Life on it. This then is not a gamble, who would gamble on their very Life? Its a Die hard committment, because you will die hard if your wrong. Anyone who believes this understanding, this Hope, is putting their Life, their most valued possession, on the Line. You are taking Christ literally at his Word, as in John 6:33;" For the Bread of God is that which comes down out of Heaven, and Gives Life to the " World."

We believe exactly what this has spoken from our Lord, that the Father is " Giving Eternal Life away", and giving it to the entire created earth and its population as a whole. Our committment is then " Whole", excluding none. We believe that this " Giving to the World", is a universal statement of Salvation being an unearned Gift from God. We believe this so much, so intense, that we scale above all other known doctrines that limit Salvation in any kind of manner, even to just one person, no matter what kind of sinner they have been, that the Father will still Give Life to them again in eternity, and we view this as the blessed Hope.

Now John 6:33 states that the Father gave his Bread to the World and that gives Life to the World. In John 8:12, again Jesus;" I am the Light of the World, he who follows me shallnot walk in Darkness, but shall have the Light of Life." Jesus is the Bread of God, and his Words are the Bread of Life. Jesus put HIS Life on the Line for his beliefs, and listen, so must we!

A serious belief in God, IS a Life being put on the Line. Its a sacrifice, a total committment, an investing of your total being into a movement that engulfs your entire soul. This IS the Cross of Christ, and its why the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to this Life in Christ, and few there be who find it. Because the average human does not, willnot take such a risk on their Life. In order to walk into the belief in Universal Salvation, you have to invest your Life, to see the Light and Life of Christ, and go to your cross, and get on it to be prepared to die! To stand before God, with your Life invested in this belief as the gospel, and trust in him to bring you off of the cross , into Life.

Now as you personally grow into this belief, then your sacrifice must grow, as you begin to understand the cross you have taken on. Your putting your life on the line, or, you are doing exactly what Christ did, you must be willing to die for your belief. Because you will, in fact, I will get into later that death is required of you. People ask you why do you believe in such foolishness, your dooming yourself. Well their partly correct, you are giving your Life, but its being given for a belief that the bread of Life is for ALL, which is the EXACT same belief that Jesus died for. On the cross, Jesus was bargianing for the Life of ALL, he was not dying just for believers. Everyone being saved was on his mind on that cross, and having the mind of Christ, is having that SAME mental belief in your heart!

Again Jesus in Mark 8:34-35;" If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wishes to save his Life, shall lose it. But whoever loses his Life for my sake and the Gospels shall save it."

Putting your Life on the Line.

To take up the cross of Christ, is to die for the same reason Jesus died, or to live your life in belief, as you march toward your death. The same belief of Christ. Now what did Jesus believe? That IS the backbone of the truth, and MUST define your belief. Are you giving your life for nothing? Is belief in the Salvation of all a misunderstanding? Did Jesus die for all, AND believe that all will be saved?

You'd better know, your putting your Life on the Cross.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Now I am going to walk through what Christ believed, but I want to base it on this foundation that HE set in Mark 10:27;" With men it is impossible, but NOT with God; for ALL THINGS are possible with God." Jesus was discussing how hard it is to enter the Kingdom of God. He examined how hard it would be for rich people to make this total committment, and understood human nature, all its limitations. He said it would be hard, but not impossible. He knew that God is actively DOING the impossible for humanitys future, ALL of humanity. This is what we believe, and MUST grow into comfort with this belief. This sacrifice. This thing of ours. Your sacrifice has to grow with your knowledge. Your knowledge CANNOT outgrow your sacrifice, and this is a problem for many.

Your sacrifice, your surrender, or your willingness to give up the things that are not of God, must outgrow your knowledge. That " Other deity that you are accoustomed to paying homage too."

The Thing so surrendered is the thing so devoted to. Remember that.

So devoted to, that you willingly give your Life to it. This is the Cross of Christ, its what he believed. Give your Life to your belief. Don't give your Life to your Knowledge, knowledge changes, can be misunderstood.

Sacrifice is to dispose of reguradless of profit. And its hard to get rid of knowledge that you are convinced of, that it brings you so much benefit now.


This is Jesus sacrifice; Luke 9:56;" For the Son of man didnot come to destroy mens Lives, but to Save them." Now ALL knowledge contained within the Bible, CANNOT, DOES NOT, outgrow or surpass this sacrifice! Men can think and live as if they will gain the whole world, but Jesus went after the perminent sacrifice that would save them from ultimate destruction.

Jesus put his hand to this Plow, and he is not looking back. His sacrifice was for all of humanity, although his knowledge is misunderstood by humanity. Our Salvation is NOT based on Christ Knowledge, its based on his sacrifice! YOUR salvation is not based on your knowledge, its based on YOUR Lords sacrifice!

Because knowledge will sacrifice humans and doom them to hell, thats what knowledge will do. Conversely it will make Kings before their time, it does that too. It goes to both extremes. Knowledge can be extreme, sacrifice is humility. The thing surrendered is the thing devoted to.

Anyhow, I want to go into certain scriptures and show you something.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Christ knew he was sacrifical, but his compassion was even more to him. He knew even his sacrifice would be misunderstood. So he at least wanted his compassion to be heard. Matt.9:12-13;" It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means;" I desire compassion, and not sacrifice, for I didnot come to call the righteous, but sinners."  What this means is Mercy , I.E., or more than. Jesus was destined to be sacrificed, but he desired to have compassion on humanity even more so than being killed. Even more than his death, he wanted to have mercy on all of humanity, these are the innards of his heart, and then the innards of our belief in Universal Salvation. Christ intimately believed in the Salvation of all Sinners. He came for that reason, as he plainly states here, it is the reason in his heart.

Now although Christ has already been sacrificed, the purpose of his death already a done deed which we believe in, the compassion of Christ is what should be extended into the world through his believers. And this is how Christ is seen in you. AND, its how he is seen in the gospel truth in the message you are telling yourself, and this world. The true gospel message, is a message of ultimate compassion, transfered from the Father to Christ, from Christ to his followers, from them into the world. A flow of grace and compassion, nothing fits this like the message of Universal Salvation. Nothing! No other gospel message will heal the entire world, or save the sinners Jesus desires to save.

 So this is why we believe, and this belief needs maturing conviction, nothing wavering, but plently growing. Your sacrifice growing in front of your knowledge, and your compassion growing in front of that.  This is how we become a " Living Sacrifice", Rom.12:1, actively surrendering all the false concepts and devilish doctrines,  surrendering to Christ because we are devoted to him, submitting to the Father God, and looking to HIM to support your belief by maturing it. And ask him in prayer to keep your compassion in front of your sacrifice, and your sacrifice in front of your knowledge.

God will Sanctify your sacrifice.

Now a little more on Christ.

Peace.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I've already experienced much of that sacrifice.  God placed a choice before me, I know that if I put this belief of universal salvation away I can have many good friendships here in my personal life.  I can hang out with people and enjoy that fellowship, as long as I tuck my spirituality away and keep it hidden.

As much as I long, deeply long,  for such friendships to return to my "in person" life,  it would be my spiritual and emotional death to hide the glory of the gospel that God has revealed to me.  So, I can only believe one day that God will remove that daily pain from my emotions , until then, I know that pain is nothing compared to the disaster of hiding my faith.

[Mickiel]

I've already experienced much of that sacrifice.  God placed a choice before me, I know that if I put this belief of universal salvation away I can have many good friendships here in my personal life.  I can hang out with people and enjoy that fellowship, as long as I tuck my spirituality away and keep it hidden.

As much as I long, deeply long,  for such friendships to return to my "in person" life,  it would be my spiritual and emotional death to hide the glory of the gospel that God has revealed to me.  So, I can only believe one day that God will remove that daily pain from my emotions , until then, I know that pain is nothing compared to the disaster of hiding my faith.

Very well stated, I feel the same. Our personal lives is much of the sacrifice, our ways and means in our everyday living. I have been offered and writting positions, none of which I no longer accept. I have turned away from so many women I could have had, I don't care to count. I could have enjoyed a good " Bar and club life with my frat friends", but I turned away from that, the endless partys. My sex life could be out of sight, oh I thank God he turned me from that, after a long battle with me. I could have been an actor, God closed that off. I could have been one of the best drunks in town, God spared me that talent, and that battle lasted over 20 years. I could have been a catalyst for change in any neighborhood I lived in during my life, but God misdirected that talent. Rather than make a stand for change  for blacks , God sat me down and waged a war within me. A war that I at first misunderstood, I interpited it as self destruction.

But what it really was, were the seeds of putting my Life on the Line for a belief that I didnot know even existed.

And I want to talk about how Gods plans for us, often is lined with horrid humilitys. As his teachings are seared within us, we feel the pain of the heat, because its on. His hands are hands of Fire, and when he touches you, its not like some of these people are saying it is.

Peace.

[giftsimple]

Psalm 32:1. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.


Guess who that is.

[Mickiel]

Belief in Universal Salvation is a Life committment, I can't stress this enough. This is not some kind of " Church" to be attracted to, or a religion to be a part of. There are too many people who already misunderstand the church of God as it is, so I hardly ever bother with a study on the church, nor speak on it much. Universal Salvation is a way of Life, its not an exclusive club. Its a way of thinking, its an expression of a heart felt belief, its a Hope beyond measure. There will NEVER be a better Love than Gods, and Universal Salvation is the ultimate expression of that.

Gods plans can ONLY be understood by a righteous mind, which is why the world does not understand God, because none are righteous. Righteousness interpits Righteousness, which is why we do not know God. Life begat Life, Life came from Life, it didnot evolve on its own. Gods plans are Righteous, and they didnot evolve on their own, he brought them into being.

God actually planned on the suffering of humanity, and not just " His Church", EVERYONE! The bible states that all who live in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution, but that is not exclusive to just believers, who themselves think that suffering is " Spiritually limited to them", nothing could be further from the truth. ALL humans must suffer.

So what seperates the suffering of believers and non believers? Is there a seperation?

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[giftsimple]

So what seperates the suffering of believers and non believers? Is there a seperation?

There is no difference between believers and non believers in Gods Eye's.

Jesus is the "NEW COVENANT"

Parameters of God's "NEW COVENANT"


1. Men are not charged with sin even when they are "in the very act" of committing them.

2. We do not condemn men or judge them for those sins.

3. Sins are INSTANTLY FORGIVEN under the NEW COVENANT!

4. The SINS men commit ARE REMEBERED NO MORE by all those who embrace this Covenant and abide under its umbrella.

[Mickiel]

So what seperates the suffering of believers and non believers? Is there a seperation?

There is no difference between believers and non believers in Gods Eye's.

[

Well yes, this is correct, not really much difference at all. Oh one could get caught up in sematics and get picky and try to find some, but there really is not much of a difference when you are suffering. Hurt is hurt, pain is pain, suffering is suffering, and ALL suffering counts for something with God. Spiritual, called out and chosen suffering, hurts just like unbelieving carnal suffering.

Notice 2 Corinth. 1:3-7;" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Mercies and God of ALL comfort." That ALL comfort includes the totality of all of humanity, I would disagree with those spiritual minded believers who would try to limit this comfort to only believers.

" Who comforts us in all of our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort others, with the comfort God gives us." Again I would disagree with those so called " Annointed people", who only try to comfort those who they think are annointed. Then ignore the sufferings of unbelievers, something Jesus NEVER did.

" But if we are afflicted, it is for YOUR comfort and Salvation." When a called out human of God is afflicted, or suffers, it is for the comfort of others, AND their Salvation. You cannot limit salvation, thus you cannot limit the benefits of suffering, suffering is just as universal as Salvation, they go hand in hand.

We are putting our lives on the line for ALL of humanity. This means more to others than you know.

And I want to show a much larger picture and meaning of Salvation, and how your life adds meaning to Gods plans, and to humanity.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Notice again Jesus in Luke 24:25,"Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter his glory?" Interesting that Jesus refers to himself as the Christ, I think he did this because he knew his death was looming. But he said his suffering was " Necessary", or you can say required.

We have some christians who think the less they suffer, the more susscessful and closer to God they are. They have gotten into a mindset of living a life devoid of suffering. They are not really putting their lives on the line for their belief, they are expecting their belief to bless them with a life totally devoid of the suffering that Jesus called " Necessary." Pacified christians, susscessful christians, ( holy christians). Aviod the suffering, run from it, they are in effect, misunderstanding it. This type of believer is not really putting their life on the line for their belief. Thats why they only help people who are easy to help. They are building and house christians, only comming out in safe environments, how easy it is for this kind of believer to save themselves while others are struggling. Walk past a beggar and feel good about not giving, blaming the beggar for their condition. Blaming the world for its condition.

God is not going to use these kind of people to usher in his message during the last gritty days of this planet.

Its going to be a dirty job, a frightening job, not one for the weakhearted, but for the brave. The endtimes environment, and those God is going to use, they are being prepared NOW! Now, to suffer for their Christ. Their minds being conditioned to willingly, without question, give their very lives in the call of service to their belief. To their God.

And I want to jump into that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

One of the negative connotations of this universal belief that we Love, is that it will no doubt attract " Lazy believers", who are thrilled with the knowledge of the Christ doing it all for them. Actually turned on by the relief of the pressure of sin not forgiven. Enticed by the full measure of All being saved. Its safe content, its inclusive alluring. Their aittitudes, the force of their belief, is really driven by the freedom they begin to see in Christ. They crave more knowledge, more benefits, more and more and more. Their hearts being condition to take freely, and give nothing in return.

Notice this human dynamic, which I will call the " Greed tide."

Take out an ad in the newspaper. Tell the readers that there is a lake in your town that once bathed in, you are totally healed of all things. All sickness, all sin, all pain. Hundreds will come, thousands. And some running each other over to get there. Desperation will soon develop, perhaps chaos, as the greed for healing boils over.

The message of Universal Salvation will attract these kind of people, desperate for a belief that offers all the benefits, " Freely." A heart of belief developed from this dynamic, willnot really sacrifice for Christ, only for themselves. They willNOT really drink of the true cup of suffering that the Father is giving, they will ONLY drink of the benefits.

Again Jesus in John 18:11;" Put the sword away, shall I not drink of the cup the Father has given me?" Jesus didnot fight the suffering, like a lamb being led to the slaughter, he willingly gave his Life.

The true annointed of God, will be brought to this SAME mentality.

Peace.

[Kevin]

2nd Tim. 2.

    *  3.
    * Thou therefore endure hardness , as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

    * 4.
    * No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier .

[Kevin]

1st Peter 4.

    *  12.
    * Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

    * 13.
    * But rejoice , inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy .

    * 14.
    * If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of , but on your part he is glorified .

    * 15.
    * But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

    * 16.
    * Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed ; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

    * 17.
    * For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    * 18.
    * And if the righteous scarcely be saved , where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear ?

    * 19.
    * Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

[adam]

Mickiel ,  could you talk more about what seperates the suffering of non believers and believers please?

[Kevin]

I am just checking in for a moment.
I will be back online in about 2 hours.
theory does not work for me, I only directly talk about what I have been through.
I don't have the talent or Spiritual gift of Scholarship, of some, in this forum, that I am very
thankful for, this is a Graced Forum.

They will jump in as needed.

In some experiences that I know I could pass a polygraph with factual answers,
time and the Holy Spirit have worked in me to bring me to the truth that I can understand
at that moment, there can be layers of this Spirit of Truth.

I do not any longer stake my life on the world's knowledge. But I do take it into consideration
at times.

Thanks for your respond, will return.

K

[Mickiel]

Mickiel ,  could you talk more about what seperates the suffering of non believers and believers please?

[Mickiel]

Mickiel ,  could you talk more about what seperates the suffering of non believers and believers please?

I think this is an interesting subject, the suffering of believers verses non believers. Suffering has obvious things in common. All pain hurts, all misery is a sorrow, no matter who experiences it. But there is a suffering, that the bible calls " Chosen Suffering', such as in Acts 9:15-16. This kind of suffering is when God has personally chosen someone to be an instrument, a literal tool in his work. A life of great pain, Paul was a good example of this.

I really can't figure it out, why God would do this. I recall reading something by L.Ray Smith on this, he thought God did it to Paul, to actually keep Paul from becomming more stronger on this earth. That could have some merit to it. Nothing like suffering to keep you weak.

Then there is self inflicted suffering. Many people cannot come to God, because they are torturing themselves, and stuffing their lives full of sin. In these cases, the sin is actually the suffering, but they view it as the pleasure. Even certain Christians do this to themselves. Self tribulation, or your actually your own worst enemy. Just keep doing the same horreible things to yourself, year after year.

I myself have certain problems that I have never overcame. I am a believer, so those unbelievers who experience my same problems, what difference does that make to God? What really causes repentance? A real hard suffering experience, or the Holy Spirit? I have suffered all of my Life, and none of it has taught me anything about God, only how hardheaded I am. IF God decided that suffering is to be an instrument in a persons learning or growth, then it would be so for them.

Americans think they are the most Spiritual people on the  planet, but they have not suffered anywhere near how others in this world have suffered. So suffering does not mean your Spiritual, nor is it a sign of a relationship with God. But it could be a sign of something, because who God Loves, he chastens with many sufferings.

So suffering is a difficult topic to understand. I have just recently finished the worst 5 days of pain ever in my life, a bad case of Broncitus. The worst pain I have ever felt. I couldnot write, study or work. I literally begged God for release from it, and it finally broke yesterday. I am not a converted man, not a christian, not annointed, so at times I think my pain is meaningless, caused mostly by myself. So I see nothing Spiritual in my pain, only foolishness. My own ignorance.  My pain, my foolishness, makes me long for a relationship with God. To know him, to be real with him. I know I can never have this without him, which is a hard suffering.

But anyhow, I'll try to get a little more into it.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

One of the greatest sufferings that a human can experience, is for a believer to believe in God, but not know and understand him, or for an unbeliever to not know and understand him. Both are horrible experiences, or states of being.

I am a believer in God, but I do not know him, or understand him fluently. This is a great suffering. Not having his Spirit, not having a personal relationship with him, these are very great , gloomy burdens. Not knowing his plans for me, if he listens to me, or will answer so many prayers. I can either blame my sin for this, or just count myself amoung those humans who God ignores, and just hope for a later time with him.

Being conscious of God, yet not being in relationship with him, is like being operated on while still conscious, you simply have no control, as your insides are being ripped apart. Your Spirit is willing to be made new, but your flesh is still trapped in a body of sin. Believe me, this is a horrible existence, an awful suffering. I am a personal witness to it.

So being a believer in God, does not mean your suffering amounts to anything Spiritual, and conversely means that the suffering of unbelievers, means to God what it does, I don't think anyone knows how God views this.

Suffering does not nesseccerarily change humans. It often does the oppisite, makes them bitter and angry toward God. It has often done so to me. Angrily, I have often told God that I do not understand, he punishes me because of my sin, but does not give me the strength to overcome it. In Rev.16, God pours out Seven Great Bowls of Wrath. God places loathsome and malignant sores on men, turns the seas into blood and kills all the fish. He turns all the lakes and rivers into blood also. He turns up the heat from the sun and scorched men with it. Humans will be in so much pain, they will gnaw their own tounges, but notice vs, 9 and 11, " They still willnot repent."

So all suffering is NOT designed to lead to repentance. I think most suffering is designed to produce suffering. Indeed Romans 2:4 teachs that the " Goodness and Kindness of God", his forbearance and Patience Leads you to repent, not pain and suffering. This simply means Gods Spirit leads you to repent, thats what his Goodness and Kindness and Patience is, all fruits of his Spirit. This is how I know I do not have his Spirit, because I have not been sussessful at repenting of my sins. And Have tried for 35 years. Sin has more of a grip on me than God. But God can change this at anytime, and knowing he has not, is a great suffering. An intense feeling of Spiritual failure.

And I want to get into the pathology in that.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

One of the most interesting things about the bible and God, is that not everyone is going to be chosen at first, somebodys got to be left out. And I quess thats why I am attracted to Universal Salvations doctrine, because all will be included eventually, I just love the ideal of everyone being saved, because we all have suffered. We all have been deceived, and all are influence by Evil. We all have sinned, these universal constants, deserve a universal reaction from God.

So I often speak from these points of failure, failure is still an experience. I tell christians that I do not have Gods Spirit, and they just don't know how to react to that, because they themselves have stepped onto the other side of the Lake.

Its the Judas experience. Being conscious of God, but just not having a relationship with him, but yet he still has you do things for him. But eventually the sin in you, just gets the best of you, then sin does what it does, and you find yourself ashamed of yourself. I can relate to Judas there, he was so sorrowful, he killed himself. Even failure to serve God can spark intense emotions.

Repent and be Baptized, seems like a fairy tale to me. Going to a good church and having wonderful fellowship, seems like a thing of the past. And then believing in Universal Salvation, often seems like you have just thrown your beliefs away.

And I want to get into the " Suffering of believing in the Salvation of All." Because it is a suffering.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

[quote
And I want to get into the " Suffering of believing in the Salvation of All." Because it is a suffering.

Peace.
[/quote]


This world has gotten so far away from the truth, that its religions are perverted, our values are perverted, our Love is perverted,  even our very suffering has become perverted. Our beliefs are perverted. Over 2,000 years ago, even Jesus noticed this and it irritated even him. In Luke 9:41;" O unbelieving and Perverted generation, how long shall I be with you, and put up with you? He was refering to both the believers and unbelievers who were around him. Espically his powerless disciples, who were first asked to heal this mans only boy.

Even the believers in God are really unbelievers in many things about God, espically Universalism. And Jesus had to " Put up with this unbelief, from believers." That is really the true orgin of the church of God changeing its doctrines not long after Christ left this earth; Unbelief. The generation of unbelief in Universalism, started BEFORE Christ was born, at least 7 years before his birth. He was 33, a generation is 40, and the generation he was living in was perverted with unbelief in Gods true Power. Jesus came to save mens lives, somewhere along the generations, it is now believed that he came to condemn sinners and unbelievers to hell forever. A stark change in the mission of Christ, muchless the mission of the church.

20th century humans have been handed a whole gallery of perverted beliefs to begin with. To get to the truth, IS a suffering! I have never experienced anything like going from deception to the truth. Its unique transformation, its unorthodox nature, its unexpectancy, its volitile comprehension, and the volitile reaction it causes in others you interact with. The thousands of prayers to God, the endless study, the millions of questions, the unknown, the  mental pain, the lonliness, the isolation, it just goes on and on, year after year. And this IS the Plow that believers are EXPECTED to hold on to and not even look back at the deception you came out of.

Again Jesus in Luke 9:62, giving a very hardline approach to real committment in your belief;" No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God." If your going to believe in Universal Salvation, then it is a total unyeilding committment, you can't even LOOK back, or wonder what it would be like if you just gave up. You think to yourself that it would be better if you were dead, or living back in the Spiritual death you came from.

If Jesus came into my life, to teach me about Life, then why do I feel dead so much? Where are the star spangeled burst and banners of that Life, in my Life? Where is Jesus power in me, where is his thoughts, now how I think? When you do not see these things in your life, then you can either fabricate them,or your very Hope for them is really all that you have.

Either case is a suffering. And I want to get into that.

Peace.

[adam]

Mickiel:

But there is a suffering, that the bible calls " Chosen Suffering", such as in Acts 9:15-16. This kind of suffering is when God has personally chosen someone to be an instrument, a literal tool in his work. A life of great pain, Paul was a good example of this.

I really can't figure it out, why God would do this. I recall reading something by L.Ray Smith on this, he thought God did it to Paul, to actually keep Paul from becomming more stronger on this earth. That could have some merit to it. Nothing like suffering to keep you weak.

Yes that's true.  On the other hand suffering can make you strong  , it can be a great motivator.  I read in the FT that head hunters looking to recruit CEOs and other senior leadership roles try to find folk who had some form of  trauma in their early life – as very high achievers tend to have difficult backgrounds.  So it works both ways.

Keats wrote that suffering is essential for "soul building" . 


In Alain de Botton's excellent book the Architecture of Happiness he talks about how its in dialogue with pain that beautiful things acquire their value. Some may need to have seen life's authentic tragic colours before they can fully appreciate beauty . 

The theologian Paul Tillich said art used to leave him cold as a trouble free young man, despite the best efforts of his teachers and parents. Then after WWI where most of his unit was slaughtered he came across Botticelli's Madonna and Child with Eight Singing Angels and on meeting the wise tender gaze of the Virgin he surprised himself by breaking down into uncontrollable sobs.

We can't develop a soul that can fully Love God, and fully appreciate the eternal blissful union with Himself and others that is our final destination, without exposure to a world of with suffering in it.  And I think in this way the suffering of unbelievers and believers are very similar.

You talk about "Chosen Suffering" .  In some cases it might not be just God doing the choosing, the individual soul might have nobley  chosen a life with more suffering  that it needed, so sharing in Christ's sacrifice (Col 1:24 , 2 Tim 3:12 , 1 Peter 4:12).  The rewards for suffering with Christ are eternal , both for ourselves and for others (1 Peter 4:13; & 5:10).
While not fully developed, the soul is conscious and capable of communication with God even before it enters this life   (Jeremiah 1:5).    You say that suffering isn't always an instrument of growth, and that is undeniably true on earth, but when we can see from outside the box on the other side I think we'll know that all suffering is meaningful.    I find it hard to conceive how our all powerful and Loving Lord would allow us to suffer were this not true.


About a month back our  Bible reading was John 15 1 - 17, and the vicar said that when Christ talked about God pruning every branch that bears fruit to make them more fruitful, it means that God sometimes causes us to suffer what can seem to be appalling hardships and periods of spiritual hardship. But that these periods never last , they serve a purpose, and that God loves us and cares for us very deeply indeed, and is walking with us all the time, even when it doesn't seem like it.  I guess the point is there's meaning in everything , even and perhaps especially when all seems pointless. Anyway I think you are a very fruitful person , at least I find most of the posts I read of yours to be fruitful, so that may be why you often have a hard time. 

As you say I don't think there's a consistent lesson. There are scores of biblical passages where God blesses those He loves. Sometimes very spiritual people suffer intensely, but I think sometimes they help in other ways.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=adam

 I guess the point is there's meaning in everything , even and perhaps especially when all seems pointless.
As you say I don't think there's a consistent lesson. There are scores of biblical passages where God blesses those He loves. Sometimes very spiritual people suffer intensely, but I think sometimes they help in other ways.
[/quote]



Well I certainly hope there is meaning in what seems pointless, I certainly hope that to be true. God and Christ are busy building the Kingdom of God, I mean literally in Heaven at this moment. Creating and expanding it to involve humanity, while humanity is yet suffering on earth. They just seem to be beyond the human experience, out of our realm. While we were yet sinners, Jesus Died for all of us, even then he was ahead of our experiences. They just do things that at times, I just do not understand, suffering merely one of them. I can easily believe that the Spirit world, really IS another world, totally different dimension.

Jesus and God phase in and out of it, at times, as if they are totally ignoring the human experience, as if it just does not matter whats going on, then they switch and pay attention to incredible detail in humanity. It just makes no sense at all at times. Notice Rev. 11:1-2, the so called " Times of the Gentiles." Which will last 42 months. The Apostle John was given a measuring rod , like a stick,  and was told to measure the Temple of God, AND the Altar, AND those who worship in it." Then told not to measure the outside of the Temple, because it had been given to the nations , for them to just stomp on it for 42 months.

Thats really weird to me. Oh I could show some great analogys concerning what it even means to measure a church, to measure a people, to measure their doctrines and ways of worship, and get into how God must really care, just to have this done. But then he turns around and gives the outer perimeters of all that, to the abuse of the world. And I could show what that means Spiritually also, but the point being, its confusing. To me it is.

And God does this to certain humans Lives. Working in and out, up and down, Good and evil, Joy and saddness, measuring you inside, and giving your outer perimeter chaos.

Jesus could have ignored being baptised, he certainly didnot really need to be, but he said to John ," Permit it at this time; for in this way, " It is Fitting." Can you get to that? Fitting! It just fit the moment, and fit the scriptures being fulfilled. The actual moments in time where the Spirit world, phases into the Physical world, and they " Fit together." Really impossible, but yet made possible.

So somewhere in Gods mind, the human suffering " Fits into something he is currently working", and I for one can't wait to be shown what this all means. Because its not fitting to me. I have had my fill of it, as have all of human history, and I see no end in sight. So God is stretching human suffering like a great rubberband, but hes not letting it break.

And I tell you somethingelse, the suffering HAS NOT broken the human will. So I disagree with those who think God uses suffering to break the human will. I think human will can go beyond suffering, and adjust itself accordingly. The will of the Jews was not broken by the great suffering Hitler placed on them. And you can find many examples of other races in history enduring great hardships, stubbornly not giving in.

No, I think God is getting at somethgingelse. I think Jesus experience again is a key in understanding this. What did the suffering do to Jesus? Did it change him? Did it make his characther grow? Did it draw him closer to God? I personally don't think it did any of these things to him. I really don't think so. I think the suffering was mostly an irritation to Christ. But if I knew what Jesus got out of it, I would then know what we get out of it.

I just don't know.

Peace.

[firstborn888]

[quote author=adam

 I guess the point is there's meaning in everything , even and perhaps especially when all seems pointless.
As you say I don't think there's a consistent lesson. There are scores of biblical passages where God blesses those He loves. Sometimes very spiritual people suffer intensely, but I think sometimes they help in other ways.

Well I certainly hope there is meaning in what seems pointless, I certainly hope that to be true. God and Christ are busy building the Kingdom of God, I mean literally in Heaven at this moment. Creating and expanding it to involve humanity, while humanity is yet suffering on earth. They just seem to be beyond the human experience, out of our realm. While we were yet sinners, Jesus Died for all of us, even then he was ahead of our experiences. They just do things that at times, I just do not understand, suffering merely one of them. I can easily believe that the Spirit world, really IS another world, totally different dimension.

Jesus and God phase in and out of it, at times, as if they are totally ignoring the human experience, as if it just does not matter whats going on, then they switch and pay attention to incredible detail in humanity. It just makes no sense at all at times. Notice Rev. 11:1-2, the so called " Times of the Gentiles." Which will last 42 months. The Apostle John was given a measuring rod , like a stick,  and was told to measure the Temple of God, AND the Altar, AND those who worship in it." Then told not to measure the outside of the Temple, because it had been given to the nations , for them to just stomp on it for 42 months.

Thats really weird to me. Oh I could show some great analogys concerning what it even means to measure a church, to measure a people, to measure their doctrines and ways of worship, and get into how God must really care, just to have this done. But then he turns around and gives the outer perimeters of all that, to the abuse of the world. And I could show what that means Spiritually also, but the point being, its confusing. To me it is.

And God does this to certain humans Lives. Working in and out, up and down, Good and evil, Joy and saddness, measuring you inside, and giving your outer perimeter chaos.

Jesus could have ignored being baptised, he certainly didnot really need to be, but he said to John ," Permit it at this time; for in this way, " It is Fitting." Can you get to that? Fitting! It just fit the moment, and fit the scriptures being fulfilled. The actual moments in time where the Spirit world, phases into the Physical world, and they " Fit together." Really impossible, but yet made possible.

So somewhere in Gods mind, the human suffering " Fits into something he is currently working", and I for one can't wait to be shown what this all means. Because its not fitting to me. I have had my fill of it, as have all of human history, and I see no end in sight. So God is stretching human suffering like a great rubberband, but hes not letting it break.

And I tell you somethingelse, the suffering HAS NOT broken the human will. So I disagree with those who think God uses suffering to break the human will. I think human will can go beyond suffering, and adjust itself accordingly. The will of the Jews was not broken by the great suffering Hitler placed on them. And you can find many examples of other races in history enduring great hardships, stubbornly not giving in.

No, I think God is getting at somethgingelse. I think Jesus experience again is a key in understanding this. What did the suffering do to Jesus? Did it change him? Did it make his characther grow? Did it draw him closer to God? I personally don't think it did any of these things to him. I really don't think so. I think the suffering was mostly an irritation to Christ. But if I knew what Jesus got out of it, I would then know what we get out of it.

I just don't know.

Peace.
[/quote]

What helps to know is that God is not separate from the suffering of humans or all of creation for that matter. He suffers with us and in us and rejoices in us and with us. Even in the fall of a sparrow...