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Offline onesimus

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a quiet word
« on: September 17, 2014, 04:55:31 AM »
Hi folks, God bless you all - as I'm sure he is and does and will continue to do - as you continue to look for the truth that makes us free.

I have spent a couple of hours or so today and yesterday looking through a few of your forums and I am going to share something with you that I hope does not bring offense to you good people.

I've been a believer for a very long time and have had a revelation from the Lord (also for many years) of the cross and its implications for us all.

I cannot begin to describe the freedom and peace I have entered into and that continues to grow deeper as my fellowship with him becomes richer. All starting at the cross, where his true nature is, at last, unveiled and his astonishing final word expressed: of unlimited love and embrace of all. In fact, for me, there is little in this life that is absolute, except the cross and the unimaginable love it represents - in its light, everything else is freely negotiable.

In honesty, from an outsider's POV, what you have going on here weighed me down.  I'm not sure how long it is since some of you stepped aside and observed your forums from an objective angle. I sense your conversation started with the seeds of a beautiful truth and somehow got bogged down in a kind of rigorous, dogma-laden (seemingly), analysis.

Jesus came and died to end religion, slavery to sin, the law, so man could enter freedom and find genuine rest for his  soul. And let's face it, look around you, most people are just really tired :)

We can never find unity through doctrinal conformity. God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..

I could share my experience with the scriptures, how they show man's judgement to be an illusion of his own making - one that God profoundly shattered and brought to an end - but I don't want to contribute to a debate in these pages  - may God open them to you as you walk along side him. This quiet word is just a hint and an opinion that I felt to offer. Do with it what you will. I feel that many of these details you are getting caught up in are red herrings, and might be keeping you from the living experience of truth. We can sometimes get trapped among the scaffolding instead of moving into the finished palace. The scriptures are a gift for our use, not a book of laws or obligations to be endlessly dissected, as if they were, in themselves, the goal. In this operation 'the letter kills.'  The bible is not the way - it is an arrow pointing to the one who is the way. It is a guide book to another country; the promised land - one that we are freely invited to live in.  There, we put the written text back in its place (using it, at will, to serve us  - not the other way around) and the living word, Jesus, becomes the one detail we forever (willingly) pour over.

I am confident you will keep on finding new freedom as you continue to seek him with the good, wonderful, searching hearts that you all have ..

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 02:04:51 PM »
 
 Hi Onesimus .
 I appreciate your point of view .
 Glad you shared it .
 I always loved short , sweet and to the point   answers    backed up with  the same  scriptures    as a  Witness .
 I have had a long dry spell and dont share    a lot of thoughts with   this forum or anyone   for that matter
 
 Like I believe  when the HOLY SPIRIT   moves who can stop it ?
  I agree   we  should not sniffle it  :thumbsup:
 
   But  I believe   the   WORD OF GOD     is  two edged and    kills and makes Alive
     Some things  are better put to rest    :grave:  but some things we become bolder   to speak   about .
 
 Glory to God     with thanks for helping us all   come out  of a dead  zone//works    way of thinking .
  and can only see one way of thinking   
 
 

Quote
We can never find unity through doctrinal conformity. God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..

I could share my experience with the scriptures, how they show man's judgement to be an illusion of his own making - one that God profoundly shattered and brought to an end - but I don't want to contribute to a debate in these pages  - may God open them to you as you walk along side him. This quiet word is just a hint and an opinion that I felt to offer. Do with it what you will. I feel that many of these details you are getting caught up in are red herrings, and might be keeping you from the living experience of truth. We can sometimes get trapped among the scaffolding instead of moving into the finished palace. The scriptures are a gift for our use, not a book of laws or obligations to be endlessly dissected, as if they were, in themselves, the goal. In this operation 'the letter kills.'  The bible is not the way - it is an arrow pointing to the one who is the way. It is a guide book to another country; the promised land - one that we are freely invited to live in.  There, we put the written text back in its place (using it, at will, to serve us  - not the other way around) and the living word, Jesus, becomes the one detail we forever (willingly) pour over.

I am confident you will keep on finding new freedom as you continue to seek him with the good, wonderful, searching hearts that you all have ..

To me the illusion of  judgment ?  I do not think its a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

Like a    mirage, hallucination, apparition, figment of the imagination, trick of the light,
   nor a deceptive appearance or impression. 


  Certainly not a false idea or belief.     I do believe if we are seeking the  Lord   ,  Jesus     was sincere in telling us      when we judge  we will be judged  in the same  manner /heart     , and forgive    or your not forgiven but held responsible     till you repent and change your mind     ,  forgiveness is about  Not becoming bitter     and  defiling everything   , so in  that sense  you are judging yourself , His Word does judge us all .
 How can that be an illusion of judgment ?
 I know I have been judged and found wanting / lacking   ,  and can speak this  from experiences .    and have seen others suffering the same  development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power. Find this as a part of being  human as well as Spiritual in  nature  , anyone who  understands this much  , knows I am telling the truth    here .
 
  Looking forward to what   else  you do have   to share  :thumbsup:
 
  God bless you and yours as well
 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:55:19 PM by rosered »

Offline lomarah

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 02:21:47 PM »
"The bible is not the way - it is an arrow pointing to the one who is the way."

TRUTH!!

 :thumbsup:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 02:32:58 PM »
"The bible is not the way - it is an arrow pointing to the one who is the way."

TRUTH!!

 :thumbsup:
  :thumbsup:

   how many    stumble over   the Word  ,  written   word   the letter that kills   , the spoken Word that    we hear  ,  right or wrong
  and the Living Word that brings new Life    to those whom were  as  dead     :icon_flower:
 
  Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling

, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,


25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty,

 dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Offline ed

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 03:21:42 PM »
Yeah,

They're a little Bible heavy around here.   :dsunny:

The whole doctrine of heaven and hell is derived from theological interpretation of the Bible.  The Bible is where the prison of doctrine begins for many people who are desperately in need of Bible answers to their questions.

Just point to Jesus Christ is a great thing to do, but we can't escape the Bible and dealing with doctrinal issues.  I know not everyone is going to agree with me on all doctrine.  People are fine building their own doctrinal stances and trying them on to see how they fit. 

When people start saying that their doctrine is the truth, the truth must question.

 If you say that any louder we will have a doctrinal issue to deal with.

 :laugh:

 :2c:

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 03:32:55 PM »
Yeah,

They're a little Bible heavy around here.   :dsunny:

The whole doctrine of heaven and hell is derived from theological interpretation of the Bible.  The Bible is where the prison of doctrine begins for many people who are desperately in need of Bible answers to their questions.

Just point to Jesus Christ is a great thing to do, but we can't escape the Bible and dealing with doctrinal issues.  I know not everyone is going to agree with me on all doctrine.  People are fine building their own doctrinal stances and trying them on to see how they fit. 

When people start saying that their doctrine is the truth, the truth must question.

 If you say that any louder we will have a doctrinal issue to deal with.

 :laugh:

 :2c:

  Well ed , don't the TRUTH set you free ?
   From even    the prison  of doctrinal issues ?    lol    :laughing7:   
 
  and obliviously  some folks take it a lot more seriously with earnest intent and  not  as  lightly or superficially, than others do   
 
  You got to love their Zeal        :dontknow:
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 03:45:30 PM by rosered »

Offline marie glen

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 04:32:03 PM »

God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..

I love that line! And I believe it.. yet one day, surely, all will know complete truth and agree with it, for I believe any untruth cannot stand.. (I figure we all have some things right and some things not as right! :laughing7: )

To me the Bible is the ruler (measuring rod) as to what is true and what isn't.. But like "the preacher" said in Ecclesaistes.. something like "life is simple but man has many inventions" ..we humans complicate things? making simple things not so simple? I think at the root of all twisting and turning (complicating) of the Word is a false idea somewhere? I can't help it, I am really zealous for truth and I'm glad the LORD gave us the Word as the rod and measuring stick, otherwise we'd have to rely on human reasoning :eek:  :smile:
- Does it say no repentance after death? being resurrected still in their sins (2nd Resurrection) during age of Judgment? sure to be weeping and wailing?
- Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
- "Behold I make aLL things new" Rev21:5
- "On every high mountain and hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day ..when the towers fall." Is 30:25
- "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1
- "The lion will eat straw like the ox.. the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
- "They will sit each under his vine, and under his fig-tree, with none troubling.." Micah 4:4

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 04:48:23 PM »

God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..

I love that line! And I believe it.. yet one day, surely, all will know complete truth and agree with it, for I believe any untruth cannot stand.. (I figure we all have some things right and some things not as right! :laughing7: )

To me the Bible is the ruler (measuring rod) as to what is true and what isn't.. But like "the preacher" said in Ecclesaistes.. something like "life is simple but man has many inventions" ..we humans complicate things? making simple things not so simple? I think at the root of all twisting and turning (complicating) of the Word is a false idea somewhere? I can't help it, I am really zealous for truth and I'm glad the LORD gave us the Word as the rod and measuring stick, otherwise we'd have to rely on human reasoning :eek:  :smile:


 :thumbsup:      Good thoughts Marie ,     found it . Ecc  7  ;  29Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
and

 Roman 1  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,


 His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made,


 so that they are without excuse.


 21 For even though they knew God,


 they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,


 but they became futile in their speculations,

 and their foolish heart was darkened.
 

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 07:09:20 PM »

God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..

I love that line! And I believe it.. yet one day, surely, all will know complete truth and agree with it, for I believe any untruth cannot stand.. (I figure we all have some things right and some things not as right! :laughing7: )

To me the Bible is the ruler (measuring rod) as to what is true and what isn't.. But like "the preacher" said in Ecclesaistes.. something like "life is simple but man has many inventions" ..we humans complicate things? making simple things not so simple? I think at the root of all twisting and turning (complicating) of the Word is a false idea somewhere? I can't help it, I am really zealous for truth and I'm glad the LORD gave us the Word as the rod and measuring stick, otherwise we'd have to rely on human reasoning :eek:  :smile:

  Really Love this Marie .
 especially
  Gods Word is the measuring rod !!  :thumbsup:


Quote
We can never find unity through doctrinal conformity. God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..
            ONE SPIRIT, ONE GOD till  we can all realize that   :HeartThrob:   

Offline Seth

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 07:17:58 PM »
I agree. We definitely don't get life from the Bible. We get it from the Holy Spirit. But the Bible can help us understand what the Spirit did, what it's doing, and what it will do. If I never discussed things with other Christians about doctrine and the Bible, I might still be an ETer, just a sittin' in my pew, twiddling my thumbs and being afraid of the dark. The doctrines were written for the church. They are a valuable, even priceless, precious word from God's chosen ministers to us, and are there for our understanding.

At the end of Christ's ministry, it says that he "opened their understanding to the scriptures." When we read the New Testament, there are scores, and scores, of references to the Hebrew scriptures, and they all discussed them and even argued. They even created the first Council of Jerusalem to hash some difficulties out and where everyone stood with grace and the Law etc. They all needed to voice their concerns and listen to others and that is what I see happening on this forum too. I don't see anything wrong with that, personally.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 07:29:03 PM »
Reading this thread, I recall a wonderful science fiction story I read years ago, and I just wish I could remember title & author.  Anyway, in the story, aliens arrive with an ultimatum:  SHOW CAUSE WHY HUMANITY SHOULD NOT BE DESTROYED.  The matter was passed around, and I remember that the Jews admitted that they had faced the issue before.  It went around and around, and just before the deadline, a hippie living in the woods was asked.  He said, "It just is, man!"  The aliens were satisfied with the answer.

Does it bear on this thread discussion?  Yes, I think so, because if what we believe is true, it just is, and does not need picking apart and then building up a theo-illogical superstructure.  Remember that "Theology absorbs twenty-seven times its own weight in excess reality."
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline jabcat

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 08:24:03 PM »

At the end of Christ's ministry, it says that he "opened their understanding to the scriptures."

A lot of good replies, including *Jesus is the focus and necessary Piece - ongoing and close relationship with Him.  Just a little note as discussion continues - I personally believe the direct context (and many other references) show that the statement "the letter kills" is specifically talking about the Law - not the Holy Spirit's inspired Words to us - written, spoken, revealed, or otherwise - which are alive and sharp as a two-edged sword.  Revealing, cutting, exposing, changing what it touches, never returning void.  And I also don't believe anything spoken or "revealed" will ever, ever be against the written.  And if it's presented as such, then IMO it's either personal interpretation, or imagination - or worse. 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 08:34:45 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 08:29:40 PM »
Yes, I agree. In fact, Paul is even much more explicit in Romans 7 as to what manner the letter kills, that "the motions of sin which are by the Law" are what kill. The Spirit gives the life, the inward life. It's not that the Bible kills, though it is not our indwelling life. As Jesus said, you search the scriptures for in them you think you have life, but they speak about me.

I agree with some of the OP, but I also disagree that having conversations about doctrine and the scripture are somehow a distraction to that by necessity. I don't agree with that point of view.

Offline jabcat

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 08:32:06 PM »
Yes, added * to my post.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2014, 08:33:26 PM »
Just to add a point: I think that there is a stereotype in Christian culture of people who read the scriptures, and converse about doctrine as having their noses in a book and ignoring the living Christ. I take that for what it is, a stereotype, and I don't have to apply it to myself, even if others use it to identify me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2014, 08:38:09 PM »
That's a good point too.  I believe we often make assumptions, generalize, categorize, go too far one way or another - in effect, throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  Living in Him involves direct line of relationship with and to Him - but there are also many sides and facets to Him too.   :2c:  There's a lot involved, layers, deep things hidden - yet simple, in that the bottom line is faith and trust in Him, and remembering the joy of His Gift and forgiveness.   :dsunny:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline lastpost

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2014, 11:00:58 PM »
Quote
"The scriptures are a gift for our use, not a book of laws or obligations to be endlessly dissected, as if they were, in themselves, the goal. In this operation 'the letter kills.'  The bible is not the way - it is an arrow pointing to the one who is the way. It is a guide book to another country; the promised land - one that we are freely invited to live in.  There, we put the written text back in its place (using it, at will, to serve us  - not the other way around) and the living word, Jesus, becomes the one detail we forever (willingly) pour over."

Friend, I am in much agreement with your general sentiment. I am not here to argue but to learn, as part of my spiritual education both now and Hereafter, why it is that others, who are clearly passionate and dedicated, think and feel the way they do, and I truly feel for many because instilled fear and past theological damage is a dreadful thing to heal from.

What I have been learning since the nineties newsgroups, is that many follow the letter, yet use the letter to follow the Spirit, as you say
Quote
not the other way around
and by the 'letter', I refer to the mental permutations created from letters, words and phrases, and understand what you are referring to when you say
Quote
In this operation 'the letter kills.'

I have been taught that Christ is simple. For me, my Guide and Measure is Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit, external to the Bible, has literally taught me about the Christ Jesus recorded in the Bible - and once the genie is out of the bottle, there is no return.

As I see and feel it, Jesus the Christ was the greatest and most potent demonstration or portrayal of what the Supreme God is like, available to a human being: Christ the Man on Earth, was as much of the Absolute that humanity could, and can, take in - Perfection, Divine Love in the flesh. He literally came to be judged by man in His humility, representing the God to whom man owes his very existence - God the Great Parent. When He said that He and the Father were One, He was also asking for humanity to look at Him and judge Him and ask itself if its God is worthy of following.

In my opinion, the Holy Spirit has explained to me in great measure Christ's love; and has in a measure explained the nature and means of spiritual revelation both that found in the Bible and outside of it, and why the Bible is so charged with such beauty and Spirit; and also explained why my understanding of Jesus Christ seems so beautiful when the Jesus given to the world by many naming themselves Christians falls short of it..."Yes, I agree...but the Bible says..."

God is Love. Jesus is my Guide. The Holy Spirit can teach about Jesus - not my own words, mind and understanding - but the Holy Spirit teaches, speaks.

Christ is recorded as saying that everyone who is requesting is obtaining and who is seeking is finding, and while others are finding what they are looking for, I am seeking and I finding what I have been looking for - certainly not over night, yet He did say that the Spirit of Truth will guide into all the truth - and that the Holy Spirit will speak.

When I hear some of the things attributed to Love, God, Christ, by so many, I not only cringe but sometimes it feels as if someone is purposefully piercing me inside, it is a genuine pain, in my opinion.

I believe, and have no doubt personally, that there is further development for all genuine followers of Christ, each individually, once this physical life is over. This I see as aionios zoe - age-lasting life - [kolasis being for the wicked] until all notions of elitism are worked out, all learnt beliefs of somehow being spiritually fit to "judge the world" or whatever the idea is that is harbouring itself in the recesses of the soul, have been replaced with the humility so clearly demonstrated by the Master Christ in the Sacred Record.

The Father gathers us in. The past abates; the yesterdays which have gone are augmented by the present; and what is to come is charged with capacity and potential for eternal life. Glory to God on High.

Peace in understanding.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:15:05 PM by lastpost »
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one". "Christ is like leaven for the entire mass, and having made that which was damned one with himself, frees the whole from damnation".

Gregory of Nazianzu

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:08:30 AM »

At the end of Christ's ministry, it says that he "opened their understanding to the scriptures."

A lot of good replies, including *Jesus is the focus and necessary Piece - ongoing and close relationship with Him.  Just a little note as discussion continues - I personally believe the direct context (and many other references) show that the statement "the letter kills" is specifically talking about the Law - not the Holy Spirit's inspired Words to us - written, spoken, revealed, or otherwise - which are alive and sharp as a two-edged sword.  Revealing, cutting, exposing, changing what it touches, never returning void.  And I also don't believe anything spoken or "revealed" will ever, ever be against the written.  And if it's presented as such, then IMO it's either personal interpretation, or imagination - or worse.

 I corrected my mistake   James ,  I meant the letter of the law that kills   
 
  :Oops:  not the Spirit of God ,    my apologies to all    for this blunder
 not what I meant at all     
 
  I was  trying to     say and  see if I can even explain it  ,    I can see this a  the Lords judgments 
 
  Rev 13         the beastly natures  and carnal minded   whom reads the Bible    and   want to  harm   with it
 
    7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

 8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.


 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear.


10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes;

 if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed


. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
 
    Seems those  whom     become violent with     the Sword   and take captive or  even those whom kill  by it are than also given the same fate
 
   I do apologize  to everyone ,     I was looking as to whom you were  speaking to    and had no idea till I  read the whole tread      and  saw my error  :dunno:

Offline jabcat

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #18 on: Today at 12:13:47 AM »
not just you rosie, I believe it's a common error - and you just mis-spoke.  Many believe it and teach it that way.  I believe they are mistaken.  Blessings sister.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline rosered

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #19 on: Today at 12:18:43 AM »
not just you rosie, I believe it's a common error - and you just mis-spoke.  Many believe it and teach it that way.  I believe they are mistaken.  Blessings sister.

  Know better    bro , oh my , I know its the Spirit  of Holiness  that  is Life  and  gives Life
 Thank you ,   you could have told me I  sure don't mind correction  , I find it necessary  to grow in truth and  grace
     :HeartThrob:

Offline jabcat

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #20 on: Today at 01:08:51 AM »
 :HeartThrob:

I know your heart sis.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline ed

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #21 on: Today at 01:28:50 AM »
Best bunch of Bible thumpers I know.

 :dsunny:

Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #22 on: Today at 02:28:13 AM »
Hi folks, God bless you all - as I'm sure he is and does and will continue to do - as you continue to look for the truth that makes us free.

I have spent a couple of hours or so today and yesterday looking through a few of your forums and I am going to share something with you that I hope does not bring offense to you good people.

I've been a believer for a very long time and have had a revelation from the Lord (also for many years) of the cross and its implications for us all.

I cannot begin to describe the freedom and peace I have entered into and that continues to grow deeper as my fellowship with him becomes richer. All starting at the cross, where his true nature is, at last, unveiled and his astonishing final word expressed: of unlimited love and embrace of all. In fact, for me, there is little in this life that is absolute, except the cross and the unimaginable love it represents - in its light, everything else is freely negotiable.

In honesty, from an outsider's POV, what you have going on here weighed me down.  I'm not sure how long it is since some of you stepped aside and observed your forums from an objective angle. I sense your conversation started with the seeds of a beautiful truth and somehow got bogged down in a kind of rigorous, dogma-laden (seemingly), analysis.

Jesus came and died to end religion, slavery to sin, the law, so man could enter freedom and find genuine rest for his  soul. And let's face it, look around you, most people are just really tired :)

We can never find unity through doctrinal conformity. God's love is truly perfected in diversity. The love and embrace of each other's (opposing) differences..

I could share my experience with the scriptures, how they show man's judgement to be an illusion of his own making - one that God profoundly shattered and brought to an end - but I don't want to contribute to a debate in these pages  - may God open them to you as you walk along side him. This quiet word is just a hint and an opinion that I felt to offer. Do with it what you will. I feel that many of these details you are getting caught up in are red herrings, and might be keeping you from the living experience of truth. We can sometimes get trapped among the scaffolding instead of moving into the finished palace. The scriptures are a gift for our use, not a book of laws or obligations to be endlessly dissected, as if they were, in themselves, the goal. In this operation 'the letter kills.'  The bible is not the way - it is an arrow pointing to the one who is the way. It is a guide book to another country; the promised land - one that we are freely invited to live in.  There, we put the written text back in its place (using it, at will, to serve us  - not the other way around) and the living word, Jesus, becomes the one detail we forever (willingly) pour over.

I am confident you will keep on finding new freedom as you continue to seek him with the good, wonderful, searching hearts that you all have ..

I agree with a lot of what you said. However, it is important to stand with the truth whatever it may be. Honestly, I think the doctrinal discussions we have are great and we all treat each other with respect. That is why I joined this forum and am proud to be a part of it.

Offline onesimus

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Re: a quiet word
« Reply #23 on: Today at 07:49:38 AM »
Thank you all so very much for your comments and replies.

It's interesting to read the different takes that you all gleaned from my post...They are all very thoughtful. In a way, to me, it highlights an ongoing phenomenon ever since the holy spirit first fell.

Acts 2,
"When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? "

This is the special and wonderful ability of the spirit, to speak to us uniquely in our own language. This is how truth can differ from person to person, the way it is shown to us and the way we express it to others.

I'm sorry if my reply is not to each of your individual responses/posts. I'm a bit slow and 'old school' as far as the internet goes and can get a little flustered trying to hi-lite quotes etc..(if u don't buy that let's just say I'm lazy :) )

Suffice to say, I think all your replies are good, legitimate and worthy :)

I became open to a new language when I stopped judging myself. It allowed me to read the bible anew, too. For me, in short summary, the language of law and judgement is one man began speaking on his own initiative at the fall. In the scriptures, it is a language that is, if you will, outsourced by God to communicate with us because it had become our common language - not his. He is so loving and kind and wise that he would bend to us and speak this way, 'in the language of the hearers', and contrary to his own true nature and heart.


The words of Christ, from my angle, that speak of judgement and punishment are also in the spirit of this loving expression. Many, including myself, have let words such as these pick us up and carry us to his cross. There to find, as we passed through the veil of restoration, that the threats were never real, hell and death had been banished, and that only love remained.

To me, the operation of God's word is a multi-faceted and many colored, loving strategy - alive and active, and divinely designed to meet all where they are at.

Isiaiah 55: 8-11
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


How wonderful! There is no question that his word will accomplish what God desires. I love this so much because his word also says he desires for all men to be saved. Oh, thank you! What relief!

I don't think anyone is particularly bible-heavy. I just struck some very detailed analysis of the same word in several different discussions and it made my eyes droop :)

What I meant was, in terms of the bible, is that it is possible to study the scriptures diligently and not see (or grow in) Christ, of whom they speak John 5:39....As for doctrine; at certain times in history, when the body has been blessed with a revelation, the truth itself has become so foremost that it has obscured the one who is truth - undermining the very purpose for which it came: To lead us closer to him (and, as a byproduct, to one another). The church seems to have had a capacity to turn life-giving revelations into dogma, which has, in turn, often blocked our ears to hear future truths. Thus, when a new breath of the spirit arrives, we often end up separating from each other, with the old move stagnating in a house that dogma built...Thus runneth the lineage of the historical church - every division within it represents a truth that was once fresh and alive on the lips of the spirit.

As for my reference to 'the letter kills', although it does encompass the law, there is a much wider and deeper context in this bite-sized truth. It has been another hallmark revelation for me over the past several years. One that has radically shifted my understanding of the New Testament...

One that also (might) be for another time...because now my eyes are drooping from hearing myself :)

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