Please Define Death

[Molly]

also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.

I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?

The new covenant is a will.  It goes into effect the minute someone dies.

That is how a will works.

The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.

[WhiteWings]

So there is:
Comming 1a - past --> Birth
Comming 1b - past --> Returning after brought people from Noach time to heaven
Comming 1c - past --> Returning from the trip to heaven shortly after He met Mary.
Comming 2 - past --> Millenium

In Revelation we read about Jesus establsihing His Kingdom and several resurrection.
Jesus was the First fruit. First person of the first harvest. I think the resurrection took place during the First Fruit festival day.
Jesus was put in the grave. At some point during the 3 days he was resurrected. (first fruits)
Then He went to prison and led those people away to heaven. Were those people resurrected? If yes it means Revelation already started to unfold because the resurrections are part of Revelation.

Another thing I remember from our previous chats is that you hold the view that the thief on the cross was resurrected that same day or even never died. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He established His Kingdom.
That would mean Jesus estrablished His Kingdom within a few hours after His death (day was almost over)
That even more overlap with Revelation.

Yeah, it gets really complicated with Jesus coming and going.  Why do we put limits on Him by saying "Second Coming" as if we don't want Him around until the Big Event?  Read the book I Am With You Always; True Stories of Encounters with Jesus by G. Scott Sparrow.  We see in that book that Jesus is showing up in the here-and-now over and over.  Lots of comings - He's just going about His Father's business.

As far as the thief on the cross, what did Jesus say to him?  That he would be in Paradise with Him.  When?  That day?  It depends on where the comma goes, and the comma had not been invented in Luke's day.  I don't care to base theology on punctuation.  In fact, Jesus told Mary three days later that He had not yet ascended, so I doubt that He had yet been in Paradise with the thief.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/grave-paradise-and-all-these-things/msg130406/#msg130406
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/matt-1618-and-the-gates-of-hell-(hades)-shall-not-prevail-against-it/msg129707/#msg129707
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/christ's-death/msg107922/#msg107922
Etc. :-)

[Molly]

We have already been partially resurrected, spirit and soul, and only await the resurrection of the body.  The physical death of the body will in no way affect this.




What should we say then? Should we keep on sinning so that God's grace can increase? 2 Not at all! As far as sin is concerned, we are dead. So how can we keep on sinning? 3 All of us were baptized into Christ Jesus. Don't you know that we were baptized into his death? 4 By being baptized, we were buried with Christ into his death. Christ has been raised from the dead by the Father's glory. And like Christ we also can live a new life.
5 By being baptized, we have been joined with him in his death. We will certainly also be joined with him in his resurrection. 6 We know that what we used to be was nailed to the cross with him. That happened so our sinful bodies would lose their power. We are no longer slaves of sin. 7 Those who have died have been set free from sin.

8 We died with Christ. So we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ was raised from the dead and will never die again. Death doesn't control him anymore. 10 When he died, he died once and for all time as far as sin is concerned. Now that he lives, he lives as far as God is concerned.

11 In the same way, consider yourselves to be dead as far as sin is concerned. Now that you believe in Christ Jesus, consider yourselves to be alive as far as God is concerned.

12 So don't let sin rule your body, which is going to die. Don't obey its evil longings. 13 Don't give the parts of your body to serve sin. Don't let them be used to do evil. Instead, give yourselves to God. You have been brought from death to life. Give the parts of your body to him to do what is right.

14 Sin will not be your master. Law does not rule you. God's grace has set you free.

--Rom 6



If God has translated us from death to life, we will not die again.  After this body dies, to which we are already dead, we will await the resurrection of the body in heaven with Christ.



We know that the earthly tent we live in will be destroyed. But we have a building made by God. It is a house in heaven that lasts forever. Human hands did not build it.

2 During our time on earth we groan. We long to put on our house in heaven as if it were clothing. 3 Then we will not be naked.

4 While we live in this tent of ours, we groan under our heavy load. We don't want to be naked. We want to be dressed with our house in heaven. What must die will be swallowed up by life.

5 God has made us for that very purpose. He has given us the Holy Spirit as a down payment. The Spirit makes us sure of what is still to come.

6 So here is what we can always be certain about. As long as we are at home in our bodies, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by believing, not by seeing.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



2 Cor 5



So there you go.  Paul tells us that when we are absent from the body, that is, physical death,  we will be present with the Lord.

[Molly]

This is all possible because we are "joined with Christ"--in his death, and in his resurrection.


we are

dead with Christ

apothnesko sun Christos

so that we may also

live with him

suzao autos

[WhiteWings]

also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.

I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?

The new covenant is a will.  It goes into effect the minute someone dies.

That is how a will works.

The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.

So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?

[sheila]

exactly,when the word of God come in flesh..it became one with flesh.  if you are born of the spirit..you are born of celestial flesh...conceived of the will

  of the Father into the Kingdom of the son of His love.

[Molly]

also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.

I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?

The new covenant is a will.  It goes into effect the minute someone dies.

That is how a will works.

The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.

So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?

The New Testament is a will.   It goes into effect as soon as the testator dies.

If you want to know what is in the will, read it.   But, whether you read it or not, it still goes into effect when the testator dies.

[micah7:9]

"For we know, That if the tent of our earthy dwelling be taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, aionian, in the heavens. For indeed to this we are groaning, earnestly desiring to be invested with that habitation of our which is from [not 'in'] heaven: surely, having been invested, we shall not be found destitute.

For, indeed, those being in the tent are groaning, being oppressed; in which we desire not to be divested [naked], but invested [clothed], that the mortal may be absorbed by LIFE. Now He Who has produced this for this same thing is that God Who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit.

Therefore, being always confident, and knowing that being at home in the body [our body, in the flesh] we are from home [our real home, our immortal home], away from the Lord; for we are walking by Faith, not by sight ['Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed' John 20:29] But we are confident, and well-pleased rather to be separated from the body, and TO BE [not instantly, but at a future time] at home [with our new spiritual bodies like Christ's] with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:1-8, Emphatic Diaglott).

[sheila]

Yes..our earthly tent is our terrestial body from terrestial seed/weak with seed of serpent entering into and bringing death to it. The celestial seed also raises up

  it's own body in the likeness of the glorified Son of God...incorruptible deathless

[Molly]

[not instantly, but at a future time]

That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script.  Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script.  He did not.

What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth?  And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?

Paul is as clear as a bell about this:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  2 Cor 5


I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."

[WhiteWings]

also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.

I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?

The new covenant is a will.  It goes into effect the minute someone dies.

That is how a will works.

The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.

So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?

The New Testament is a will.   It goes into effect as soon as the testator dies.

If you want to know what is in the will, read it.   But, whether you read it or not, it still goes into effect when the testator dies.

For once try to read and more importantly understand what I write/ask.
I know you feel cornered (rightfully), but twisting my questions isn't gonna fool me.

When I write a will I do so when I'm alive. I don't continue after I died.

[WhiteWings]

[not instantly, but at a future time]

That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script.  Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script.  He did not.

What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth?  And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?

Paul is as clear as a bell about this:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  2 Cor 5


I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."

Neither do I see Paul writing "present with the Lord instantly after death

[Molly]

[not instantly, but at a future time]

That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script.  Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script.  He did not.

What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth?  And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?

Paul is as clear as a bell about this:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  2 Cor 5


I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."

Neither do I see Paul writing "present with the Lord instantly after death

He says to live is Christ, to die is gain--it only gets better.



19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
 
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
 
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
 
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
 
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
 
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Phil1

[Molly]

also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.

I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?

The new covenant is a will.  It goes into effect the minute someone dies.

That is how a will works.

The minute Jesus died, the will went into effect.

So the new convenant ends when Jesus spoke His last word on the cross?
So only part of the NT is the New Convenant?

The New Testament is a will.   It goes into effect as soon as the testator dies.

If you want to know what is in the will, read it.   But, whether you read it or not, it still goes into effect when the testator dies.

For once try to read and more importantly understand what I write/ask.
I know you feel cornered (rightfully), but twisting my questions isn't gonna fool me.

When I write a will I do so when I'm alive. I don't continue after I died.

I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions."  I honestly do not understand what you are saying.   Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead?  Give me an example of that.   Jesus is the executor of the will.  The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says.  Then he distributes the assets according to the will.

[ded2daworld]

And as far as writing a will goes,
Jesus did not personally write any of the old or new testaments
Besides, 3 days after he died he was alive again.
Yet, he was also "alive" while dead based on his preaching to
the peeps that had died before or during the flood in the first aeon or age.

[Molly]

TESTAMENT
A person's will, esp. the part relating to personal property.




HEIR

A person legally entitled to the property or rank of another on that person's death.

one who acquires property upon the death of another, based on the rules of descent and distribution, namely, being the child, descendant or other closest relative of the dear departed. It also has come to mean anyone who "takes" (receives something) by the terms of the will. An heir cannot be determined until the moment of death of the person leaving the property, since a supposed beneficiary (heir apparent) might die first.



Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.


Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.  Rom 8:17

Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.


1 Peter 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,






Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

--Gal 4



Believe it, Hotshot!

[Molly]

Paul was so stunned when he learned who Jesus was and the terms of the will, that he was blinded for three days and did not eat or drink.  And, he would have stayed that way had God not sent Ananias to heal him.




15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
--Acts 9

[WhiteWings]

I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions."  I honestly do not understand what you are saying.   Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead?  Give me an example of that.   Jesus is the executor of the will.  The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says.  Then he distributes the assets according to the will.

Let's take Mark as an example. (Mark 15:37) And having given out a great voice, Jesus expired.
What about Mark 15:38 - 16:20?
Still a last will of someone?
Of course I can ask the same about Luke, Romans, etc

[WhiteWings]

And as far as writing a will goes,
Jesus did not personally write any of the old or new testaments

True. When I wrote "write" it was perhaps better to say "taught/said" something that was written down at a later time.

Besides, 3 days after he died he was alive again.
Yet, he was also "alive" while dead based on his preaching to
the peeps that had died before or during the flood in the first aeon or age.

That's the whole discussion ded. I see no proof for that assumption.

[Molly]

I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions."  I honestly do not understand what you are saying.   Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead?  Give me an example of that.   Jesus is the executor of the will.  The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says.  Then he distributes the assets according to the will.

Let's take Mark as an example. (Mark 15:37) And having given out a great voice, Jesus expired.
What about Mark 15:38 - 16:20?
Still a last will of someone?
Of course I can ask the same about Luke, Romans, etc

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I have already answered you in the above posts.  Obviously the will was written [if not written down] before Jesus died.  Or do you think Paul made that all up?  Paul calls it a 'mystery'--that is, for eyes only, and thus, I would presume not for everyone to know.   I can't continue a discussion that I don't understand.

[WhiteWings]

[not instantly, but at a future time]

That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script.  Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script.  He did not.

What would be the point of having aionian immortal clothing in heaven, if we are going to be dead until we have our resurrected bodies on earth?  And, why would Paul say that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord if he really meant is to 'some day in the future' be present with the Lord?

Paul is as clear as a bell about this:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  2 Cor 5


I don't see that saying, "to be absent from the body and dead..."

Neither do I see Paul writing "present with the Lord instantly after death

He says to live is Christ, to die is gain--it only gets better.

And again you try to avoid my question.
I didn't say it gets better, worse or equally bad/good. I didn't make such a statement.
My only question is where exactly in the following verse the answer to the thread topic is given? Where does it say people that are dead are really dead, or do a soul sleep, or immediately start enjoying heaven?

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  2 Cor 5

Micah wrote:

[not instantly, but at a future time]

You answered his statement with:

That might be your interpretation but I do not see that in the script.  Paul was perfectly capable of putting those words in the script.  He did not.

I agree with you that Paul did not add the words "but not instantly" in that verse. And yes, I fully believe he had the ability to do so if needed.
But my answer to you is: Neither did Paul add the word instantly to that verse.

Simple example.
- I'm going to buy Bible X because it's a quality translation. Am I going to buy it right now? Am I saving money for it and buy it in 5 months?

I only made 2 statements. I stated I'm going to buy Bible X. I also stated it's a quality translation. But I didn't state when exactly I'll buy it.

So my problem with both your and Micah's statement is that thought/words/interpretations are added which are not in the verse. Yes, that leaves many open ends. Yes it would be very handy if Paul had added (but not) instantly. But he didn't and that's why we (yes that includes me too) are not allowed to add our own time delimiters.
What of course is totally ok is pointing to another verse that does say (not) instantly.

As I wrote many open ends. It's human to try to complete the story by completing the open ends. But imo that's exactly how doctrines are made.
Paul didn't write ABC so obviously he means XYZ.
Maybe Paul meant ABC. Perhaps OPQ. Or perhaps he didn't have a clue because the HS didn't inspire him to know. Perhaps he fully knew and wrote a dozen verses on the timing elsewhere.

[WhiteWings]

I am not "feeling cornered" or "twisting your questions."  I honestly do not understand what you are saying.   Who is continuing to write a will after they are dead?  Give me an example of that.   Jesus is the executor of the will.  The executor comes to the beneficiaries after the death of the testator and tells them what the will says.  Then he distributes the assets according to the will.

Let's take Mark as an example. (Mark 15:37) And having given out a great voice, Jesus expired.
What about Mark 15:38 - 16:20?
Still a last will of someone?
Of course I can ask the same about Luke, Romans, etc

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I have already answered you in the above posts.  Obviously the will was written [if not written down] before Jesus died.  Or do you think Paul made that all up?  Paul calls it a 'mystery'--that is, for eyes only, and thus, I would presume not for everyone to know.   I can't continue a discussion that I don't understand.

Ok even easier. Is the Book of Revelation the last will of Jesus?

[Molly]

As I wrote many open ends. It's human to try to complete the story by completing the open ends. But imo that's exactly how doctrines are made.
Paul didn't write ABC so obviously he means XYZ.
Maybe Paul meant ABC. Perhaps OPQ. Or perhaps he didn't have a clue because the HS didn't inspire him to know. Perhaps he fully knew and wrote a dozen verses on the timing elsewhere.

or Maybe Paul meant what he said.


23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain


8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[jabcat]

This is a good verse from Philippians 1 also;  "If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

[WhiteWings]

A lot of saintly OT people desired to be with God but it seems to me they had to wait until the resurrections in Revelation.