Author Topic: Please Define Death  (Read 11973 times)

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Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.

We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.

At least, that's what I thought.
Everything I posted was about Jesus. (and Jonah)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2012, 11:48:27 AM »
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance.  But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Another question/remark.
Those captives are about the people in Noach's time.
Why did Jesus only liberate them?
Sure there must have been some after the flood that need to be released?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #177 on: September 14, 2012, 11:48:51 AM »
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.

We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.

At least, that's what I thought.
Everything I posted was about Jesus. (and Jonah)
Well, Jesus himself says that he and Jonah only have 3 days and 3 nights in common.

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2012, 11:52:07 AM »
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance.  But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Another question/remark.
Those captives are about the people in Noach's time.
Why did Jesus only liberate them?
Sure there must have been some after the flood that need to be released?

After the flood comes the Law.   A different case.  Hebrews says they are waiting for us to receive the promise.   I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.   

Don't worry!  Jesus has it all covered!  [can I go to sleep now? lol]  I'm too tired to make up theology on the spot.

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #179 on: September 14, 2012, 11:52:52 AM »
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance.  But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured.
When do you expect His 4th coming?
1st coming: Jesus born on earth.
2nd coming: Jesus returns from leading the captives away (during the 3 days).
3rd coming: Jesus performed priestly duties in heaven after He met Mary and before He met Thomas.
4th coming: Milenium

Millenium is the second coming.

The two middle ones are all part of the death and resurrection process.   Or do you really think that process would be simple--go to sleep wake up glorified body.
I don't know how simple the process is.
But did you understand the intend of my short list?
How can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?
Or don't certain steps don't count because they are intermediate stages?
To me it seems there is nothing intermediate about the leading captives to heaven. Imo those people reached their final goal. Not a intermediate step.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #180 on: September 14, 2012, 11:57:42 AM »
No one is using Jonah to prove anything about Jesus.

We are using Jonah to prove things about ourselves.

At least, that's what I thought.
Everything I posted was about Jesus. (and Jonah)
Well, Jesus himself says that he and Jonah only have 3 days and 3 nights in common.
I thought I was clear about that Molly. Seems not to be the case. So I state: You are 100% totally correct about that Molly.

But I think our disagreement lays in the extend of Jesus quote.
Did Jesus only meant the time period? (3 days and 3 nights)
Or also the events that took place within that mentioned period of time?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #181 on: September 14, 2012, 12:02:41 PM »
Quote
How can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?

Because I see it as Jesus going through the same process as we go through, being saved in spirit first, then soul, then body.  Or the 3 sections of the Temple.  So everyone in the outer court is saved in spirit because that part is open to everyone.  After that it gets more complicated as you move into the Temple.

So Jesus is first quickened in spirit.  But, since he is a quickening spirit, he quickens others.
Ascends to heaven with those.  Then soul is the body that Mary sees.  This is not yet a glorified body, technically speaking.  He ascends a second time and presents his soul to God in the holy of holies. Now the transfer to the Melchizedek priesthood.  So glorification of the body is the last,  when he ascends a final time to heaven and sits on the right hand of God.  Steven sees him there.

That's the best I can do to explain how I see it.

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #182 on: September 14, 2012, 12:04:55 PM »
I think the differences between Jesus and Jonah are obvious.

Jonah didn't end up with a resurrected and glorified body, for instance.  But, he did come back to life [dry ground].
But those points are the ones of least importance in this discussion.
Everyone agrees Jesus wents in and out of that tomb.
But what did He do (not) when He was in that tomb?

He went into the heart of the earth and preached to spirits in prison and ascended on high and led captivity captive leading a trail of spirits who were satan's prisoners of war in death and hades and whom he had now recaptured and was liberating.
Another question/remark.
Those captives are about the people in Noach's time.
Why did Jesus only liberate them?
Sure there must have been some after the flood that need to be released?

After the flood comes the Law.   A different case.  Hebrews says they are waiting for us to receive the promise.   I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
That's also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

Quote
Don't worry!  Jesus has it all covered!  [can I go to sleep now? lol]
Ok, join your soul :gimmefive:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #183 on: September 14, 2012, 12:12:37 PM »
Quote
also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.  God writes the new covenant in the Old Testament.

Consider it a will.  When I die, my Son will inherit such and such and Isreal [two houses] will be his co-inheritors.

Then he dies on the cross, and everyone inherits!

Jesus is the executor of the will and passes out the inheritance to the beneficiaries at the time appointed in the will.

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #184 on: September 14, 2012, 12:48:18 PM »

http://www.scionofzion.com/dtljcgth.htm
Summary
So the prisoners that Christ was preaching to were all the unbelievers at the time of Noah, through Him indwelling Noah with the Holy Spirit. They were not in any special place but were all walking around the earth.

http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection
That would suggest the following sequence: death, resurrection, ascension, proclamation to the spirits in prison.

http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/7Humans/DeathUnderstanding1Peter3_18.aspx
http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/lightning/1a.htm
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 01:24:10 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #185 on: September 14, 2012, 12:52:01 PM »
Quote
also problematic.
The convenant wasn't ready when Jesus died. For example Revelation was inspired decades later. Or do you just view the first 4 NT books as the Convenant? 

I don't know what you mean by that.
Quote from: Molly
I think that probably involves the New Covenant being given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
The NT was completed when Revelation was inspired/written.
The exact date of Revelation can be argued about but I think it's safe to assume it wasn't written while Jesus was in the tomb.
So how could the NT be presented to the spirits in prison when it was about half complete?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #186 on: September 14, 2012, 04:29:22 PM »
Quote
How can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?
Because I see it as Jesus going through the same process as we go through, being saved in spirit first, then soul, then body.  Or the 3 sections of the Temple.  So everyone in the outer court is saved in spirit because that part is open to everyone.  After that it gets more complicated as you move into the Temple.

So Jesus is first quickened in spirit.  But, since he is a quickening spirit, he quickens others.
Ascends to heaven with those.  Then soul is the body that Mary sees.  This is not yet a glorified body, technically speaking.  He ascends a second time and presents his soul to God in the holy of holies. Now the transfer to the Melchizedek priesthood.  So glorification of the body is the last,  when he ascends a final time to heaven and sits on the right hand of God.  Steven sees him there.

That's the best I can do to explain how I see it.
So there is:
Comming 1a - past --> Birth
Comming 1b - past --> Returning after brought people from Noach time to heaven
Comming 1c - past --> Returning from the trip to heaven shortly after He met Mary.
Comming 2 - past --> Millenium

In Revelation we read about Jesus establsihing His Kingdom and several resurrection.
Jesus was the First fruit. First person of the first harvest. I think the resurrection took place during the First Fruit festival day.
Jesus was put in the grave. At some point during the 3 days he was resurrected. (first fruits)
Then He went to prison and led those people away to heaven. Were those people resurrected? If yes it means Revelation already started to unfold because the resurrections are part of Revelation.

Another thing I remember from our previous chats is that you hold the view that the thief on the cross was resurrected that same day or even never died. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He established His Kingdom.
That would mean Jesus estrablished His Kingdom within a few hours after His death (day was almost over)
That even more overlap with Revelation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #187 on: September 14, 2012, 04:50:51 PM »
Quote
How can you call the second coming second if your views prove it's fourth?

Because I see it as Jesus going through the same process as we go through, being saved in spirit first, then soul, then body.  Or the 3 sections of the Temple.  So everyone in the outer court is saved in spirit because that part is open to everyone.  After that it gets more complicated as you move into the Temple.

So Jesus is first quickened in spirit.  But, since he is a quickening spirit, he quickens others.
Ascends to heaven with those.  Then soul is the body that Mary sees.  This is not yet a glorified body, technically speaking.  He ascends a second time and presents his soul to God in the holy of holies. Now the transfer to the Melchizedek priesthood.  So glorification of the body is the last,  when he ascends a final time to heaven and sits on the right hand of God.  Steven sees him there.

That's the best I can do to explain how I see it.


2Co_1:12  For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2Co_11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #188 on: September 14, 2012, 05:05:14 PM »

So there is:
Comming 1a - past --> Birth
Comming 1b - past --> Returning after brought people from Noach time to heaven
Comming 1c - past --> Returning from the trip to heaven shortly after He met Mary.
Comming 2 - past --> Millenium

In Revelation we read about Jesus establsihing His Kingdom and several resurrection.
Jesus was the First fruit. First person of the first harvest. I think the resurrection took place during the First Fruit festival day.
Jesus was put in the grave. At some point during the 3 days he was resurrected. (first fruits)
Then He went to prison and led those people away to heaven. Were those people resurrected? If yes it means Revelation already started to unfold because the resurrections are part of Revelation.

Another thing I remember from our previous chats is that you hold the view that the thief on the cross was resurrected that same day or even never died. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He established His Kingdom.
That would mean Jesus estrablished His Kingdom within a few hours after His death (day was almost over)
That even more overlap with Revelation.

Yeah, it gets really complicated with Jesus coming and going.  Why do we put limits on Him by saying "Second Coming" as if we don't want Him around until the Big Event?  Read the book I Am With You Always; True Stories of Encounters with Jesus by G. Scott Sparrow.  We see in that book that Jesus is showing up in the here-and-now over and over.  Lots of comings - He's just going about His Father's business.

As far as the thief on the cross, what did Jesus say to him?  That he would be in Paradise with Him.  When?  That day?  It depends on where the comma goes, and the comma had not been invented in Luke's day.  I don't care to base theology on punctuation.  In fact, Jesus told Mary three days later that He had not yet ascended, so I doubt that He had yet been in Paradise with the thief.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #189 on: September 14, 2012, 05:06:11 PM »
I agree with the Jesus in the tomb, and I've never ever thought otherwise...  so I was writing this when I went to post and saw yours Tony, so it flows together.  I'd written;

yes, even though Jonah's body was buried, he was still able to commune with God in his spirit.

don't get me wrong..i DON"T believe the spirit is buried in the ground upon death, so that there would be consciousness as Tony said, "buried alive"...i believe it's clear the spirit returns to God, so it ain't in the ground..thankfully!!!!  (i'm a bit claustrophobic :)  I need to FLY!!!

Okay, I'm speaking here of a human being who died. To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead. From what I know there is a resurrection from the DEAD. How God handles that breath/spirit, is up to Him while it's there, but the complete assurance He is the RESURRECTION of the dead.
 Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
 
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #190 on: September 14, 2012, 05:17:24 PM »
To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead.

The body goes back to dust, yes, dead.  We understand that.

The breath/spirit returns to the One who gave it, alive, never dead.  That is ineffable.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #191 on: September 14, 2012, 05:20:02 PM »
"Yeah, it gets really complicated with Jesus coming and going.  Why do we put limits on Him by saying "Second Coming" as if we don't want Him around until the Big Event?" WW.

There is no "second coming" in my Bible. So for me it is not complicated.
Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Coming  G3952  parousia  a being near, G3918 pareimi to be near, that is, at hand;






 
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2012, 05:21:37 PM »
To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead.

The body goes back to dust, yes, dead.  We understand that.

The breath/spirit returns to the One who gave it, alive, never dead.  That is ineffable.

Ok, then Jesus is not the resurrection of the dead, got it.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #193 on: September 14, 2012, 05:28:20 PM »
that is why it is called the breath of life...let every breathing thing praise God.  God is a spirit..and when He sends forthout of His mouth a breath of life

 it is spirit sent forth..and does not return to Him void/empty/dead

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #194 on: September 14, 2012, 05:30:35 PM »
Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground.  In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on. 

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit".  Luke 23:46
Who what was the shell?

Jonah: Jonah's body, the fish?
Seed: I just point to your article.
Jesus: Jesus' body, the tomb? Remember Luke 23:46. Does that sound like an empty shell was buried?


the 2 scriptures were used to attempt to prove soul/spirit sleep.

i'm saying in both instances, there was a burial of something but life inside continued.  (seed has outer shell that contains life inside, Jonah's body as an outer shell contained life inside).

either that's a perfect analogy and it means the whole person doesn't die or sleep so debunks soul sleep rather than proves it, or, the analogy is not a complete 1:1 comparison, i.e., there's an analogy to be made and lessons to be learned, but a completely detailed doctrine of soul sleep/not soul sleep cannot be made from it

Seeing that Mat 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
is a parable, are there any similar experiences that happened to Jonas in the big fish as to Jesus in the "heart of the earth?"
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #195 on: September 14, 2012, 05:32:36 PM »
To keep it as simple as I can...when we die, the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, that breath/spirit is dead.

The body goes back to dust, yes, dead.  We understand that.

The breath/spirit returns to the One who gave it, alive, never dead.  That is ineffable.

Ok, then Jesus is not the resurrection of the dead, got it.

I didn't say that, only that the breath/spirit never dies, as it is some kind of life force.  Jesus will accomplish the resurrection by means of this same breath/spirit/life force.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline sheila

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #196 on: September 14, 2012, 05:35:33 PM »
a spirit can be dead in unbeleif...a new spirit/Christ/beleif given is resurrection to a life state...the hour is coming when all in the tombs will hear His voice and come out

   so...they will hear what they had not heard[the voice of their Lord] and when they hear they will put faith in Him..and obey..and come forth from their tomb.

   you could say God did cpr on fallen Adam when He sent forth the Christ to breatheternal life into the dead.  cardio-heart pulmonary/spirit

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #197 on: September 14, 2012, 05:36:34 PM »
that is why it is called the breath of life...let every breathing thing praise God.  God is a spirit..and when He sends forthout of His mouth a breath of life

 it is spirit sent forth..and does not return to Him void/empty/dead

"that is why it is called the breath of life...let every breathing thing praise God." Amen and Glory!
"God is a spirit..." No, God IS spirit.
"it is spirit sent forth..and does not return to Him void/empty/dead"   Don't quite get that, but His word will not return void. But, does that mean He is not the resurrector of the dead? How does God resurrect the dead if it ain't dead?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #198 on: September 14, 2012, 05:39:51 PM »
what is the modern ratio for cpr....15 compressions to circulate the blood through the heart and mind and body to two Breaths?

   breath of God into Adam..Christ breathed on them...that's two...at the mouth of two or three wittness' let every matter be settled.

Offline sheila

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #199 on: September 14, 2012, 06:22:19 PM »
these words are spirit and life...man does not live by bread alone..but by every word of God from the mouth of God.