Author Topic: Please Define Death  (Read 17596 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »
Well friend should you find anything about this heretic "soul sleep" mentioned in the Bible, please show me the verse. As for me soul sleep is nothing more than speculation, assumption, and theological interpretation.
Basicly most things are speculation. Whatever your and my view is, it's based on understanding of verses.

Sure there are verses like "dead know nothing". Very clear.
But I think it's not correct to stop there. A honest seeker, I think you are, should ALSO consider that seed example.
I can tell you that for me personally it's challanging. Maybe I stick to my old view. Maybe today. Maybe it takes a year. But in the meanwhile I'm seriously considering the seed parable.
Just my view but a true seeker must consider ALL verses. Even if it causes sleepless nights.
But then, that's just my view....
 :friendstu:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2012, 09:35:06 PM »
For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.
Soul seed sleep.

[/quote]

or the inside is awake, alive, waiting...which is what I suggested awhile back..the spirit is alive and waiting to return to its resurrected/renewed/glorified body - not dead or sleeping..

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2012, 09:40:19 PM »
 :eek:

Burried alive .... :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2012, 09:45:53 PM »
ha!  I think the seed parable is important.  To me it shows there's life inside when the outside is dead.  I don't personally think it can stand alone as the "only proof" for or against soul sleep/soul death.  I believe it's one thing to add into the mix of many others, to get a full picture.  Again though, the thing it does show to me is, the outside dies but the whole thing is not dead or asleep.  So the question, where is it and what's it doing?  To me, there must be other scriptures to consider to know that answer.  And one thing we have is, "the spirit returns to God". 

Offline CHB

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2012, 09:48:10 PM »
If we do we should be fair and also note Jonah didn't leave the fish for 3 days. Similary that would mean Jesus didn't leave the tomb for 3 days to preach to spirits in prison as some claim.

I think this is what the whole thing is saying. Really you can't compare Jonah with Jesus as far as death is concerned because Jesus died for sin and the world, Jonah didn't. I think it is all about the 3 days.

I was thinking about how we didn't know anything before God breathed our spirit into us, so how could we know anything after it returns to God?

Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit". I don't think Jesus knew anything until God returned his spirit to him at the time of his resurrection.

I think of it kind of like electricity. When things are unplugged they no longer work, they are dead.

CHB   

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #130 on: September 13, 2012, 09:49:56 PM »
:eek:

Burried alive .... :sigh:
ha!  I think the seed parable is important.  To me it shows there's life inside when the outside is dead.  I don't personally think it can stand alone as the "only proof" for or against soul sleep/soul death.  I believe it's one thing to add into the mix of many others, to get a full picture.  Again though, the thing it does show to me is, the outside dies but the whole thing is not dead or asleep.  So the question, where is it and what's it doing?  To me, there must be other scriptures to consider to know that answer.  And one thing we have is, "the spirit returns to God". 

so what does God do with it?  Keep it and "numb" it?  Kill it and later resurrect it?  Have it commune/interact with Him?  Dispatch it to different places to accomplish different purposes as suits His purposes?  Always (or when "not in use") store it in a holding place (paradise, the abode of the dead, etc.)?

I remember Michelle Amirault saying to me once after Scott died, that she hoped/trusted he is being used to further the kingdom.  It might be interesting to get her views on this topic.  On the other hand, she may not want to get knee-deep in our constant meanderings..  :laugh:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #131 on: September 14, 2012, 01:00:03 AM »
If we do we should be fair and also note Jonah didn't leave the fish for 3 days. Similary that would mean Jesus didn't leave the tomb for 3 days to preach to spirits in prison as some claim.

I think this is what the whole thing is saying. Really you can't compare Jonah with Jesus as far as death is concerned because Jesus died for sin and the world, Jonah didn't. I think it is all about the 3 days.

I was thinking about how we didn't know anything before God breathed our spirit into us, so how could we know anything after it returns to God?

Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit". I don't think Jesus knew anything until God returned his spirit to him at the time of his resurrection.

I think of it kind of like electricity. When things are unplugged they no longer work, they are dead.

CHB

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #132 on: September 14, 2012, 01:08:15 AM »
ha!  I think the seed parable is important.  To me it shows there's life inside when the outside is dead.  I don't personally think it can stand alone as the "only proof" for or against soul sleep/soul death.  I believe it's one thing to add into the mix of many others, to get a full picture.  Again though, the thing it does show to me is, the outside dies but the whole thing is not dead or asleep.  So the question, where is it and what's it doing?  To me, there must be other scriptures to consider to know that answer.  And one thing we have is, "the spirit returns to God".



1Co 2:10  but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,

I just know, because my faith keeps me in the comfort that when I die, and He gets my breath/spirit back, in His time He will do with it what He will, I, at that time, know not anything. And that is probably a good thing. At rest awaiting His judgment.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #133 on: September 14, 2012, 01:15:57 AM »
when I die, and He gets my breath/spirit back, in His time He will do with it what He will

:)

I believe that's true, He will have it and do with it what He will.  I agree with that.   :thumbsup:

Seems remaining questions are, "what is that" and "when"?

In our searching, so far we have 2 scriptural analogies used for conscious death - Jonah, and the seed that falls into the ground.  In both instances, the shell is buried but the inside [spirit] lives on. 

"Into your hands I commit [entrust] my spirit".  Luke 23:46

The question is still on the table - "what was His spirit doing" (with scriptural evidence).  Molly gave indication scripturally that He was proclaiming victory and releasing prisoners.   Is there something more about those scriptures in I Peter that needs to be known?  I'll look at them (I think it's a pretty big study though, with various opinions.  However, I think much of the difference of opinion is about whether He suffered in "hell", or rather proclaimed and delivered there   :2c:).

Blessings.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 01:28:51 AM by jabcat »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #134 on: September 14, 2012, 01:44:54 AM »
On Eph. 4:8
This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18.  After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."

There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8.  Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse:  "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind."  So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2012, 01:49:50 AM »
thanks, I'll take that into account as I look at it some more.


Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2012, 03:09:46 AM »
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

--Eph 4


HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE

He's leading something here out of the depths of the earth.   What's he leading?


"he led captivity captive"

G162
αἰχμαλωτεύω
aichmalōteuō
aheekh-mal-o-tew'-o
From G164; to capture (like G163): -to lead captive.


G161
αἰχμαλωσία
aichmalōsia
aheekh-mal-o-see'-ah
From G164; captivity: - captivity.



how do you lead 'captivity'?   If you look at the root word, G164, you will see that 'captivity' is 'prisoners of war.'    He has taken captive the prisoners of war of the enemy when he descended into the lower parts of the earth after death, and is leading them out of bondage when he ascends.


G164
aichmalōtos
properly a prisoner of war, that is, (generally) a captive


There's that victory parade.  He is ascending into heaven with the enemy's prisoners' of war following behind him.  He has taken them captive to himself! :dsunny:


22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:  Psa 68



I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,  Eph 4


« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 03:16:48 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2012, 04:32:07 AM »
A former member apparently had viewed the thread and graciously emailed me to point out Isaiah 61:1 in terms of Jesus releasing those in bondage, individuals.  I had overlooked this.  Thanks and blessings.  So Molly, I'm guessing you'd say what you're presenting is [part of] Jesus fulfilling this;

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;"

Also Luke 4:18;  "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,"

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #138 on: September 14, 2012, 05:18:53 AM »
Jab, I'm describing a subset of that because I am just talking about the dead, and that covers the living and the dead IMO.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #139 on: September 14, 2012, 05:23:09 AM »
Good point, I agree. 

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #140 on: September 14, 2012, 06:28:40 AM »
Eph. 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led "captivity captive," and gave gifts unto men.
Just what did God hold captive? Maybe the adversary? Jesus ascended, he is going, up on high..and from there LED "captivity" (something caught) and remained captive.
What or whoever was "in" captivity was now, "again captive." I just don't see anything freed here such as "prisoners of war." Dead or alive.
Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air....... Now here is something that could be a captive and remain in captivity, and I know it says "air", but "air" is certainly can be "high."

"HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE   He's leading something here out of the depths of the earth.   What's he leading?" Molly

As I read it, he ascended up and led captivity captive, I don't read any leading out of the depths.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He "first" descended, but no leading of captivity or captives, or am I reading this wrong?

"Jab, I'm describing a subset of that because I am just talking about the dead, and that covers the living and the dead IMO." Molly

I don't see those dead of the OT as being captives, was God holding them captive? Remember, as I understand it they are dust and there breath/spirit is with the one who gave it. Am I to understand they were captives in captivity to remain captives?

CAPTIVITY  G161 aichmalōsia  captivity. G164 aichmalōtos  properly a prisoner of war, that is, (generally) a captive: - captive.
G259 halōsis  capture: - be taken.
G142  airō A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away;

HIGH G5311  elevation, that is, (abstractly) altitude, (specifically) the sky, or (figuratively) dignity: - be exalted, height, (on) high.

Now here is a captive in captivity.....Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #141 on: September 14, 2012, 06:31:00 AM »
:)  without digging right now (I'm following this middle east travesty) doesn't the relevant scrip say "those who were disobedient in the days of Noah"?

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #142 on: September 14, 2012, 06:49:25 AM »
Quote from: Micah
Now here is a captive in captivity.....Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

You think he is leading satan captive as he ascends into heaven?
Does 'captivity' mean satan?


When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

Captivity means a group of prisoners of war.   This is what Paul gets for being such a poetic writer.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:55:25 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #143 on: September 14, 2012, 07:09:20 AM »
Quote from: Micah
Now here is a captive in captivity.....Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

You think he is leading satan captive as he ascends into heaven?
Does 'captivity' mean satan?


When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

Captivity means a group of prisoners of war.   This is what Paul gets for being such a poetic writer.

"prisoners of war" is your pick from Strong's
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #144 on: September 14, 2012, 07:25:34 AM »
Young's Literal: For this reason Scripture says: "He re-ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and gave gifts to men."

NLT: That is why the Scriptures say, "When he ascended to the heights, he led a crowd of captives and gave gifts to his people." (NLT - Tyndale House)

Wuest: Wherefore He says, Having ascended on high, He led away captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men. (Eerdmans

Commentary on Psalm 68
In this Psalm David is extolling the Name of Jehovah because of the great victory He had given him. David's victory reminds him of the prior glorious "victorious" acts of God, including the Red Sea crossing, destruction of Pharaoh's hosts, the subsequent wilderness journey and entrance into the Promised Land of Canaan. In each of these scenarios God's people were in dire straits and yet God, as it were, had come down and delivered them and then ascended back to heaven! And herein we see the wisdom of God's inspiration of David who spoke primarily of a local event, which the Spirit intended to have a double meaning, a greater prophetic message, foretelling what would happen to the Messiah over a millennium later! From comparison of the Old and the New Testament passages, it is also clear that Paul is teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah. As an aside, the exact fulfillment of such detailed prophecies of course provides one of the great proofs of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures.)


John MacArthur comments on Paul's use of Psalm 68 noting that this psalm...

is a victory hymn composed by David to celebrate God's conquest of the Jebusite city and the triumphant ascent of God (represented by the Ark of the Covenant) up Mount Zion (cf. 2 As. 6-7; 1Chr 13). After a king won such a victory he would bring home the spoils and enemy prisoners to parade before his people. An Israelite king would take his retinue through the holy city of Jerusalem and up Mount Zion.

Another feature of the victory parade, however, would be the display of the king's own soldiers who had been freed after being held prisoner by the enemy. These were often referred to as recaptured captives—prisoners who had been taken prisoner again, so to speak, by their own king and given freedom. (MacArthur, J: Ephesians. Chicago: Moody Press)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 07:31:18 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #145 on: September 14, 2012, 07:35:08 AM »
 So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.

That should be a hint as to validity.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2012, 07:43:53 AM »
The church got it right, Micah.  Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

We do go to heaven when we die.




Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?

Now, when what is decaying is clothed with what cannot decay, and what is dying is clothed with what cannot die, then the written word will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up by victory!" 1 cor 15:54

2 Corinthians 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.


O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?
1 Cor 15:55


THANKS BE TO GOD WHO GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

1 Cor 15:57
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 07:53:00 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #147 on: September 14, 2012, 08:59:28 AM »
 :sigh: You really can't move on can you Molly, you are stuck, that is a loss. You fill the prophecy subject line with current events on how you see whats going to happen.  You are a student of the Bible, but still as so many who love the Lord will not let lose of denominational and religious teachings. Molly, the Bible breaths, the Bible is Spirit, it does not change it opens up to it says when believers yield to the speaking of the Holy Spirit, that cloud by day, the pillar of fire. He is bringing those who will hear upward. Molly, people die, dead. Yes, we are born again and alive, still death is the step to life. Even if it is for a split millia second, death is what the Lord God said Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
And He cannot lie Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
I believe Him.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #148 on: September 14, 2012, 09:22:27 AM »
Just so you know Micah, I haven't been to church since I left high school.

I loved church, and the music especially which I always participated in, but I didn't learn much [as in knowledge] while I was there.  I did learn a lot of scripture and a lot of Old Testament--direct readings from the Bible.

So, whatever you think I can't 'move on' from, it's not church.

You can't blame me on church.

But, thanks be to God who has given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe God, too.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 09:29:09 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #149 on: September 14, 2012, 09:46:38 AM »
There's no need to make this personal.  Let's stick to the issues and talk about what we understand in scriptures.  We all see through a glass darkly.  We all have bits we've been given to understand.  If any one of us tires of a particular topic or what's going on in it, we have the option of moving on to another thread or whatever else suits us.  Thanks.

Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another.. Rm. 12:10