Please Define Death

[WhiteWings]

Jesus tells Mary not to touch him [in his resurrected body] because he has not yet ascended to his Father [in his new body].   First meaning for that word is 'touch' but it could mean 'attach oneself to.'

I can fully picture what happened. Mary sees Him and almost hugs Him to death. I just can't imagine if she watched Him die 3 days ago she just stands there and talk. Seems normal human behavior for me. Maybe not so in a theocracy like Jesus lived in, but still the above is considiration for me.

I've always thought that he did ascend after he sent her away because he has to present himself as the high priest in heaven.

Do you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....

There are other words that mean cling

Kallao--to join, cleave to, cling to

John 20:17

ἅπτομαι
haptomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
1a) to touch
1b) of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
1c) of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
1d) to touch, assail anyone
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: reflexive of G681

ἅπτομαι
háptomai; fut. hápsomai, mid. deponent from háptō (G681), to connect, bind. To apply oneself to, to touch. Refers to such handling of an object as to exert a modifying influence upon it or upon oneself. The same effect may be conveyed by the verb thiggánō (G2345). These words sometimes may be exchanged one for the other (e.g., Sept.: Exo 19:12). Both words are used together in Col 2:21. Háptomai is usually stronger than thiggánō (1Jn 5:18; Sept.: Psa 104:15). Thiggánō is correctly translated in Col 2:21 as "handle not," but the basic meaning is touching for the purpose of manipulating. Distinguished from psēlapháō (G5584), which actually only means to touch the surface of something (Luk 24:39; 1Jn 1:1). In 2Co 6:17, "touch no unclean thing" (a.t.), means have no dealings with the heathen (cf. Isa 52:11). In 1Co 7:1, "to touch a woman" is not to be taken literally, but is a euphemism for sexual intercourse. However, in the context of this verse, Paul seems to be referring to the whole idea of the sanctity of the marriage relationship. See Sept.: Gen 20:4, Gen 20:6. By implication in 1Jn 5:18, to harm, injure. See 1Ch 16:22; Job 5:19. Other references: Mat 8:3, Mat 8:15; Mat 9:20-21, Mat 9:29; Mat 14:36; Mat 17:7; Mat 20:34; Mar 1:41; Mar 3:10; Mar 5:27-28, Mar 5:30-31; Mar 6:56; Mar 7:33; Mar 8:22; Mar 10:13; Luk 5:13; Luk 6:19; Luk 7:14, Luk 7:39; Luk 8:44-47; Luk 18:15; Luk 22:51; Joh 20:17.
Syn.: prospsaúō (G4379), to touch upon, touch slightly (Luk 11:46); eggízō (G1448), to come near; piázō (G4084), to lay hand on; kolláō (G2853), to glue; proseggízō (G4331), to approach.
Ant.: apéchomai (G567), to hold oneself off; egkrateúomai (G1467), to exercise self-restraint; nḗphō (G3525), to be sober; sōphronéō (G4993), to exercise soundness of mind, to think soberly, use self-control.

So I do feel he ascended during the three days he was 'dead' and led captivity captive to heaven.   Then, he ascended in his resurrected body, before he met with his brethren, and presented himself to the Father in the real holy of holies [he is both high priest and sacrifice].  Then he ascended a third time where he sits at the right hand of God.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Jesus said the above to Nicodemus when He was still alive. It sounds like Jesus is claiming that at that point He already has ascended to heaven.....

[WhiteWings]

I'm still fairly new here - so what is that word not allowed on this forum?

Trinity and free will.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/not-'banned'-yet-discouraged-and-likely-redirected-topics/

[Molly]

Do you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....

The crucifixion, death, and resurrection is being played out in the body of man.

Dies and goes to Hades

Spirit ascends first [leading captivity captive]

Soul ascends next [brought by the high priest as the perfect sacrifice forever into the most holy place]

Body ascends last [and sits on the right hand of God]

[WhiteWings]

Jabcat, you do realize that Jesus was speaking a parable in Mat 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Parable: a short simple story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

But parables teach a certain pattern. So obviously there is a connection between what happened to Jonah and Jesus. But as I wrote a few post back: How far should we take it?

For me "soul sleep" is something people have made up because they are afraid of the word dead/death. Religion makes death a feared destination.

For me sleep and dead is about the same. No awareness of time. So for me personally it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches. I just want to figure out what...

Another parable...Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

That's an odd verse....
Dead seeds never bring forth anything. They are dead an eventually just rot away. Seeds that bring forth new life like flowers, wheat, etc never were really dead. To the human eye that weird little seed is useless and dead. But somewhere inside that seed is a beautiful flower waiting until spring arrives.
Do not take this to literal: Is a seed a flower in a soul sleep phase?

[WhiteWings]

When my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it,

That sounds like a simple statement Micah but it raises some questions.
When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?

and IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.

You are remembered until the forum crashes again and your posts are gone 

[WhiteWings]

Do you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....

The crucifixion, death, and resurrection is being played out in the body of man.

Dies and goes to Hades

Spirit ascends first [leading captivity captive]

Soul ascends next [brought by the high priest as the perfect sacrifice forever into the most holy place]

Body ascends last [and sits on the right hand of God]

Can you add times* to the above stages. It would make it much easier for me to understand your view.

*=Not taking about split second precision but something like: Almost instantly, after 3 days, after He met Mary, after about 40 days.

[Molly]

Do you still think so? One of the major problems I have with that view is that Jesus went to heaven and, say, 2 hours later is His second coming. Then 40 days later He ascends again. Meaning there will be a 3rd coming....

The crucifixion, death, and resurrection is being played out in the body of man.

Dies and goes to Hades

Spirit ascends first [leading captivity captive]

Soul ascends next [brought by the high priest as the perfect sacrifice forever into the most holy place]

Body ascends last [and sits on the right hand of God]

Can you add times* to the above stages. It would make it much easier for me to understand your view.

*=Not taking about split second precision but something like: Almost instantly, after 3 days, after He met Mary, after about 40 days.

This is all part of the crucifixion, death, and resurrection.


death:  1) resurrection of spirit from Hades ascends

resurrection of soul 2) after he meets Mary ascends

resurrection of body 3) after he ascends in front of disciples

[micah7:9]

When my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it,

That sounds like a simple statement Micah but it raises some questions.
When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?

and IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.

You are remembered until the forum crashes again and your posts are gone 

"When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?

As I stated "my last breath" that's the only one that matters, I would say its instant. It, my breath/spirit, was initially His, so my thought would be, He just keeps breathing and gathering the last breaths of others, to wait, being remembered IN Him.

[micah7:9]

Jabcat, you do realize that Jesus was speaking a parable in Mat 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Parable: a short simple story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

But parables teach a certain pattern. So obviously there is a connection between what happened to Jonah and Jesus. But as I wrote a few post back: How far should we take it?

For me "soul sleep" is something people have made up because they are afraid of the word dead/death. Religion makes death a feared destination.

For me sleep and dead is about the same. No awareness of time. So for me personally it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches. I just want to figure out what...

Another parable...Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

That's an odd verse....
Dead seeds never bring forth anything. They are dead an eventually just rot away. Seeds that bring forth new life like flowers, wheat, etc never were really dead. To the human eye that weird little seed is useless and dead. But somewhere inside that seed is a beautiful flower waiting until spring arrives.
Do not take this to literal: Is a seed a flower in a soul sleep phase?

Job 14:7  For there is hope of a tree, If it be cut down, that it will sprout again, And that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8  Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, And the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9  Yet through the scent of water it will bud, And put forth boughs like a plant.

Rev 21:6  and He said to me, `It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;

[micah7:9]

"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah.  I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days.  The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it.  I don't know.  But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.

How about this.....

Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."

It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."

I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone. 

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this: 

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.

[WhiteWings]

When my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it,

That sounds like a simple statement Micah but it raises some questions.
When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?

and IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.

You are remembered until the forum crashes again and your posts are gone 

"When does your breath return to God? Instantly after death? Or during one of the resurrections mentioned in Revelation?
Is that returning breath dead, alive or sleeping?

As I stated "my last breath" that's the only one that matters, I would say its instant. It, my breath/spirit, was initially His, so my thought would be, He just keeps breathing and gathering the last breaths of others, to wait, being remembered IN Him.

Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?

[sheila]

CLUE...lAMENTATIONS 4;20   tHE LORD'S ANNOINTED OUR VERY LIFE BREATH WAS CAUGHT IN THEIR TRAPS

  WE THOUGHT THAT UNDER HIS SHADOW WE WOULD LIVE AMONG THE NATIONS

[micah7:9]

CLUE...lAMENTATIONS 4;20   tHE LORD'S ANNOINTED OUR VERY LIFE BREATH WAS CAUGHT IN THEIR TRAPS

  WE THOUGHT THAT UNDER HIS SHADOW WE WOULD LIVE AMONG THE NATIONS

Read Lamentations as if the book was speaking to you. I can be real interesting and much can be gained.

[jabcat]

That's an odd verse....
Dead seeds never bring forth anything. They are dead an eventually just rot away. Seeds that bring forth new life like flowers, wheat, etc never were really dead. To the human eye that weird little seed is useless and dead. But somewhere inside that seed is a beautiful flower waiting until spring arrives.
Do not take this to literal: Is a seed a flower in a soul sleep phase?

Don't know if this helps with shedding any light of clearer meaning, but I looked up the greek word apothanE, which literally means along the lines of   MAY-BE-FROM-DYING...so the Originals may have meant either the plant "dying"/going into "winter mode", etc...rather than our literal 'dying'?  Just guessing, but may-be-from-dying still sounds a little different than saying the seed is literally dead. 

[WhiteWings]

To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.

[micah7:9]

To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.

"Really dead seed don't produce anything."
So then you guys don't believe Jesus "really" died?

[WhiteWings]

Mmmm, translations differ. It still doesn't solve the main problem for me but it's a start.

CLV (John 12:24) Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If a kernel of grain, falling into the earth, should not be dying, it is remaining alone, yet if it should be dying, it is bringing forth much fruit."

ACV (John 12:24) Truly, truly, I say to you, unless the grain of wheat that falls into the ground dies, it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit.

[micah7:9]

"Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?" WW

My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.

Yes, I believe that who I was, how I was thinking, all I ever was when I died(I will know not anything) Is captured(un conscience) in that breath/spirit UNTIL the resurrection and He is ready to makes His decision. I am speaking of the natural.

[WhiteWings]

To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.

"Really dead seed don't produce anything."
So then you guys don't believe Jesus "really" died?

A very honest answer Micah.
My view is that He was dead "in a secular way".
But I'm seeking with an as open as possible mind. That's why you will see me gving understandings of verses that possibly contradict thoughts I expressed in another post.

A seed 'works' by the laws of nature. God can overrule those laws.
A seed just waits until spring and then all by itself becomes a flower.
But in case of Jesus we read HS raised Jesus.

Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

[jabcat]

Alright, this is really cool!

I did some research on this verse.  Basically, the outer shell of the seed does literally die.  Guess what's happening on the inside?  The inside lives on, and germinates/regenerates/transforms.



"Critics say Jesus offers here (and Paul in 1 Cor.) a fiction that seeds literally die, which is scientifically false.

Even on the surface this objection moves too fast -- the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (cf. Rom. 5:15). Critics assume that apothnesko equates with our modern idea of clinical death -- but how can this be so, since such a concept did not yet exist, with medical textbooks thousands of years in the future?

For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.

Once the seed falls into fertile ground, the outer shell begins to open as it dies; and inside the dead shell, new life awaits. Then, in the right conditions, the new growth will begin to emerge. Once the seed coat breaks, the seed begins to germinate by growing down into the soil and developing a primary root."   (from examiner.com and tekton.com)

[micah7:9]

Alright, this is really cool!

I did some research on this verse.  Basically, the outer shell of the seed does literally die.  Guess what's happening on the inside?  The inside lives on, and germinates/regenerates/transforms.



"Critics say Jesus offers here (and Paul in 1 Cor.) a fiction that seeds literally die, which is scientifically false.

Even on the surface this objection moves too fast -- the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (cf. Rom. 5:15). Critics assume that apothnesko equates with our modern idea of clinical death -- but how can this be so, since such a concept did not yet exist, with medical textbooks thousands of years in the future?

For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.

Once the seed falls into fertile ground, the outer shell begins to open as it dies; and inside the dead shell, new life awaits. Then, in the right conditions, the new growth will begin to emerge. Once the seed coat breaks, the seed begins to germinate by growing down into the soil and developing a primary root."   (from examiner.com and tekton.com)

I like that, good find, that's why I like Job 14:7  For there is hope of a tree, If it be cut down, that it will sprout again, And that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8  Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, And the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9  Yet through the scent of water it will bud, And put forth boughs like a plant.

[WhiteWings]

"Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?" WW

My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.

Yes, I believe that who I was, how I was thinking, all I ever was when I died(I will know not anything) Is captured(un conscience) in that breath/spirit UNTIL the resurrection and He is ready to makes His decision. I am speaking of the natural.

Sorry I don't understand what you wrote because it sounds like soul sleep which you don't believe in if I'm correct.

My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.

An active breath is not dead.

captured(un conscience)

Bit like sleeping.

Micah, I know this stuff annoys your greatly; but it's how I understand your post(s)

[micah7:9]

To be honest I don't have have a clue how to read may-be-from-dying.....
For the rest of your post: I think we agree. Really dead seed don't produce anything.

"Really dead seed don't produce anything."
So then you guys don't believe Jesus "really" died?

A very honest answer Micah.
My view is that He was dead "in a secular way".
But I'm seeking with an as open as possible mind. That's why you will see me gving understandings of verses that possibly contradict thoughts I expressed in another post.

A seed 'works' by the laws of nature. God can overrule those laws.
A seed just waits until spring and then all by itself becomes a flower.
But in case of Jesus we read HS raised Jesus.

Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

That's just why i Love Him so Much!

[micah7:9]

"Ok. The breath instantly returns to God. Is that breath still active/alive? Does it have your mind?" WW

My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.

Yes, I believe that who I was, how I was thinking, all I ever was when I died(I will know not anything) Is captured(un conscience) in that breath/spirit UNTIL the resurrection and He is ready to makes His decision. I am speaking of the natural.

Sorry I don't understand what you wrote because it sounds like soul sleep which you don't believe in if I'm correct.

My breath I believe will be as active/alive as in however way He does what He does.

An active breath is not dead.

captured(un conscience)

Bit like sleeping.

Micah, I know this stuff annoys your greatly; but it's how I understand your post(s)

Well friend should you find anything about this heretic "soul sleep" mentioned in the Bible, please show me the verse. As for me soul sleep is nothing more than speculation, assumption, and theological interpretation.

[WhiteWings]

Alright, this is really cool!

That beats flaming hot

I did some research on this verse.  Basically, the outer shell of the seed does literally die.  Guess what's happening on the inside?  The inside lives on, and germinates/regenerates/transforms.

The outer shell obviously is the body of flesh.

"Critics say Jesus offers here (and Paul in 1 Cor.) a fiction that seeds literally die, which is scientifically false.

Sounds a bit like me 

Even on the surface this objection moves too fast -- the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (cf. Rom. 5:15). Critics assume that apothnesko equates with our modern idea of clinical death -- but how can this be so, since such a concept did not yet exist, with medical textbooks thousands of years in the future?

I think the Romans were expert on dead people...
Seriously ancient Jews knew the concept of death. They didn't have million dollar stuff to measure and prove it but who needs that with a decaying body?

For this objection to work, Skeptics must show that apothnesko means only the total extinguishing of life signs and of living matter in a given organism, and that this concept applies not only to animal matter, but to plant matter as well. As it is, that Jesus draws a parallel here to his resurrection -- a case in which his body did not get to decay to any real extent -- suggests rather a view in which seeds retained the spark of life in them even as their outer shells perished.

Soul seed sleep.

Once the seed falls into fertile ground, the outer shell begins to open as it dies; and inside the dead shell, new life awaits. Then, in the right conditions, the new growth will begin to emerge. Once the seed coat breaks, the seed begins to germinate by growing down into the soil and developing a primary root."   (from examiner.com and tekton.com)

Short video showing a germinating seed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDN0yAFcQok