Please Define Death

[jabcat]

Thanks for answering that question Molly.  Without having looked it up, that's what I thought (except I'd forgotten the "days of Noah" part.  One of my favorite verses!).

[micah7:9]

Well Molly sure defined death with that one.

[jabcat]

"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah.  I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days.  The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it.  I don't know.  But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did. 

[Molly]

BECAUSE THOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL [Hades],  NEITHER WILL THOU SUFFER THY HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.

 Acts 2:27


Look there--a soul, Micah, alive after death!



18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

---1 Peter 3



Can't you just see him ascending into heaven triumphant like a victorious conqueror leading all his captives in a great parade?

[Molly]

"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah.  I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days.  The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it.  I don't know.  But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.

Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,



10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

--Jonah 2

[micah7:9]

Well maybe some day you all can answer why you are so possessive of this clay vessel and why you seem to be so afraid of death. Seems like you think spiritual death is your death.

BECAUSE THOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL [Hades],  NEITHER WILL THOU SUFFER THY HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.

 Acts 2:27

But David did die didn't he, because he has not made the judgment as of yet. Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
And I know there is life after death.
 "Can't you just see him ascending into heaven triumphant like a victorious conqueror leading all his captives in a great parade?" That's your imagination cause that never happened. Sorry, and that human imagination you have, is a good part of your belief.

[Molly]

I'm not possessive of this clay vessel.  I've already told you we don't need it to live.

Nor, am I afraid of death.  I've already 'died' twice.

But, let me ask you, why are you so afraid of not dying?  Or are you?

Jesus said, if one returned from the dead, they wouldn't believe him.

Many have returned from the dead in this day and age, and he's right, no one believes them.

[micah7:9]

I'm not possessive of this clay vessel.  I've already told you we don't need it to live.

Nor, am I afraid of death.  I've already 'died' twice.

But, let me ask you, why are you so afraid of not dying?  Or are you?

Jesus said, if one returned from the dead, they wouldn't believe him.

Many have returned from the dead in this day and age, and he's right, no one believes them.

You may believe "Many have returned from the dead in this day and age,..." but I do not.

[Molly]

well, what do you think they were doing with no heartbeat and no breathing for as long as --longest I've heard of--45 minutes?  That person was under water.

[micah7:9]

 

[reFORMer]

Mary holding onto Jesus in the garden early in the morning He raised from the dead and Jesus saying not to because He hadn't yet ascended to the Father was about His prophecy that He was going away to the Father and they couldn't come along.  Thereafter He would return to abide with them always.  Mary thought Jesus' going away was in death, just as today many think, when you die you go see God.  Now, Mary thought, He had returned to be with us always; but, He actually hadn't left yet.  The form with which He would make His permanent home with us was sent forth as Spirit into and upon us from the Throne after His ascension on the Day of Pentecost.  This is another Spirit than our own spirit selves.  Other than His own body, He makes our bodies His own.  The new man is many members as one body. (1 Cor 12¹²)  His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection in the sight of over 500 men (they didn't number the women and children, which would make the number approximately two or three times that:  1,000 to 1,500.)  Ascended He was sent never to leave us as Spirit inhabiting our bodies with us.
________________________________________
from post #21 . . .

Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity.  God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit didn't all  die when Jesus the Son died.  Why should the entire man be thought to die when the body dies.

Even without dying, Elijah went out (of his body) in the spirit and saw his servant catching up to Naaman the Syrian who he'd healed of leprosy.  His servant was begging the gifts off of Naaman that he'd offered Elijah.  This is another illustration of living as a spirit apart from a body.

My body is me.  If you touch my body you touch me.  My soul and my spirit are also me.  Existing in three dimensions simultaneously, spirit, soul and body is one person.  If I am broken into pieces, as in death of the body, all parts are still me, at least for a while.  When the body returns to dust, them the realm in which it is, the realm of embodiment (which is actually the scope of what our body is) will yet be glorified and we will yet be raised back into it, glorified.

[micah7:9]

"Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity...." That is your religious belief.

According to the Bible, the Word of God man is...body and breath/spirit, dual a living soul.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[reFORMer]

"Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity...." That is your religious belief.

According to the Bible, the Word of God man is...body and breath/spirit, dual a living soul.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, not my religious belief; rather, it is my Biblical belief.  "Now may the God of peace Himself be hallowing you wholly; and may your unimpaired spirit and soul and body be kept blameless in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ!" (Thessalonians 5²³, Concordant Literal)  The complete you, what is sanctified in its entirety, is here said to be:  "spirit and soul and body."

What you quote, Genesis 2⁷, says man is made of 1.) the dust, his body, the breath of "lives" (life [plural],) which is 2.)his spirit, and a developing 3.) soul (which is thought, will and emotion) that is the result of the spirit in the body.  Differing from the soul, the functions of spirit are, conscience, communion, and intuition.  The Greek words were given interesting keywords by A. E. Knoch:  "pneuma" WIND-effect, "psyche" COOL-ic, and "soma" body.  We know our bodies are mostly (3/4ths) water. The breeze blows upon the waters and the effect is a cooling.  Inspiring, expiring...the spiration of 1.) the spirit upon 3.) the body cause 2.) the soul.  It is like the 1.) electricity in the bulb sheltered 3.) tungsten creates 2.) light and heat.

[WhiteWings]

I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father."  There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places.  I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days.  Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.

That would mean He went to heaven between teh time He met Mary and Thomas touched Him. Meaning His second coming was before Thomas touched Him.
There is an alternative explanation.

....do not cling to me because I haven't ascended yet.

Jesus didn't forbid Mary to touch Him. He told her not have the false hope He would stay with her because He hasn't returned to heaven yet at that time.


(John 20:17) Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

[jabcat]

These last 2 posts are  .  Good job guys, very interesting finds.  I had totally forgotten/overlooked that verse reF.  The CB says  "Now may the God of peace Himself purify you completely throughout your whole being; and may your whole being in all its parts (spirit, sentient being [SOUL] and body) be kept blameless at the Presence of our Master Yesu (the Anointed One)"

Things are often not what they seem to be on the surface, are they?  "Don't cling/try to hold or keep me here"!  I never even considered such a possible interpretation.  The more I think I know, the less I really do.   

Wow...it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, the honor of kings to search out a matter.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus spent three days preaching to the captives in 'hell'

So he went and preached to the spirits in prison--  1 Pet 3:19
1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."  Eph 4:8

Why do you quote this verse in connection with Jesus' death?
Do you think this verse is about Jesus leading captives to heaven during the 3 days in the tomb?
If so why did He tell Mary He hasn't ascended to heaven at the time He met her?

[WhiteWings]

"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah.  I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days.  The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it.  I don't know.  But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.

While I'm not saying there is no conection between Jesus 3 day in the tomb and Jonah we have to take care not to take the pattern to far. Obviously there are very clear differences. Jesus isn't Jonah and wasn't buried in a fish.
So are we allowed to conclude because Jonah was alive all the time Jesus was also?
If we do we should be fair and also note Jonah didn't leave the fish for 3 days. Similary that would mean Jesus didn't leave the tomb for 3 days to preach to spirits in prison as some claim.

[WhiteWings]

Isn't there some indication in scripture that Jesus went and proclaimed His victory during those three days, and "led captivity captive", or is that way too open to interpretation?  Would Laz and some other folks weigh in on that question, "what did Jesus do during the 3 days His body was in the tomb"?  Thanks.

Not all parts of all verses are in the same time line. I still don't know how such a contruct is called in English so I'll give an example.

Jabcat, who plays golf, posted 5 times on TM today.
"who plays golf" is just mentioning your hobby. But it doesn't mean you played golf today between your posts.

[Molly]

Jesus tells Mary not to touch him [in his resurrected body] because he has not yet ascended to his Father [in his new body].   First meaning for that word is 'touch' but it could mean 'attach oneself to.'

I've always thought that he did ascend after he sent her away because he has to present himself as the high priest in heaven.  Once the high priest puts on his robes and prepares himself and the sacrifice for the holy of holies, he cannot be touched until he has performed his duties, otherwise he has to start all over again.  He says to her,  go and tell my brethren that I am ascending to heaven.  So I believe he ascended and returned in that time.

There are other words that mean cling

Kallao--to join, cleave to, cling to


9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil ; cling to what is good.


16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.


But, this word in John 20, haptomai, is translated 36 times as 'touch' and means just what it sounds like it means, 'touch.'

So I do feel he ascended during the three days he was 'dead' and led captivity captive to heaven.   Then, he ascended in his resurrected body, before he met with his brethren, and presented himself to the Father in the real holy of holies [he is both high priest and sacrifice].  Then he ascended a third time where he sits at the right hand of God.

But, I'm not going to fight anyone over it.  It's just the way I feel about it.



Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.  Heb 9:24

[Molly]

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  --1 Peter 3



8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

--Eph 4



Jonah in the belly of the fish is a type of death and descending into the place of the dead: Jesus went to the same place when he died.



4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.  Jon 2

[micah7:9]

"Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity...." That is your religious belief.

According to the Bible, the Word of God man is...body and breath/spirit, dual a living soul.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, not my religious belief; rather, it is my Biblical belief.  "Now may the God of peace Himself be hallowing you wholly; and may your unimpaired spirit and soul and body be kept blameless in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ!" (Thessalonians 5²³, Concordant Literal)  The complete you, what is sanctified in its entirety, is here said to be:  "spirit and soul and body."

What you quote, Genesis 27, says man is made of 1.) the dust, his body, the breath of "lives" (life [plural],) which is 2.)his spirit, and a developing 3.) soul (which is thought, will and emotion) that is the result of the spirit in the body.  Differing from the soul, the functions of spirit are, conscience, communion, and intuition.  The Greek words were given interesting keywords by A. E. Knoch:  "pneuma" WIND-effect, "psyche" COOL-ic, and "soma" body.  We know our bodies are mostly (3/4ths) water. The breeze blows upon the waters and the effect is a cooling.  Inspiring, expiring...the spiration of 1.) the spirit upon 3.) the body cause 2.) the soul.  It is like the 1.) electricity in the bulb sheltered 3.) tungsten creates 2.) light and heat.

As usual you take the understanding of how the Greek represents the "sentient being" as the "soul."
I will stand on what the Bible, at the beginning, defines what made up a living soul: dust and breath.
As far as your trinity, "three persons" in one, show me where the Holy Spirit is a person, and as far as I have found the "trinity teaching" is a hypothesis, I don't believe in theories at least not when it comes to the Word of God. Besides I thought that word was not allowed on the forum??????

[Lazarus Short]

I've always thought that he did ascend after he sent her away because he has to present himself as the high priest in heaven.  Once the high priest puts on his robes and prepares himself and the sacrifice for the holy of holies, he cannot be touched until he has performed his duties, otherwise he has to start all over again.  He says to her,  go and tell my brethren that I am ascending to heaven.  So I believe he ascended and returned in that time.

Excellent!     I also have this in mind, as to why Jesus did not want Mary to touch Him before He ascended - Leviticus 21:11, Numbers 6:6-7, Numbers 19:11-13, and there are others verses I could have quoted.  I'm thinking that, besides the priestly aspect, for Jesus to come in contact with a living (non-glorified) human in His glorified state would be analogous to a living human coming into contact with a dead body.  He would have been defiled, and He had urgent Priestly matters to attend to.

[Lazarus Short]

As usual you take the understanding of how the Greek represents the "sentient being" as the "soul."
I will stand on what the Bible, at the beginning, defines what made up a living soul: dust and breath.
As far as your trinity, "three persons" in one, show me where the Holy Spirit is a person, and as far as I have found the "trinity teaching" is a hypothesis, I don't believe in theories at least not when it comes to the Word of God. Besides I thought that word was not allowed on the forum??????

Micah, I'm with you on the dust + breath = soul.  Yes, let's not get side-tracked into Greek thinking - the language is fine, but the mindset/philosophy is not.

I'm still fairly new here - so what is that word not allowed on this forum? 

[Molly]

For which cause he tells us,


THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HADES WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.

--Mat 16:18

[micah7:9]

"for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

 
This really is an interesting scripture, the comparison of Jesus and Jonah.  I'm not sure it can "stand alone" as total evidence one way or the other without putting other scriptures with it, but interesting to me is (as briefly noted earlier) Jonah's spirit was still living, he was still conscious and aware, even though his body was "buried" for 3 days.  The comparison the scripture is making, and the point could be, both their bodies were buried, and that's it.  I don't know.  But it seems to me if one wants to make a total, direct comparison to prove or disprove "soul sleep", this scrip would indicate Jesus still had consciousness somewhere, His spirit still living on since Jonah did.

Jabcat, you do realize that Jesus was speaking a parable in Mat 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Parable: a short simple story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

For me "soul sleep" is something people have made up because they are afraid of the word dead/death. Religion makes death a feared destination. Another parable...Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
This is the best I can do as to how I have been given to understand my death as a human being(leaving out my born again  experience) When my last breath/spirit leaves my body, my body quits and it is dead and empty and I know not anything. My breath/spirit returns to the one who gave it, and IN the one who gave it my breath/spirit is remembered, for how long? David asked that question as well as Job, I do not know. What is known is that my breath/spirit is remembered IN the one who gave it until the judgment.