Please Define Death

[WhiteWings]

We had this discussion a few times since I'm a Tentie. Likely the same topic was discussed before then.
Still no agreement. Perhaps a good start is to collect all verses that (seem to) prove (no) death.

The verses may look obvious but appenrently they aren't because views differ. Likely because the verses seem to contradict. So we need a "key" that unlocks the riddle...

[jabcat]

We had this discussion a few times since I'm a Tentie. Likely the same topic was discussed before then.
Still no agreement. Perhaps a good start is to collect all verses that (seem to) prove (no) death.

The verses may look obvious but appenrently they aren't because views differ. Likely because the verses seem to contradict. So we need a "key" that unlocks the riddle...

 

[jabcat]

I believe what you say is right, as with many topics.  Sometimes, taking one or two scriptures and hanging a total belief system on them can lead down the wrong path.  Many/most scriptures can "stand alone" (God is love, Christ died for us, call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved, love your enemies, etc., etc.).  Others seem to need a fuller study, comparing several scriptures to one another, then seeking revelation from the Lord on proper interpretation.  I'm afraid this topic falls into the latter group.  I lean toward consciousness after death, and can present some reasons why.  But I also believe it may be more "complicated" than that, i.e., where is that consciousness, in what realm, doing what, etc...But I don't know that I have that one "key" that you mention, that "brings it all together".   

[WhiteWings]

(Eccl 9:5) For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything, nor have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,....

(1Sam 28:15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why have thou disquieted me, to bring me up? .....

Mat 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Psalm 6:5 No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?


http://www.thewordteaches.com/questions/Soul%20Seep.htm
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=the-Dead

[jabcat]

   Good.  Just as we said though, there are many scriptures and interpretations.  I'll match ya' with this view of it.

"Indeed it seems, because of this comment from Peter in Matthew 17:4, as if the disciples had seen Elijah and Moses with their own eyes and had recognized them:

"Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." (KJV)

Were Moses and Elijah "conscious of nothing at all"?

The great hope is to be with Christ at death, not to be dead and conscious of nothing at all.

What did the first martyr, Stephen, see and say as he was stoned to death? 

Acts 7:55, 56:  "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of  man standing on the right hand of God." (KJV)

Acts 7:59:  "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (KJV)

What was the great hope of Paul, who as Saul had witnessed the stoning of Stephen?

       Philippians 1:21, 23: "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:" (KJV)

       2 Corinthians 5:6-8: "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (KJV)

We must be very careful what we teach as truth from the book of Ecclesiastes.  The writer of the book is identified in chapter 1, verse 1, as the son of David, king in Jerusalem. This was Solomon. Page 44 of the Watchtower Society's 1950 booklet, "Evolution versus the New World" identifies Solomon as the writer of Ecclesiastes.  The theme of the book is identified in the second verse of chapter one, "vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Solomon is showing what a life and all its accomplishments are without God; it is hardly a life to pattern our lives after. Better we should pattern our lives after Paul, who had a desire "to be with Christ; which is far better.     http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/ecclesiastes_9.htm

[sheila]

   that is one of the keys Jabcat...the vanity the creature was subjected too...worthless emptiness...the opposite of life/God/consciousness

[jabcat]

   that is one of the keys Jabcat...the vanity the creature was subjected too...worthless emptiness...the opposite of life/God/consciousness

 

[micah7:9]

Should you see the carcass of a skunk or armadillo lying along the side of the road (road kill) that animal is what is called dead. Should you go to the morgue and see a human being lying on a slab, cold, and white, that human is dead. After a fire cracker is set off and it pops, that fire cracker is dead. Dead is dead.


Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
This, which I guess is unclear...was a VISION, something gazed at; to appear
Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Act 7:59  and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Stephen was stoned till he became dead. The breath/spirit goes back to the one who gave it, but Stephen was expired, not breathing or spiriting, he was dead.

1Co 15:16  for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17  and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

Act 3:15  and the Prince of the life ye did kill, whom God did raise out of the dead, of which we are witnesses;
Act 4:10  be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.

Act 13:30  and God did raise him out of the dead,

Act 13:34  `And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus--I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David;

Act 17:31  because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'


Your breath/spirit is back to the one who gave it and will be there in that very state until it's  judgment. A spirit without a body, is not a living soul, that body is dead, until The Father will do what ever He will do.

JESUS CHRIST the SAVIOR died (dead) for the sins of the world.

[sheila]

let the dead bury their own dead,but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.   

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, walking dead. Another bit of proof dead isn't always dead....

[micah7:9]

You all are funny.

[sheila]

 

   zombie apocolypse

[jabcat]

I see I Cor. 15:16  as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did. 

Which is one of my other questions I had.  When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV),  what was it doing for those 3 days?

[micah7:9]

I see I Cor. 15:16  as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did. 

Which is one of my other questions I had.  When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV),  what was it doing for those 3 days?

Hey Jab have you misplaced the very essential truth?

Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.

2Co 5:18  And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20  in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21  for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

[jabcat]

I see I Cor. 15:16  as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did. 

Which is one of my other questions I had.  When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV),  what was it doing for those 3 days?

Hey Jab have you misplaced the very essential truth?

Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.

2Co 5:18  And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20  in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21  for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

Not as far as I know.

But I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly with these verses as far as what Jesus' spirit was doing for those 3 days, related to defining death.  If the following has anything at all to do with what you're saying though, I'm not a "oneness", i.e., I don't believe the scriptures teach that Jesus and God being "one" literally means they are one entity [as does the UPC/"Oneness" doctrine].  I believe there's a Father and a Son, distinct "Beings", Who are both divine, Who are of the same Substance, Who work in tandem/complete cooperation, i.e., as one - in Spirit, in unity, in all thoughts and behavior, though distinct "Individuals", they are one - in every purpose.

[Lazarus Short]

I see I Cor. 15:16  as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did. 

Which is one of my other questions I had.  When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV),  what was it doing for those 3 days?

I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father."  There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places.  I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days.  Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.

[jabcat]

I see I Cor. 15:16  as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did. 

Which is one of my other questions I had.  When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV),  what was it doing for those 3 days?

I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father."  There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places.  I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days.  Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.

I know that argument (and thought process) regarding His sacrifice.  I've wondered about it myself, as recently as earlier today.     A thought about that is, even if His spirit was still active and conscious, His body was indeed dead and gave up His spirit.  How does that relate to death entering the world by Adam's sin?  Does that have to be the spirit and body, or just the body?  And that's really the question as I understand.  Does the spirit also go to sleep/go into unconscious numbness, or is it doing something else.  Sometimes the things I'm "sure about", end up having other possibilities.  Him saying He had not yet ascended to the Father, IMO, isn't fully defined.  I.e., does that mean His body, His spirit, or His spirit and body together hadn't ascended?  It was His body He was telling her not to touch, but I'm not sure if that explains much.  But if His spirit hadn't returned to the Father, then that brings back the other question of "and the spirit returns to God Who gave it",  i.e., when?  Immediately as the "body returns to the ground", or after it's been numbed for awhile, or does God take it back "as dead", etc.?

Just a quick "bottom line" note - seems to me, that even IF one were "asleep" for a few thousand years in unconsciousness, they would breathe their last here and when they awakened, it would seem like only a split second - so in that regard only, they're sort of the same thing.   

[jabcat]

Isn't there some indication in scripture that Jesus went and proclaimed His victory during those three days, and "led captivity captive", or is that way too open to interpretation?  Would Laz and some other folks weigh in on that question, "what did Jesus do during the 3 days His body was in the tomb"?  Thanks.

[micah7:9]

I see I Cor. 15:16  as saying they do rise, since/because Christ did. 

Which is one of my other questions I had.  When Jesus' body breathed its last and He released His spirit into God's hands ("gave up the ghost" KJV),  what was it doing for those 3 days?

I can tell you what Jesus was not doing for those three days, for He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father."  There you have it - He was not in the Heavenly places, and quite dead in the Earthly places.  I make the simple assumption that Jesus was dead (as we understand death) for those three days.  Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice.

Amen!  " Otherwise His sacrifice was a bit less of a sacrifice."

[micah7:9]

Isn't there some indication in scripture that Jesus went and proclaimed His victory during those three days, and "led captivity captive", or is that way too open to interpretation?  Would Laz and some other folks weigh in on that question, "what did Jesus do during the 3 days His body was in the tomb"?  Thanks.

(ASV)  for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

(KJV)  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

(RV)  for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

(WNT)  For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS IN THE SEA-MONSTER'S BELLY, so will the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.

(YLT)  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.


As for led captivity captive, Eph. 4:8, I've always wondered what was this captivity that was led captive. It seems something was in captivity, but was not let lose, but led captive. But the Bible reads that He was in the "earth" I believe that is important, we, or at least I thought He was buried or in a tomb. Jesus was in the EARTH, there is much to be done in the earth I think.

[jabcat]

we, or at least I thought He was buried or in a tomb.

I haven't seen anyone suggest otherwise.

As far as Jonah being in the whale, I don't think his spirit was dead or asleep... 

[jabcat]

Looking around just now about this topic, I saw this on another forum.

"I'm confused ...When Jesus died did he just sleep ..?


Answer:  "Perhaps we can ask Him that one day. Until then, the topic of soul sleep leads to lots of conjecture."   

'ya think?   

 

[micah7:9]

Looking around just now about this topic, I saw this on another forum.

"I'm confused ...When Jesus died did he just sleep ..?


Answer:  "Perhaps we can ask Him that one day. Until then, the topic of soul sleep leads to lots of conjecture."   

'ya think?   

 

What is so hard about understanding death and it's definition? Jesus was raised from the dead, call it sleep if it makes you feel better. But the great and wonderful deed was, God raising His Son from the dead.

(ASV)  And when his disciples heard thereof, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.

(KJV)  And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.

(RV)  And when his disciples heard thereof, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.

(WNT)  When John's disciples heard of it, they came and took away his body and laid it in a tomb.

(YLT)  and having heard, his disciples came and took up his corpse, and laid it in the tomb.

Corpse G4430  ptōma   a ruin, that is, (specifically) lifeless body (corpse, carrion): - dead body, carcase, corpse

[Molly]

Micah, are you still promoting death?  Don't you know we don't need these bodies to live? 

Jesus spent three days preaching to the captives in 'hell'

So he went and preached to the spirits in prison--  1 Pet 3:19


1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."  Eph 4:8

[micah7:9]

Micah, are you still promoting death?  Don't you know we don't need these bodies to live? 

Jesus spent three days preaching to the captives in 'hell'

So he went and preached to the spirits in prison--  1 Pet 3:19


1 Peter 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."  Eph 4:8

Good ol staunch Molly, no I am very much for life and that more abundantly, and have it, thank you Jesus. I just have not figured out why born again believers, who are alive in Christ, are so adamant against not excepting the same walk that Jesus gave example to and Paul expounded so greatly. That's all.  O yeah...you can run...but you can't hide.      Peace.