Please Define Death

[dajomaco]

Little key seems to be what is said to the Thessalonians:
1 Thess 4;16,17 " Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command,
with a chief messenger's voice
and with a trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
after that, we the livng who are left, shall be caught away in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air;
and thus shall we be evermore with the Lord."

* The dead "in Christ" seems to be a statement. If people are already there how will they rise when Christ comes?

I think this group that he is talking about here, they are alive with Christ, but the body is dead and in the grave.  So 'the dead in Christ' will rise, means they will 'stand up' [in their resurrected, and glorified, bodies].

There is no time outside of the space-time continuum.  We will all wake up at the resurrection at the same time, but to each one it will be just like you blinked, or maybe had a quick nod off while in this realm

I agree with the above I had a vision of me waking and standing just behind my great
great, great grandfather from Ireland he was wearing really weird cloths.
He turned around and looked at me and both new each other instantly.

It left me with such a warm nice feeling for days and it made me search the internet
for old Irish warriors wear. He had a shield and spear.

[reFORMer]

Some years ago, in what dictionary I don't know, the definition of DEATH was CESSATION OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE EVNIRONMENT.

[micah7:9]

According to the Bible.....Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.
That's about it.  Course the Bible could be wrong?

[WhiteWings]

The Bible isn't wrong. But the translation and/or interpretation can be wrong.
While I think we have the same view on this verse I want to mention another very clear verse that obviously isn't that clear after considering what it means....

(Jer 32:35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


Very clear. God never thought about what thousands of Molech worseshippers did.
Mmm, maby it's not that clear after all. It would mean there is at least one thing the all-knowing God didn't know.....

I don't see how, but perhaps there is a similar twist to "dead know nothing" ?

[WhiteWings]

Some years ago, in what dictionary I don't know, the definition of DEATH was CESSATION OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE EVNIRONMENT.

Then the next important question is: Which enviorment?
Do the dead stop interacting with any enviorment? Or just stop interacting with "this"  enviorment and start interacting with the spiritual enviorment?

[jabcat]

The Bible isn't wrong. But the translation and/or interpretation can be wrong.
I don't see how, but perhaps there is a similar twist to "dead know nothing" ?

I remember seeing an explanation/POV once (a couple of years ago) that said this has to do with "in this earthly realm",  that the context of the verse is important to ascertain what it really means/is talking about.  Also, if there are verses that appear to say something different, then a verse may need to be put in the context of all related verses to get it "rightly divided".  Anyway, maybe later I can find that post that might be of benefit.

[micah7:9]

DEATH...to be dead, to be a corpse, to have expired and no longer breathe....dead... and know not anything. This is not difficult....1Co 15:15  and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17  and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
1Co 15:18  then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
1Co 15:19  if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20  But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep. [asleep=dead]

[jabcat]

It's a difficult subject.  I guess everyone needs to take it before the Lord for guidance and understanding of the scriptures.  Either way one believes and understands, here's the post from a former member I was looking for.  It may be useful.  Blessings.

"And He did preach His conquest of death to the dead and they that were in their graves heard the voice of the Son of God and were raised from the dead with Him, according to Matthew's Gospel -- when He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city.  John 5 says that the dead can hear.  So much for your misapplication of the know nothing passage from Ecclesiastes 9 that contextually is about Solomon repenting of all of his sins, including occultic practices that he couldn't be forthcoming about without being stoned.  The dead at that time knew nothing of what was going on in this world and therefore were of absolutely no help and no benefit to those alive on this earth.  It's an admonition in Ecclesiastes 9 against the occult.

However, in Ephesians since we're raised up to sit together with Him in heavenly places, it plainly tells us in Hebrews that we're surrounded with a great cloud of witnesses and as we preach the Gospel, Lord Jesus was coming with the clouds of heaven and those that pierced Him saw the Son of God, in the preaching of the Gospel, and lived."

[WhiteWings]

when He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city

Was that a resurrection to everlasting life? Or did those people die again, say, 2 decades later?
Did Jesus give Lazarus everlasting life before He Himself was resurrected?
I can accept things changed after His resurrection but how about this verse?

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

[micah7:9]

when He was raised from the dead, so were they and many of them appeared to many in the city

Was that a resurrection to everlasting life? Or did those people die again, say, 2 decades later?
Did Jesus give Lazarus everlasting life before He Himself was resurrected?
I can accept things changed after His resurrection but how about this verse?

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

No. and Yes they dies again later. and No. and David is still dead and in his tomb.

[jabcat]

I also believe they died again.

We know his body is there, at least.

About 4 questions have occurred to me today.  I'll start with one.

Why is nemocrancy so forbidden in the scriptures?

[WhiteWings]

Humm, don't know.
Is it of importance for this thread. If God resurrected people they are no longer dead.

[jabcat]

Humm, don't know.
Is it of importance for this thread.

If the total person is dead/asleep (including all consciousness) then why would it matter?

[WhiteWings]

Ha, now I understand what your question is leading to.
The body is dead.
If the mind can somehow communicate can it be considered dead?

The witch of Endor was a necromancer. There death was called "rest". That doesn't sound as aactive heavinly life. More like sleeping. Meaning no consciousness.

[jabcat]

Ha, now I understand what your question is leading to.
The body is dead.
If the mind can somehow communicate can it be considered dead?

The witch of Endor was a necromancer. There death was called "rest". That doesn't sound as aactive heavinly life. More like sleeping. Meaning no consciousness.

One thing I'm wondering is, if there's consciousness "in another realm", maybe the act of nemoncracy is calling (or attempting to call) that consciousness and interaction back into this realm, and God forbids humans from doing that.  (however there seems to be some scriptural evidence that HE does?)

Which brings me to the next question, related.  The spirit "returns to God Who gave it".  Does that spirit go into hibernation, is numbed/asleep, or in a holding state "beyond this veil" [the "rest"] yet still conscious, in another realm waiting to return to a resurrected body?  Didn't the Jews in scripture and their writings call that Paradise [Abraham's bosom]?

[WhiteWings]

The spirit "returns to God Who gave it".

I'm sure that's right. But when? Instantly?
If it returns to God instantly will it be asleep in a huge heavingly bedroom for a certain time?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Resting souls. There is some interaction.

http://www.bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg04-6/rev06d-5th-seal.htm

[jabcat]

The spirit "returns to God Who gave it".

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Resting souls. There is some interaction.

good find 

[micah7:9]

The spirit "returns to God Who gave it".

I'm sure that's right. But when? Instantly?
If it returns to God instantly will it be asleep in a huge heavingly bedroom for a certain time?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Resting souls. There is some interaction.

http://www.bibleexplained.com/revelation/r-seg04-6/rev06d-5th-seal.htm

How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

[WhiteWings]

Micah, can you explain your reply?
What does that verse teach us in the context of this thread?

[micah7:9]

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

[WhiteWings]

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

Clear.

But it doesn't tell us how long after death that judgement takes place.
Say judgement takes place 5 year after death.
Are the dead dead during those 5 years or are they just alive and waiting?
I think that's what the topic is about?

[micah7:9]

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

Clear.

But it doesn't tell us how long after death that judgement takes place.
Say judgement takes place 5 year after death.
Are the dead dead during those 5 years or are they just alive and waiting?
I think that's what the topic is about?

In His time judgment will take place.
The "dead" are dead. The dead are certainly not alive and waiting. The topic, I thought was "Please define Death."
Besides Peter says 1Pe 4:17  because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
Those of us who are of the house of God are being judged now, for we have died in Him and are being judged.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
Rev 20:12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;

[WhiteWings]

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

Clear.

But it doesn't tell us how long after death that judgement takes place.
Say judgement takes place 5 year after death.
Are the dead dead during those 5 years or are they just alive and waiting?
I think that's what the topic is about?

In His time judgment will take place.
The "dead" are dead. The dead are certainly not alive and waiting. The topic, I thought was "Please define Death."

In secular life that's a very simple question. But not on TM.
Some believe the dead are totally dead in a secular way.
Others believe the dead are instantly alive and with God. Bit like the classic NDE of people floating trough a tunnel towards God.
Others believe the body dies and the bodiless spirit "is somewhere" waiting until the resurrection where it gets a new body.

I'm just trying to figure out all those views on what dead really is.
Your view is dead=totally 100% dead in a secular way. Right?

[micah7:9]

Yep.

[jabcat]

The "dead" are dead. The dead are certainly not alive and waiting. The topic, I thought was "Please define Death."

IMO, that's a valid opinion.  Others have other reasons within the scriptures to think otherwise.  This whole discussion is related to defining death, IMO.