Author Topic: Please Define Death  (Read 11653 times)

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se7engames

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Please Define Death
« on: July 31, 2012, 05:40:20 AM »
Hello all!

Are there any articles on tentmaker.org that actually define what death is?

I found this article http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restofall5.htm

But it mainly talks about death not being annihilation. Basically, i'm wondering what is tentmaker's view on death? What immediately happens to the believer and the unbeliever immediately upon death in this age?

thanks!
Se7engames

Offline jugghead

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 08:00:25 AM »
I ask that same question early on in my walk, i could not find a satisfactory explanation from among men, so I brought it before God.

This is my understanding of death, it is the place of darkness, which by Christ definition of being blind as a lack of understanding in Matthew 15:14-16, we suffer from death in our lack of understanding of the truth, the truth about who God is, that being love, which from love stems compassion and forgiveness.

We suffer from death in that we lack a complete understanding of the compassion and forgiveness of God. We bury ourselves in a bunch of facts about the Bible, but we lack the understanding of it, and by that we lack the wisdom of God, and by that we cannot see the heart of God, that which is Christ, His heart of compassion.

In short, we suffer from death by not seeing who God truly is.

Our course, this is only my opinion.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 12:53:52 PM »

The following link is to an exposition of death (and judgement).

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html



This is an outline of what is there...

Death and Judgment
            What Is The Soul?
            What Is Death?
            The Soul and the Unseen
            The Gehenna of Fire
            The Judgment of the Nations
            Eonian Fire and Judging
            The Lake of Fire
            A Resurrection of Judging
            Judgment and Death
            The Revelation of God's Just Judgment
            The Repudiation of Grace
            Challenges to God's Deity
            Crucial Questions About Resurrection
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 11:31:45 PM »
This sounds oversimplified and maybe even a little trite.
I'm not trying to be funny here and the more you think
about this, the more profound it might seem to you.

"Death is the opposite of life"
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 12:28:04 AM »
To be carnally minded is death, which is the opposite of life in the spirit as Ded has said.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 04:54:00 AM »
Kinda where I took my name from when I started using it 15 years ago in other places.

"Dead to the World, but alive to Christ."
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

se7engames

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 06:57:20 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys!

Tentmaker's basic stance on the definition of what death is, comes from the concordant.org expositions? Namely the ones listed by reFORMer?

And from what I gather from the expositions is that....

death = unconciousness. Which is why dead people are reffered to as "sleeping" in the Word.

So basically what happens when EVERYONE (believers and unbelievers) dies is that they become unconcious... fall asleep. Their body goes back to the ground from which it came and their spirit goes back to God from which it came. However, their spirit is unconcious, not aware. Human's are "alive" when a spirit and body come together and create a living soul that can interact with the environment.

This is great stuff!

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 07:14:52 AM »
que (cue?) soul sleep debate   :laughing7:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 07:32:59 AM by redhotmagma »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 07:19:32 AM »
 :wink1:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 07:22:52 AM »
the laugh by RHM and wink from me is because there's multiple opinions on this.  As one of my TV heroes, Gomer used to say, "surprise, surprise, surprise"!

Which leads me to a thought I had today and a topic I want to start.  Don't worry, it will be a "positive" thread, but the title will be, "What A Mess".  :)
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

se7engames

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 08:08:34 AM »
Thanks jabcat, I didn't know it was a topic of multiple opinions. I guess that's why I was wondering what is tentmaker's overall opinion on the subject.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 11:08:13 AM »
Oh, you're welcome.  I'd say there's probably not an "official" opinion.  I believe GaryA. believes those deceased who were spiritually reborn in this life, are already active somehow, being at use in the kingdom.  I don't know if he believes they are already shepherding lost souls in, in their "realm of the next age", or exactly what.  But however it is exactly, I don't believe he believes in soul sleep.  As far as other members, some believe in soul sleep, some believe in the "great cloud of witnesses that are "surrounding and cheering us on", while some believe there is a temporary holding place until judgment - whew! - while some believe judgment is immediate upon death and so that's "settled" for already for the dead.  Aaaannndddd....some believe THIS life is the judgment, so when this body of flesh is done, everything is immediately made new.  I'm sure I've missed some.    :happygrin:

Soooooooo, lol.  I'd suggest reading POVs, studying, praying to God for guidance and revelation, and don't get discouraged.  Look to the Rock.  He is our Salvation! 

Blessings, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

se7engames

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 02:43:52 AM »
Awesome! Thanks for the information!!  What are POV's?

Has there been any in depth, good forum discussions here at tentmaker for or against soul sleep?

Thanks again!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 04:02:42 AM »
(P) point  (O) of (V) view
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Sherman

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 04:40:36 AM »
I think death at it's most basic means "to cease from life".  As with most other words, the particular meaning of the author is determined by context.  When speaking of death in this life, it means for one's body to cease from exibiting any evidence of life - heart beat, breath, and today that includes any evidence of a functioning brain (brain dead).  "Death" does not necessarily speak to what happens to a person's soul and/or spirit once the body has ceased to exibit life. 

And from another perspective, death speaks of separation.  In the death of a relationship, there is a separation between the parties making up the relationship. When thinking of the death of Adam and Eve due to sin, I think this is the death that they experienced, a break in their relationship with God, the source of life.  A friend (athiest who was wanting to show error in my beliefs) once challenged me on Adam and Eve continuing to "live" for hundreds of years after they sinned when scripture said that in the day they sinned they would surely die.  I thought about it for a moment, reached down and pulled a clump of grass from the sand, handed it to him and said, "This grass is now dead, though it continues to live, because it is separated from its source of life." 

What happens to a person when he/she dies?  Well, that's debatable.  I tend to believe that when we die, cease from physical life, we are liberated from these physical bodies and come into the full reality of our spiritual bodies, much as a catapilar if liberated from it's worm form and transformed, given a new body, much more beautiful than the first body.  In the process of death we experience judgment and it burns the hell out of us, liberating us fully from our flesh, our selfishness and evil, fitting us completely for relationship with God.  But I could be wrong!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 08:30:31 AM by Sherman »

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 01:47:09 PM »
It was so late for me when I posted the answer from Concordant Publishing I didn't try to explain.  They have a lot of Scripture to offer.  I like very much that they at least attempt to "confine their/your expression of faith to the actual words God chose to make His revelation known."  The Word itself is a very good place to start.  I don't see death quite the way they teach it however.  I figured the discussion would ensue.  I don't think people have very good knowledge about whatever was BEFORE we found ourselves manifested here either.  Anyway, I just offered to you a certain variety of cooks.

There's nothing wrong getting trained how to make a French Omelette from a French Chef.  It's also very good to learn how to make Juevos Rancheros.  Then there is how to make the Chinese 100 Year Old Egg. The broader your experience with actual egg preparation, the greater your potential for original contribution.  Of Course you have to begin with an actual egg, as well as to stay with eggs, rather than change to things like stones, for instance.  The purpose is to have some friends drop in to fellowship over what you cook up for them.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 02:17:58 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

se7engames

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2012, 09:36:22 PM »
Excellent, reFORMer. I love the egg analogy :)

Thank you all for such excellent information. I'm going to start a new thread (maybe it's been done before) on what other websites that you have found helpful that are similar to tentmaker.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 07:34:10 AM »
Look back in Genesis at the creation of Adam, for that is foundational.  After God made the body out of the dust of the ground, it was not quite Adam yet - it was not yet alive.  Then God breathed into the body the breath/spirit of Life, and Adam became a living soul.  At his death, Adam's breath/spirit stopped or departed, and he became non-living again, or dead.

On the other hand, the only certain sign of death (in the medical sense) is decomposition - you know, dust to dust, with a very messy in-between. 
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 07:59:22 AM »
:)  Lazarus, this ought'a be meaningful to you.

I was just reading a couple of days ago when that other Lazarus was in the tomb.  Jesus told them to open the tomb, and one of the ladies said "he's been in the tomb for 4 days, he'll stink".  (Jesus had said he was just sleeping).  Well, we know the rest of the story.  So still the mystery.  Was Lazarus dead?  I think so - but is it truly just sleeping, because just the body's dead and the spirit's alive somewhere?   :Chinscratch:   We do know that Jesus holds the keys.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 03:57:54 PM »
Jesus said, "If I lay down my life I have power to take it up again."  How could He do this without being in a spirit form coming at it from the otherside of this cosmos (which many refer to as the otherside of this veil?)

2 Corinthians 12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Maybe Paul alludes to two different bodies, one's own individual body and being a member of the body of Christ.  Whether or not one's own body is in view with both mentions, it seems He believes in experiencing things as if one had some resemblance to a soulical function outside the body.  There are lists of Scripture in Watchman Nee's book The Spiritual Man that speak of the spirit functioning in just about any way the soul can function.  Scripture knows there is a mind of the spirit and a fleshly or carnal mind.

1 Peter 317--46...
[17] For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. [18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. [21] The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: [22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:1-22 KJV) 
[1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [2] That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [3] For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: [4] Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]: [5] Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. [6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

In the 2nd chapter of Jonah he dies and goes to hell (sheol) for ever (according to the KJV, though it was only 3 days) and it is from there he remembered his vow.  There he prayed.  From there God heard and answered, making the big fish vomit him out onto dry land.  I know someone who came to believe in the Salvation of all because of believing what is written in this one chapter.

Then there is the story of Lazarus.  While it is just fine to understand it as a parable, that doesn't invalidate it as saying on a natural level whatever it says.  Why should we think Jesus would mislead us by speaking of Abraham, Dives and Lazarus experiencing their environment, being conscious and carrying on a conversation with each other if this was impossible and a misrepresentation of the true state of affairs when we die?

As Solomon said there is no knowledge or praise in (is it sheol or the other Hebrew word meaning "the grave?") can be resolved by the fact the body (which also is you) has no such experience any more.

Demons, possibly in a lower dimension, seek to escape dryness (?) by dwelling in bodies again.

If we sleep here I don't know any definite reason why we wouldn't also sleep during certain intervals when out of the body until resurrection.  Some think the spirit doesn't sleep; but that only seems intimated by certain Scriptures, not clearly said.  It is written that the spirit can faint. 

One opinion I think is true, whatever we are in a death state, it cannot be that it is just like being alive, being embodied.  Why then would God not keep us there rather than go to all the trouble of bringing forth an incorruptible physical immortality?  He calls it the expectation of all creation. 



(I'm not looking up every reference for y'all at this time, OK?)_
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 04:30:31 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2012, 01:28:06 AM »
:)  Lazarus, this ought'a be meaningful to you.

I was just reading a couple of days ago when that other Lazarus was in the tomb.  Jesus told them to open the tomb, and one of the ladies said "he's been in the tomb for 4 days, he'll stink".  (Jesus had said he was just sleeping).  Well, we know the rest of the story.  So still the mystery.  Was Lazarus dead?  I think so - but is it truly just sleeping, because just the body's dead and the spirit's alive somewhere?   :Chinscratch:   We do know that Jesus holds the keys.

Right!  Look a little deeper into the story - as Jesus and His disciples were on the way to Bethany, Jesus told His disciples that Lazarus was sleeping.  Well, the disciples had heard that Lazarus was sick, so they were confused.  Jesus then said PLAINLY that Lazarus was dead.  Lazarus' spirit (breath) had returned to the Father.  I see that spirit/breath (same word in Hebrew and in Greek) as a sort of lifeforce, since we are not immortal and alive somewhere after death.  I think the concept of the immortality of the soul is one of the foundations of the hellfire doctrine.  When you're dead, you're dead, otherwise God would have had a different warning for Adam and Eve about that certain tree...
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2012, 08:37:38 AM »
Man is spirit, soul and body --a trinity.  God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit didn't all  die when Jesus the Son died.  Why should the entire man be thought to die when the body dies.  Even without dying, Elijah went out (of his body) in the spirit and saw his servant catching up to Naaman the Syrian who he'd healed of leprosy.  His servant was begging the gifts off of Naaman that he'd offered Elijah.  This is another illustration of living as a spirit apart from a body.

I don't believe in the immortality of the soul either.  Scripture definitely says, "The soul that sins, it shall die."
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Ross

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2012, 06:25:30 PM »
Little key seems to be what is said to the Thessalonians:
1 Thess 4;16,17 " Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command,
with a chief messenger's voice
and with a trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
after that, we the livng who are left, shall be caught away in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air;
and thus shall we be evermore with the Lord."

* The dead "in Christ" seems to be a statement. If people are already there how will they rise when Christ comes?
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2012, 10:30:46 PM »
There is no time outside of the space-time continuum.  We will all wake up at the resurrection at the same time, but to each one it will be just like you blinked, or maybe had a quick nod off while in this realm.

Offline Molly

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Re: Please Define Death
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2012, 12:47:45 AM »
Little key seems to be what is said to the Thessalonians:
1 Thess 4;16,17 " Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command,
with a chief messenger's voice
and with a trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
after that, we the livng who are left, shall be caught away in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air;
and thus shall we be evermore with the Lord."

* The dead "in Christ" seems to be a statement. If people are already there how will they rise when Christ comes?

I think this group that he is talking about here, they are alive with Christ, but the body is dead and in the grave.  So 'the dead in Christ' will rise, means they will 'stand up' [in their resurrected, and glorified, bodies].