Author Topic: On the Bible and Punishment  (Read 4351 times)

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Offline CHB

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2012, 06:20:33 PM »
Have been really thinking about this and asking God to show me the why as to this and suddenly it came to me that we are being made in God's image, not that we are already mind you.

If we are being made in the image of God then we are going to have his characteristicts such as anger, sadness, happy, all of the emotions that God has. Only thing is we haven't learned how to use these things properly yet. God knows how to use all of these things for the good of mankind, we don't but we are learning through God, man, and the enviorment.

When God is sad, angry, he always uses these things for good, we do not. It might not seem that God is using them for good at the time but knowing how all will end and reading the Bible, all things will eventually work out for the good of all. Joseph, Jesus, comes to mind and actually all people. When all is said and done we will know that when we are angry we won't want to go out and shoot somebody. When we are sad we will be able to deal with it, without antidepressants. Could it be that by God showing his emotions is one way of teaching man how to use them for good, even though we are not there yet? 

Just some thoughts I was having. I still think there are things we don't understand abut this.

CHB

deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2012, 07:49:11 PM »
Good points, CHB.  I, too, cannot fathom God having made a mistake and being perplexed by it.  It sounds like God's Human Being Production Factory has a worse recall rate than the Edsel, or the Toyota Camry.  :-)

Let's leave the wicked humans aside. Did he really have to drown kittens and bunny rabbits, too?  Were they all wicked as well?


Offline Cardinal

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2012, 09:11:05 PM »
 :cloud9: He had to destroy all unrighteous (uncovered) flesh so the Nephilim wouldn't have a place to lodge. When Jesus cast the legion into the swine, even the swine knew how to be rid of them. My  :2c:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2012, 09:15:56 PM »
:cloud9: He had to destroy all unrighteous (uncovered) flesh so the Nephilim wouldn't have a place to lodge. When Jesus cast the legion into the swine, even the swine knew how to be rid of them. My  :2c:
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Offline thinktank

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2012, 09:25:41 PM »
Good points, CHB.  I, too, cannot fathom God having made a mistake and being perplexed by it.  It sounds like God's Human Being Production Factory has a worse recall rate than the Edsel, or the Toyota Camry.  :-)

Let's leave the wicked humans aside. Did he really have to drown kittens and bunny rabbits, too?  Were they all wicked as well?




~He saved them in the ark. Sometimes I wish he let the kittys die though, with all these woman and their cats.
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deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2012, 09:46:16 PM »
I have lots of questions from those last couple of responses:

1. Where does it say that the Nephilim would lodge in all uncovered flesh? 

2. Does that uncovered flesh include the flesh of cats, dogs, birds?  Worms?  Fleas? Amoeba?

3. Why didn't God just destroy the Nephilim instead?

Offline Cardinal

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2012, 10:04:00 PM »

~He saved them in the ark. Sometimes I wish he let the kittys die though, with all these woman and their cats.
 :icon_joker:

 :cloud9: PERISH the thought..... :winkgrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2012, 10:59:49 PM »
Sometimes I get so focused on my questions I can't see (or don't accept) the answers. 

Offline jabcat

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2012, 03:22:52 AM »
I was tempted to lock this thread until everyone reported in that they'd read this link  :laughing7:.

Very seriously, this is a REALLY good look at this topic.  Contains some priceless nuggets.   :thumbsup:

5 minutes, PLEASE READ!!   :bigGrin:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/is_old_testament_really_cruel_or_does_hellfire_make_it_look_that_way_9868.msg126010.html#msg126010

deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2012, 03:32:44 AM »
I've taken your suggestion, jabcat, and I've read the link that you recommended.  Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, the main points I've gotten from it are:

1. Jews are more likely than Christians, on the whole, to embrace the Old Testament, yet they are often more Christlike than the Christians are.

2. The Bible does not state that God punishes people eternally.

there are other points made as well, but I'll respond to these two, for openers:

1. Sure, it is entirely possible that any group may be more Christlike than any other group. Jews more so than Christians, Muslims more so than Jews, Bah'ais more so than Muslims, atheists, more so than Bah'ais, etc.  But adherence to the Old Testament does not necessarily correlate to being Christlike, anymore than a white coif is what makes a nun spiritual.

2. Yes, agreed. The bible does not state that God punishes people eternally.  But the literal Bible's God is still a "bad guy" (mind you, I don't think the ACTUAL God is a bad guy, I think the ACTUAL God is love and goodness personified).  After all, Hitler didn't punish people eternally either, but he was still a bad guy.


Offline thinktank

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2012, 03:59:24 AM »
I was tempted to lock this thread until everyone reported in that they'd read this link  :laughing7:.

Very seriously, this is a REALLY good look at this topic.  Contains some priceless nuggets.   :thumbsup:

5 minutes, PLEASE READ!!   :bigGrin:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/is_old_testament_really_cruel_or_does_hellfire_make_it_look_that_way_9868.msg126010.html#msg126010


Jab has turned to the dark side. I was only joking about the cats, Jabcat prince of the cats!


Offline jabcat

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2012, 04:10:40 AM »
TT, wat'chu talkin' bout with that dark side stuff? :punish:   I don't really like cats.. the "cat" part of my name is from back in the day, a nickname someone called me when I was a little kid...you know, "cat", as in "cool cat"... :laughing7:   Let's don't take it literally.  If we did I guess I'd be poking at cats, you know, "jabbing" them.   :mblush:

_____________________________

"But adherence to the Old Testament does not necessarily correlate to being Christlike..."

agreed with that

As far as "the literal Bible God is a bad guy", even regardless of how much was see as literal or otherwise, we'd still probably not really "get" it or "like" it all, because IMO, as long as we're in this life, there's going to be the carnal side of us that battles the spiritual; and that can be used of satan to distract us and hold us back from a true or deeper relationship with God. There's been quite a bit shared already about our limited perspective, our minds not being able to comprehend God very much at all; that scripture tells us 1) to believe, trust, and humble ourselves before Him 2) that He has not asked us to be His counselor 3) He asks where were we [what did we have to do with it] when He created things 4) and that we really can't know the mind of God [I believe this means in-depth, to fully understand all His reasons and how/why He does things].  We can know some things about Him, "hear" His voice, etc., but still, WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY.  So I can sit around and question HIM, doubt the scriptures that HE says are breathed by Himself, even argue with Him, but the bottom line is, as stated earlier, I believe I need to go to Him and ask Him for understanding, revelation, and the grace to just humbly believe Him.

As far as this part,  ..the literal Bible's God..",  I'd like to address that, and some of the other points in the linked thread (thanks for reading it :)  by quoting a post that the site owner, Gary Amirault made a while back during one of these similar discussions.  Sometimes others can say it better - (I've already posted several of my own thoughts in this thread) - and Gary's post came to mind just a minute ago.  He makes the point about the Bible being spiritual, how much is literal, allegorical, etc., which I think meets your point above in an interesting way.  Hope this helps. 

"Now regarding the many verses of the Bible you quoted that do not make sense to you if God is truly a loving God. There are many who have advocated things like ________ suggested, lay the blame for these gross appearing verses to the "lying pen of the Scribes." I don't think this works for a number of reasons and I can't get into much of what I'd like to say to you because it truly fills a book which I've been developing in my mind for a long time.

The prophets who wrote the Law and the prophets did not understand what they were writing. Some asked to look into the words, but most were not allowed understanding. Moses was told when he set up the Mosaic tabernacle and seemingly bizarre sacrificial system to be careful and make everything exactly to the pattern because it was patterned after heavenly things. So the law was a shadow, it was NOT reality. Children are afraid of shadows , they often see things that aren't really there. Some say thrown out the shadowy scriptures because they are simply too gross.  That's a big mistake. I'm not saying come UNDER the shadow of the law, we are not under law but grace, but we can learn from the law and theprophets which point to a higher reality.

Some say, all the O.T. are simply myths borrowed from the Egyptians or the Babylonians and modified to fit the Jews. I've read many books and articles on documentary hypothesis, JEPD theory, etc. I've watched many documentaries and videos saying Christianity and Judaism is based upon ancient myths, that we shouldn't really take the scriptures, especially the O.T. as divine.  Believe me, I have in my library much material (and I read it) that casts a very dark shadow over the Bible, especially portions of the Bible that speak of genocide, strange rituals like stoning your rebellious children, etc. But over the years God has given me much light and understanding of parts of the Bible that seemed at first to be just ridiculous and barbaric stuff. Many want to attribute what they don't understand  to the "lying pen of the scribes." I think that's a mistake too. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law (first five books of the Bible) would be removed from the law till all things be fulfilled.

On the road to Emaus after the crucifixion, were two of Jesus' disciples quite discouraged. Jesus appeared to them but was not recognized. (that's important). He then explained to them the crucifixion in the light of the law and the prophets. He opened to them understanding. Well these disciples obviously KNEW the scriptures. They probably had large chunks memorized, but they did not truly see them in the light of revelation. When He explained things their hearts were burning. When Jesus broke the bread, their eyes were opened.  ________, many Christians and universalists at boards like EU, WU and CU are saying one can throw out from the Bible what doesn't make sense or does not conform to one's concept of a loving god. Folks are saying to just go by your conscience or inner voice and decide for yourself what scriptures are divine and what aren't. They are calling Kaballah and Zoar (Jewish mysticism) as divine as the Bible. They are mixing all kinds of nonsense with whatever part of the Bible they have decided they want to embrace and making customized religions after their own carnal minds. I've seen many Christians who have embraced universalism go down this path and its end is not enlightenment.

Yes, on the mount of transfiguration the voice said "This is my beloved Son, hear HIM" and Moses and Elijah faded away in this VISION. Yes, the law and prophets (shadow) must give way to the LIVING WORD of the Son of God. But that doesn't mean the Law and prophets didn't serve a purpose in God's plan. One cannot understand the book of Revelation without understanding the O.T. because Revelation quotes the O.T. over 200 times.

Look, those who wrote the O.T. didn't understand what they were writing, the 12 apostles who knew Jesus after the flesh didn't understand Moses and the prophets even though they felt they kept Moses law. It wasn't until Paul who did NOT know Jesus after the flesh but after the spirit that the light of the law and prophets began to break open. Paul saw allegories where children saw literally. Hagar and her son was an allegory of the Law. CAST OUT Hagar and her son (the law) and see the promise. The letter kills but the spirit makes alive. Paul began to explain the law and Moses in an entirely new light. The law was made not to help one to be righteous, it was made to make sin even MORE sinful. Those who were under the law never really comprehended the purpose of the law. And neither do those today who want to throw out the passages of the O.T. that seem barbaric and unloving.  Under the law, God was an outside entity to be feared. A God of the outside that is sensed through a carnal mind through the five imperfect senses of the body will ALWAYS see God through fear. Our natural minds are programmed biologically to lie. It cannot comprehend God regardless of how the Bible is written. So to the degree that we are "natural" (and believe me Christians including universalists) are far more "natural" in their understanding of God and the Scriptures than they care to see, one cannot truly see or understand God. The Scriptures are spiritual.

Yes, Jesus said, "you have heard it said…." (Moses) but I say to you." Yes, there is a NEW commandment, a NEW law. "As I have loved you, love one another." It's a higher law, the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus." We are not to serve the Mosaic law, but when we see the law and prophets through the Revelation of Jesus' spirit, the law will serve us in seeing what the pattern was pointing to. The shadow of the law and prophets still has much to teach us. And to thrown it out because the veil of Moses is still over one's eyes is foolishness. We are not to come UNDER the Mosaic law, for it will blind us. But when we look at the Mosaic Law from above we gain wisdom.
The O.T. was written in Hebrew a highly exaggerative language which is very different from English.  Bullinger lists over 200 different types of figures of speech in the Bible with thousands of examples. Unfortunately, we have been taught to read the Bible literally. Big mistake.

Look, I can't take any more time here, I've got to get back to my projects I have to finish today. I'll gladly talk personally to you...about textual criticism and the dangers of going down the path of throwing out stuff in the bible that doesn't suit your personality, your lifestyle, or education or whatever. I know where that mentality leads and I don't think it's helpful or healthy. We purposely do not allow threads on this board on that discussion on the topic of textual criticism because I know the food fights that ensue. I really do understand those who feel they have a right and obligation to throw out the parts of the bible they do not like, I've read their posts, I've spend a lot of time dialoging with them, I've read many books supporting the idea of relegating parts of the O.T. to myths and superstitions but believe they are wrong because God has given me a lot of light on verses that used to choke me in the past that now make a lot of sense to me.

God has a plan, a blueprint. It's hidden in the Bible. For those who can read God's language of symbols, the blueprint makes perfect sense. A blueprint usually has many pages to it each page dealing with a different aspect of a house. One page may be plumbing, one electrical, one walls, one for the first floor, one for the second, one for the foundation. Each one has language and symbols for that page that a technician familiar with that trade can understand. Just because someone cannot understand the symbols and diagrams on a particular page (or a particular covenant) that deals with electricity doesn't give them the right to throw out that page. THAT is what is being proposed by many who post on some universalist discussion boards. Because they read carnally and are wise in their own eyes, they throw out pages of God's precious blueprint and encourage babes in Christ to do the same. This is WRONG. And that kind of teaching will not be tolerated here at Tentmaker because it is harmful. These discussion boards are not set up to discuss anything and everything. It's not set up to be a chit-chat site. It's purpose is to help people understand that Jesus will save all mankind and that the Bible teaches that. The focus on this discussion board is universal salvation through Jesus Christ. It is biblical. That's it. We don't deal with thousands of other subjects some of which cause BIG food fights. Textual Criticism is one of those big food fight topics.

I want you to know, I've been to the skeptics, atheist, secular humanist pages that feature the kind of verses you presented in your list. I've engaged them in conversation. I know their mind. I was an atheist for many years. They cannot understand where I am coming from because they do not have the Holy Spirit. The Bible is foolishness to them, Old AND New Testament. I understand that. But there is something inside of me that is bigger than me, bigger than my understanding, bigger than all the doubts and fears of this realm. It is bigger than my understanding or lack of understanding of the Bible. Do not throw out what you do not understand. Cry out for understanding. The Spirit of Truth sent by Jesus to give you what belongs to Jesus and to yourself, will give understanding in due season. Patience has its virtue, but children, whether in the natural or spirit lack it.

I am writing this, not knowing whether you have been "born from above," or baptized in His Spirit. Without this probably even what I've written will not make sense. "You must be born from above. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit." "My words are Spirit and truth." If one does not have  "ears to hear" then the bible and everything I've said is foolishness.

Well, like I said, __________ and _________, I'll gladly try to help with understanding this subject. But from past experience, it is not helpful from those who come to this board for help to open up a discussion on this topic here. It will draw people with an agenda and it will detract from the main purpose of this discussion forum. Thanks, peace and love. Gary Amirault, the one responsible before God for what goes on here."

« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 04:41:33 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2012, 02:38:29 PM »
I agree with the patterns, but disagree with:
Quote
Moses was told when he set up the Mosaic tabernacle and seemingly bizarre sacrificial system to be careful and make everything exactly to the pattern because it was patterned after heavenly things. So the law was a shadow, it was NOT reality. Children are afraid of shadows , they often see things that aren't really there. Some say thrown out the shadowy scriptures because they are simply too gross.  That's a big mistake. I'm not saying come UNDER the shadow of the law, we are not under law but grace, but we can learn from the law and theprophets which point to a higher reality.

Look at it like a dream. If in my dream my hands are cut of that's just a bad dream. But if i wake up without hands it's no longer just a dream but reality.
So I don't agree with Gary that patterns/shadows aren't reality. For example the wars were literal events. I see no difference bewteen being murdered under the law or grace.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2012, 04:45:42 PM »
Hi jabcat,

Thanks for a very thoughtful and thought-provoking response.  It's a shame about the "food fights" to which you refer on threads about textual criticism, or anything else. If folks could just begin with the premise that NONE of us actually knows, with certainty, anything about God or the Bible, then maybe everyone could "play nice."   :grin:

That said, it sounds from what you wrote that the Bible is a big riddle.  Up really means down, red really means blue, left really means right, punishment really means love, death really means life....  And if it is a riddle, indeed, once has to wonder why God put it there, and why after 2000 years we remain baffled as to its true meaning.

Now, if you have some insight about what the true meaning is, I'd be very interested to hear it.  The closest I've seen to an interpretation that, IF TRUE, would be consistent with a Heavenly Father who is Pure Love, is that of Emanuel Swedenborg.  Though Swedenborg's views somewhat contradict those of Universalists, as Universalists believe that everyone is reconciled with God, whereas Swedenborgians believe that there is a Hell (not with literal fire, but a place different from Heaven),and the door there is locked - but from the inside     

Offline jabcat

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2012, 07:50:05 PM »
Hi deances, thanks, and you're welcome :)

Well, of course, what you've presented is a huge question.  There are others here with better insight into this than me, maybe they'll weigh in as well (as long as we can keep this as honest exploration rather than just total textual criticism/trashing the scrips.)

I'll have a little to say now, and hopefully more, later tonight.  My thoughts now will be sort of bullet points/thinking out loud/an outline sketch.

God obviously wanted us to know some.  He said He would preserve His Word for us, and He has.  There's plenty there for us to know Him, know Him better, and to serve as "light unto our path".  He also apparently didn't want us to know everything, or we wouldn't a) be in various degrees of being veiled b) looking through a glass darkly and c) would have a translation that was perfect from the originals, and somehow miraculously able to be perfectly understood in its every nuance, by all.   That's obviously not the case, so then I personally have to believe that's in God's plan for us.  Which leaves me with this;  a) He has a perfect reason for all He does b) we aren't able to fully understand it c) He will reveal it fully to us in due season (probably the next age) and D) perhaps the end result and main reason is, He wants us to trust Him.  Not our own wisdom, knowledge, puffed up in our own ability;  thinking it's up to ME how God operates, what of Him I will accept or reject, in essence, having become His advisor.  I believe there's an humbling effect to that, in that if I don't think I know everything, and there's SomeOne so vastly, hugely "bigger" than I, then if I submit to Him, learn to not struggle with Him and accept His leadership as a sheep to a Shepherd, then I'm in the place where He wants us, as His children, to be.  I believe when we're in that place, then as we seek Him, He does show us more, reveal the things to us HE wants us to know and experience. 

We are to "have the mind of Christ", "study to show ourselves approved", etc., but again, our looking through a glass darkly, IMO, is just one more piece of His purpose of bringing us to live in HIS wisdom and will, not ours.

In the end, I believe He wants us to believe, love, and trust Him - not just figure Him out.

I was thinking earlier this morning about this verse;

Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!  Romans 11:33

« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 08:18:43 PM by jabcat »

deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2012, 09:41:29 PM »
Thanks again, jabcat.

And once again, I agree with a great deal of what you write, particularly that God has lessons for us to learn, whose true meanings and motives probably will not be revealed until the next lifetime.

Part of the interest I have in ascertaining answers to the question I often ask of people: why do you believe that the Bible is authoritative?   is correlating what people think the answers ARE to what people WOULD LIKE THE ANSWERS TO BE.  I call it my Surgeon and Brown Chair analogy:

John was about to have life-saving surgery that he decided to have after consulting with Dr. Brown, a surgeon in whom John has the utmost confidence.  A few minutes before surgery, John's wife, Mary, enters the room and makes two announcements:

ANNOUNCEMENT A:  "John, I've done a lot of research and found out Dr. Brown is a fraud. He never even went to medical school. He is a mental patient that has escaped from the institution and is only pretending to be a doctor!"

ANNOUNCEMENT B: "All this time I thought the chair in Dr. Brown's waiting room was black leather. It turns out it's really not black - it is a dark shade of brown!"

Regarding Announcement A, John probably HOPES THE INFORMATION is not true. If it is true, then that means John will cancel the surgery and go back to square one: trying to find a competent surgeon to perform this difficult operation.

Regarding Announcement B: Whether the color of Dr. Brown's leather chair is black or brown, WHO CARES?  It makes no difference in John's life, and so whether the information is true or not, it doesn't really matter.

Now, let's turn to two issues:  GOD (the existence of God) and the BIBLE (whether the Bible is really God's Word).  I think we can all agree that as human beings, while we may have strong beliefs about both, we can't really be 100% sure of either.

That said, how do you all feel about each topic?  Do you HOPE it is true, or is it more like WHO CARES one way or the other?

As for God, I HOPE it's true. I HOPE there is a kind, caring, Heavenly Father who personifies love and goodness, and I look forward to the boundless joy that comes with knowing HIM and being around Him.

As for the Bible, my personal feeling is - WHO CARES?  I don't need a manual to tell me who God is and how HE wants me to behave. I pray to Him and ask Him to guide me in that path every day.  So, even if all the religious leaders throughout the world came forward tomorrow and said: "Okay, we admit it, we know the Bible is a hoax and we've been peddling this charade for centuries," my personal attitude would be:  Big deal. As it would do NOTHING to shake my faith in God.

So, I'm curious. On the issues of God and the Bible, where do you stand?  I HOPE IT'S TRUE, or WHO CARES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER?




Offline Molly

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2012, 10:15:29 PM »
I see the Bible as a personal message from my Creator to me.

Therefore, as I read it, I trust that I will know as much as he wants me to know.



John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.


I hope to be called 'friend' some day.


Offline Molly

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deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2012, 10:38:06 PM »
Ok, Molly, that sounds like an "I hope that the Bible is God's word is true," as opposed to "I wouldn't care one way or the other."

I suppose, in retrospect, if the answer to the second question: Do you HOPE that the Bible is the Word of God is true, is YES, I DO HOPE THAT, then that answers the first question, which is: Do you HOPE that it is true that God exists?

 :grin:

Offline Molly

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2012, 10:41:39 PM »
What?  No, I was taking the third option.

Actually, right now I hope God finds my credit card before tomorrow, otherwise I won't have anything to eat.

Send up a prayer for me, will you?  lol

deances

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2012, 10:48:59 PM »
I just did, Molly.  Prayed for you to find your credit card.  Hope it helps!   :grin:

Maybe I rephrased the question incorrectly, but the way I meant it, there isn't a third option. It's like saying: you are a human being, or you are not a human being.  if you say: "I am an antelope," then that's not a third option. That is part of: "I am not a human being."

It seems to me that if you consider the Bible to be God's message to you, and since (I presume) you love God and want to please Him, then it seems like you HOPE that your assumption that the Bible is indeed God's message to you is true.

An easy example of what you probably don't care about, is whether the color of Jesus' eyes was light-brown or dark-brown.  That would probably fall into the I DON'T REALLY CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER category.

So, all I'm asking, regarding the Bible (as opposed to regarding the existence of God), do you HOPE it is really the Word of God, or wouldn't you care one way or the other if God left us no God-breathed, God-inspired written message whatsoever?


Offline jabcat

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2012, 12:16:41 AM »
My answer is, it became very personal when I tried to wander away from it.  If one knows me very well, I don't often say "God told me";  for one reason, although I do believe we can hear His voice, I believe we also are vulnerable to hearing our own voice and attributing it to God.  However, in this case, it was very clear, direct, and came with strong conviction that put me on my knees.  I didn't have to guess or hope, God let me know. 

My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens.  In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.   

IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh.  As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.

John 6:63 Jesus said "…..the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".

John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.

Scripture is the written Word of God - John 14:23 JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words"

Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".


Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired.  God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word.  Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh.  But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word.  They operate in tandem.  They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.

I later inquired (again) of God about this topic.  He immediately let me know He had already let me know.  I went to the written Word.  These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).

I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard
         2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
           :14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you

Mathew 13:18-22  Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22;  "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.


Mt. 15:3  "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition?  ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."

Rev. 3:8  You have kept my Word and you haven't disowned my name ("Yesu")

John 1:14 The Word became flesh

John 8:31  Then Yesu was saying..."if you stay in My Word, you are truly my students"
          37  "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"

John 17:6,8  "I made your Name apparent...they have kept Your Word.  Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."

"Well seen! I too watch over My Word to see it fulfilled" (Jer. 1:11-12).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 12:31:31 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2012, 12:18:42 AM »
Thanks for the prayer, Deances!

I guess I can't say 'I hope" it is the word of God because that would imply that there is a possibilitiy in my mind that it isn't.

And, that possibility never enters my mind.

As with most letters I receive, I assume the writer is who he says he is.  I am focused on the information in the letter, not whether it's a forgery or fraudulent.

It just never enters my mind.  And, I read the Bible every day.

I just want to see what God will show me today.

Maybe that's faith?

Offline CHB

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Re: On the Bible and Punishment
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2012, 01:03:20 AM »
The Bibles we have today I know have misinterpretations in them but I also know that the original words that were given to the apostles and prophets were from God. If I didn't believe this I probably would be an atheist. I also believe that the Bible with all of it's misinterpretations was planned by God.

Am not trying to be a smart alec but why all of the questions as to what we believe about God and the Bible? Why do you care what we believe? Every one has to answer for themselves.

CHB