My God, my God

[Cardinal]

  I can see I didn't explain well enough. The childlike faith comes from HIM, it is the measure of faith He gives all men to receive Him. Receiving Him is not only a one time salvation experience; receiving ANYTHING from the Spirit, is receiving HIM. Blessings....

[reFORMer]

(John 3:34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE UNTO HIM.

(Rom. 12:3) Last part of verse. according as God hath DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.

CHB

(John 3:34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE UNTO HIM.  These last words are in italics in the KJV because they have been added by the translators.  "Where ever there is any of God, there is all of God."  He gives us His Spirit, Who is Himself God.  It is GOD that is given.    He is present, not just a part of Him, which would be in a measure.

What "the measure of faith" is that is given to every human is dependant on the Word of God expressed to every human, for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.  Christ is the Word made flesh.  He is what is given to all humanity, not an arm or a leg, which would be a part, but, He is Himself the gift given.

The Eclessia, the "called-out", is summoned by the Word Who is expressed by the Father.  Christ is the Measure, the "form" of God.  The extent to which any of us are hearing that Word is what we may speak of as our calling.  Paul was called to be an apostle and teacher of the nations.  The degree to which we are available to Him is the measure of our maturity.  God's purpose for each of us is to mature, "Till we ALL come...unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13)  "The disciple, when he is finished, will be like his master."

[firstborn888]

Keep in mind that Jesus quoted word for word. Ps. 22:2 "Psalm 22:2 "My God, my God, why have You abandoned me; why so far from delivering me and my anguished roaring?"

Read the entire psalm - it is a picture of the crucifixion scene. Jesus was not crying out in His God-ness but FOR all humanity.

Two things are clear to me:

1. (Obviously) Jesus was NOT forsaken.

2. The statement wasn't even ABOUT whether Jesus was actually forsaken or not. 

[eaglesway]

Hi peacemaker

I prefer scripture references to confident assertions. I am open to ideas, but eventually the scriptures speak to me the loudest.

 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
(2Co 5:21)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(Heb 2:9)

I am open to instruction and I am not dogmatic about much of anything, but I do require that  insights be found witnessed in scripture. 2 Cor 5:21 was one witness, off the top of my head, that seems to indicate "penal substitution" (your words).

[jabcat]

insights be found witnessed in scripture. 2 Cor 5:21 was one witness, off the top of my head, that seems to indicate "penal substitution" (your words).

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.' [Galatians 3:10,13]

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. [1 Peter 2:24]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;  being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:  whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;  Romans 3:23-25

[Molly]

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.' [Galatians 3:10,13]

Galatians 4:5
so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.


"the adoption as sons"

G5206
υιοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).



Isaiah 38:17
 "Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

[Molly]

2. The statement wasn't even ABOUT whether Jesus was actually forsaken or not. 

In Gen 3, God calls to Adam--

On the cross, Adam calls to God--


Where are you?



Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

[onlytruth]

my
God breathed in... and Jesus gave up the last breathe,did Jesus give it up? his spirit not just his life?

[Cardinal]

  Not sure of the point you're making, but He showed me when God breathes in, our spirit taken back, when God breaths out, spirit sent out (into flesh body or otherwise). Blessings....

[peacemaker]

I prefer scripture references to confident assertions. I am open to ideas, but eventually the scriptures speak to me the loudest.

I am open to instruction and I am not dogmatic about much of anything, but I do require that insights be found witnessed in scripture. 2 Cor 5:21 was one witness, off the top of my head, that seems to indicate "penal substitution" (your words).

"The Spirit of the Law is life; not death."

A mere assertion, per se, would be that of putting the Spirit in a box; entertaining the idea or thought that a few Scriptures would be sufficient to prove, or even disprove a thing. Besides this, there are issues which would need to be addressed, such as: The Trinity, or the inerrancy of the Scriptures themselves, which presumably are banned discussions (within the same realm of His Sovereignty and Self-determination). However, I do believe that the "Cross of Christ" is much more than an alternative form of punishment or it's equivalent (a covering or ransom), as the wages of sin is death. Although logically, it does appear that if the death of Christ satisfies the SPIRITS need for justice, then salvation and atonement should be granted to ALL without exception.

"A Sacrificial death, or the Resurrected life?"

I do appreciate your thoughts, preferences, and intent which comes from the heart.

peacemaker
 

[eaglesway]

Hi peacemaker,

 I agree that the cross of Christ is much more than a substitutional satisfaction of the penalty for sin, and I agree that trying to prove a thing by a few verses can be another method of "boxing God. However, you made a strong statement- that the doctrine of "penal substitution" is a fallacy of worldly churches. As I read the scriptures the payment by Jesus on the cross of a debt owed by all men in Adam is a legitimate part of the gospel. My point was that the scriptures ought to be a part of such an assertion, because opinions are like belly buttons- everybody has one(including me  ).

You also just made another strong statement, as if it is a logical truism.

 "Although logically, it does appear that if the death of Christ satisfies the SPIRITS need for justice, then salvation and atonement should be granted to ALL without exception."

This is not necessarily logical. IMO logic must be informed by the Logos. Although Jesus paid the debt for all, God has made participation in the deliverance a matter of covenant. So, even tho "as in Adam all died so in Christ shall all be made alive", it will be each in their own order, as "every knee bows and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"- as I am sure you know. From Abraham till now participation requires faith. Logically then, Christ's death could satisfy a penalty for all as a ransom and nevertheless require the effect of time(an administration suitable to the fulness of time) in reaching God's ultimate kind intention, "for we do not yet see all things subject to Him". Among the effects of the cross are reconciliation for all, subjection of all to Christ by the Father, ratification of the covenant, and destruction of the enmity of law.

SO to end, I am not sure that you are correct that because I believe that Christ's death on a cross satisfied certain requirements of God regarding the penalty of sin(among the many other things, indeed all things, it accomplished... "It Is Finished"), that I have received a worldly fallacy. You would have to provide some scripture for me to consider, along with any logic.

[peacemaker]

God has made participation in the deliverance a matter of covenant.

The language of participation is not only different from substitution, it is contrary to it in the normal sense of the word (Logos).

Jesus was crucified as a consequence of sin; for death is the logical conclusion of sin, whether it is that in which we actively participate or in which we are merely spectators and recipients. In other words, I tend to see these verses of  "Jesus bore," the logical end of our sin, but overcame the consequences through his final act of forgiveness and resurrection.

His "justice" is not meant to bring punishment, but correction, healing and reconciliation. However, the temple which had a monopoly on forgiveness through required sacrifices; turned communion with the SPIRIT into a franchise, covering themselves in His blood.

"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. (1 Peter 4:12-13 see also Romans 8:17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:5)

"Having canceled the written code (law), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." (Colossians 2:14)

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life, set me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1).

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified…" (Galatians 6:14)

"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:10)

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; And the knowledge of God, more than burnt offering." (Hosea 6:6)

"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51: 16-17)

Satisfaction: Jesus' perfect sacrifice satisfied God's demand for glory from imperfect humanity.

Penal Substitution:  Jesus' punishment satisfied God's demand for each individual's punishment.

Ransom: Jesus' death satisfied the adversaries demand for payment.
 
I am sorry, for me, the math just doesn't work out; legalistic bookkeeping. If you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. As if I didn't have enough to think about already. Is Penal Substitution an official ™ Christian view?

If so, then I am glad that I'm not labeled a Christian in the Orthodox since of the Word.

peacemaker

[Molly]

Is Penal Substitution an official ™ Christian view?

The way I see it, Jesus comes to ransom his family with his own life, in the tradition of the kinsman-redeemer, and in the process, ransoms the whole world.

Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

[eaglesway]

Hi peacemaker

I appreciate the clarification on your definitions concerning Satisfaction, Penal Substitution, etc. Now I have a clearer idea of what you are saying. As I said in my previous posts, I see the cross as much more than penal substitution, but I still see it(p. s.) as a part of the picture.  God has, does and will inflict punishment- specific to and appropriate to specific transgressions. Of course, the end result is correction and healing. Nevertheless, it is part of the process. Recognizing that Jesus suffered 39 stripes that belonged to me, is a part of my healing. The confession of sin, allows propitiation for sin (1John 1), so I can escape the punishment I deserve through a broken and contrite heart. If I will not acknowledge my sin, that punishment will lead to my eventual restoration, but it is still advisable for me to take advantage of the propitiation.

Psa 89:32  Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(Luk 12:47-48)

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
(Heb 12:11-13)