My God, my God

[Nathan]

Okay, some feel this passage where Jesus is crying out on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" and they believe it's to mean "my family, my family".  I'd like to have those of you who see it this way to expound on that a little.  I went back to it and the original language still says he's crying out "God" and not family. 

And even in the context, the next verse states that people who heard him say it thought he was crying out for Elijah.  Which would raise the question, did they not understand what language he was speaking?  If he stated "my God" how would they then assume he was crying out for Elijah?

The original word for Elijah is Eliyah, according to strongs.  And in Matthew 27:46 Jesus is literally saying And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?  Which I suppose "Eli, Eli" could sound like "Eliyah".  But how do you go from that to reading it that he's calling out "my family, my family"?

I guess I'm not quite seeing it.

[CHB]

Hi Nathan,

Here are a couple of articles I found that seems to make more sense as to what Jesus was saying. I don't know about the "family" part but I just cannot see Jesus asking the Father why he had forsaken him.


http://www.thenazareneway.com/why_hast_thou_forsaken_me.htm

http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm

CHB

[Cardinal]

  I replied to this on the other thread just now Nathan.....

[Nathan]

Thanks CHB . . .very enlightening!!

[Jerm]

I agree with CHB.  Jesus is the only person to have ever fully and completely obeyed God in everything he did, even to the point of dying on the cross.  If, after enduring the greatest act of faithfulness ever imagined, God turned His back on Jesus, what does that then say about He will treat us?  If you look at all of Psalm 22, it is actually a psalm of hope and confidence that God will not abandon.  As a side note, another popular notion is that God did forsake Jesus on the cross because God cannot be in the presence of sin.  I would challenge that by saying where else could He be?  If that is true, then the Incarnation could have never happened.  No, instead God is the Great Physician who descends in the darkness and sickest of places to bring healing and light.

[onlytruth]

Jesus walked completely in the spirit,in doing so he would never die....hence why God(spirit) had to seperate himself in order for the death experience to occur.Now He could show the victory over death for everyone to see.
blessings

[Dallas]

God did not forsake Jesus. The scriptures were quite straight forward; "I will never forsake you or leave you"

Jesus knew this, so

1. Jesus' faith was misplaced
2. If God would lie to Jesus, what stops Him from lying to us sinners
3. The Bible is a contridiction
4. The Bible is fraudulant
5. We shouldn't trust God, for God betrayed even His own

or maybe....just maybe...we need to know the scriptures more.

[Paul Hazelwood]

G1459  egkataleipo  eng-kat-al-i'-po

from G1722 and G2641;

to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a
bad sense) to desert:--forsake, leave.


(in a good sense)   is the key here.

[Molly]

Psalm 22
 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

 2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

 3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

 4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

 5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

 6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

 7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

 8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

 9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

 11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

 12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

 13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

 15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

 16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

 18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

 19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

 20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

 21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

 23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

 24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

 25My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

 26The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

 27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

 28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

 29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

 31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

[peacemaker]

And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." (Matthew 26:39)

He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done." (verse 42)

Now paraphrasing this: "My God, My God …"

"My Father, your power will save me, for into your open hands I commit my Spirit; It is finished!"

(Having said this He took His last breath in faith)

He was taken beyond the jurisdiction of the law, as the "high" priest, judge, and teacher of all humanity by virtue of the promise. The faithful witness of the Gospel, concealed within the tree of life. The SPIRITS counsel and oath is eternal. And Christ is the mediator of the Covenant, as I see it. Although many thought that he called for Eli'jah, they just are not sure, historical and linguistically speaking; a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic spoken within the difficulties of breathing.

Personally, I do not believe that He felt abandoned, nor was He ever forsaken.
 
" For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him ."

peacemaker

[Molly]

He had to experience everything we experience.  Who here has never felt forsaken by God?



Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.





Jonah 2
 1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

 2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

 3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

 4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

 5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

 6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

 7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

 8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

 9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

 10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

[firstborn888]

He had to experience everything we experience.  Who here has never felt forsaken by God?

That is as I see it as well, and beyond that I believe He was a symbol of all mankind and cried out in proxy for every human who has ever lived. Of course He (and we) have never actually been forsaken and were never in any but temporal danger, a paper tiger in the big picture.   

[peacemaker]

Who here has never felt forsaken by God?

Faith is that which rises above our feelings; to know that the Spirit is always present.

"In the valley of the shadow of death .... Thou art with me."

peacemaker

[Nathan]

Faith is a unique characteristic that is a trait which actually only comes from God.  It's not a natural function such as seeing, smelling, tasting . . . each of us began with a "measure" of faith that God gives.  The only way to give God pleasure is to exercise the faith that he's given us.  It's even among the gifts of the spirit.  Part of me "wants" to see Jesus on the cross becoming emotionally numb and lost to the point he cries out to God "why have you left me?" 

And until yesterday, I've always believed and accepted that's what has happened.  But, over the past 8+ years of my life, since being freed from religious mindsets, I've learned that what I've learned up to now can only benefit me most, if I hang on to what I've learned loosely, and allow new understandings to sprout up and let the old ones either blend in with the new and become one, or simply appreciate them for bringing me to where I am, but also letting them go to make way for other things I can't enter into if I still hang on to them.

So I ask myself, pertaining to this specific issue at hand, which brings me the most encouragement?  Which one gives me the greatest rush?  The side that sees Jesus in a totally human state where he's borderline delirious and barely coherent, perhaps even babbling meaningless words and phrases?  Or, the side that sees him, even in the midst of the greatest torture imaginable, he's alert, still purposefully making declarations which fulfill prophecies concerning his purpose and plan. 

 And right up to the end, making a declaration to all within hearing his words, then and now, that even though he's been beaten beyond recognition, tortured beyond comprehension and crucified in front of the entire world, at the end of all of that, one of the last things he utters is that "this" was why he was preserved. 

At this point, in the God-given faith within me, I choose to see the latter.  No condemnation for those who still choose to see him as a mortal.  I totally believe he was mortal, but I also believe he was also God.  One manifested pain, the other manifests purpose.  And all though the cross brought his physical body much pain, the crucifixion also manifested his purpose and in that purpose he let us know "this" was why he really came.  Resurrection was the plan.  Death was inevitable because without it, resurrection could not manifest.

[chuckt]

Jesus was teaching psalms 22 and proving it was about him, i dont for one second beleive Father forsook him as tradition teaches.

psalms 22......WOWZA!!

peace
chuck

[Cardinal]

Faith is a unique characteristic that is a trait which actually only comes from God.  It's not a natural function such as seeing, smelling, tasting . . . each of us began with a "measure" of faith that God gives.  The only way to give God pleasure is to exercise the faith that he's given us.  It's even among the gifts of the spirit.  Part of me "wants" to see Jesus on the cross becoming emotionally numb and lost to the point he cries out to God "why have you left me?" 

And until yesterday, I've always believed and accepted that's what has happened.  But, over the past 8+ years of my life, since being freed from religious mindsets, I've learned that what I've learned up to now can only benefit me most, if I hang on to what I've learned loosely, and allow new understandings to sprout up and let the old ones either blend in with the new and become one, or simply appreciate them for bringing me to where I am, but also letting them go to make way for other things I can't enter into if I still hang on to them.

So I ask myself, pertaining to this specific issue at hand, which brings me the most encouragement?  Which one gives me the greatest rush?  The side that sees Jesus in a totally human state where he's borderline delirious and barely coherent, perhaps even babbling meaningless words and phrases?  Or, the side that sees him, even in the midst of the greatest torture imaginable, he's alert, still purposefully making declarations which fulfill prophecies concerning his purpose and plan. 

 And right up to the end, making a declaration to all within hearing his words, then and now, that even though he's been beaten beyond recognition, tortured beyond comprehension and crucified in front of the entire world, at the end of all of that, one of the last things he utters is that "this" was why he was preserved. 

At this point, in the God-given faith within me, I choose to see the latter.  No condemnation for those who still choose to see him as a mortal.  I totally believe he was mortal, but I also believe he was also God.  One manifested pain, the other manifests purpose.  And all though the cross brought his physical body much pain, the crucifixion also manifested his purpose and in that purpose he let us know "this" was why he really came.  Resurrection was the plan.  Death was inevitable because without it, resurrection could not manifest.

   I would only add; He said I say what I hear my Father say. All seeds bear fruit after their own kind. The Father was this spiritual Seed's "kind".

The Spirit in us must divide flesh from spirit, even the flesh of Jesus the man, because the flesh profiteth nothing.

THEN, is the spiritual Word that was made visible flesh speaking, "When you have seen ME (spiritual Seed within the flesh), you have seen the Father", clearly understood. Blessings....

[CHB]

Hi Nathan,

The first part of your post reminded me of this verse. (John 3:34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE UNTO HIM.

(Rom. 12:3) Last part of verse. according as God hath DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.

The way I see these two verses is. God gives each of us the measure of faith he wants us to have but with Jesus he gave the full amount. Therefore Jesus had more faith than any of us which he needed to carry out his commission.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Card,

"When you have seen ME (spiritual Seed within the flesh), you have seen the Father,"

also, can clearly indicate that He is the Savior of all mankind.

Thanks for that!

[Cardinal]

  Amen......this is also why they didn't know who it was at the tomb, or the two on the road until He SPOKE. They had not received the HG yet to be able to perceive the "form" of the FATHER within the flesh man Jesus. He can only be "seen" thru the Spirit revealing Him.

They had HEARD Him, but didn't know WHO it was that spoke to them, because no man has/had seen the Father (and lived to/by his own ways anymore) and lived.

This is also why He said don't say He's there, or say He's over here, (as the flesh man Jesus again), because He's hid Himself in the last place man would look.........IN MAN. Blessings....

[chuckt]

which makes him Lord of the living and dead, those awake and those that sleep.

all mankind.....

[Molly]

This is just the way I see things so no one has to agree but I would be interested in any feedback.  I think of Spirit as behaving the way water or electricity behaves.

We know that Jesus had the fulness of the Godhead bodily and also that he was given the Spirit without measure [that is, limitless access to the Spirit].  So, for instance, when the bleeding woman touches the hem of his robe, he feels the Spirit leave him but he obviously has no control over it because he asks, Who touched me?  Then, he tells the woman her faith has healed her.  I see this touching of his robe as a sort of making an electrical connection with a perfect conductor [Jesus].  The woman is able to make that connection because of her faith.  The Spirit flows through Jesus to the woman just like when we flip on a light switch.

So here is the question.  Is there a way to cut off the flow of Spirit from ourselves?  I would argue that sin would do it,-- if we are immersed in sin, then we see a hardened heart which is not able to conduct Spirit [not a good conductor in an electrical sense].

I do think that for a moment there on the cross, Jesus was cut off from  Spirit, cut off by the sin he was carrying for us, which is why he yells out, Why have you forsaken me?

It is the same cry made by the LORD God to Adam in the garden after Adam has eaten from the forbidden tree:

9... Where art thou?

--Gen 3

[Nathan]

Well, we can apparently "quench" the spirit, otherwise we'd not be instructed to refrain from doing it.  And I think there's also a passage that speaks about a person has the ability to control when to release the spirit and when to hold it in for the opportune moment.

And there's also the place where because of the doubting minds around him, Jesus could not perform the miracles in his home town like he could elsewhere . . .which I guess answers for me the on-going question as to why you see, or so it seems, that there are greater miracles going on in a mission field in some 3rd world country than in our own backyard.  This nation seems to rely mostly on it's knowledge of God rather than living in revelation from Him.

[Paul Hazelwood]

which I guess answers for me the on-going question as to why you see, or so it seems, that there are greater miracles going on in a mission field in some 3rd world country than in our own backyard.  This nation seems to rely mostly on it's knowledge of God rather than living in revelation from Him.

Nathan, being sincere here, but considering these 3rd world countries that have had mission work in them for decades are still 3rd world countries I wonder what greater miracles are you talking about.  I am not demeaning the mission work that goes on in these countries but just wondering what you see as a greater miracle.

For me, I observe the world and even my own life with all the worst things that I can recall and I still would not want to have been born in a 3rd world country.   I do not yearn for experiences because I have already been blessed abundantly with them just by being born in the US .

[Beloved Servant]

Molly I see what you're saying.
When Jesus died, He sent His Spirit UP.
Up where?
He was one with God so where is up from there?

He said: No one takes My Life; I lay it down.
So for 3 days it was in a dark place. Is that us?

Is He still in the tomb?

How could He be cut off from the spirit when He and the Father are One?
Can God cut Himself off?

It's mind boggling because all these questions are answered by both yes and no.

It seems that there are different answers to questions that refer to either flesh or spirit.
But, when the questions are about Christ, the answer is both.

He is the overlap, The God-Man.
The Harmonious Vibration of Creation.

[peacemaker]

Truth or Tradition?

The bottom line is that Jesus could not have been saying that the SPIRIT had rejected or abandoned Him. That would only surmount to a complete lack of faith within the OT prophesies, promises, and that of the faithful witness, himself. We are meant to find encouragement when our own time comes to be confronted with the reality of what it means to walk through the valley of the shadow of our own death. Although it may damage the religious views of many, the penal substitution is a fallacy. He did not carry our sin, but endured the inequities and injustices; derived from within the hearts and laws of men themselves. A tedious repetition within the worldly churches.
 
"Death is grasping at the shadow; not living life within the Spirit of truth."

The SPIRIT is passionately sorrowful or troubled, NOT wrathful.

peaceful warrior  (aka; peacemaker    )