Author Topic: My friend doesn't believe me  (Read 1351 times)

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DC

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My friend doesn't believe me
« on: December 19, 2010, 04:56:41 AM »
I have a conservative christian friend who studied the history of the bible in college.  Today I tried telling him about UR, and he didn't believe me.  When I explained that certain words were mistranslated (such as how the word that got translated as "punishment" really means "correction"), he said that you have to look at the context in which the words were used.  He said that, when translating the bible you have to look at the context in which each word is used, and that he believes that most modern bible translations are accurate in that respect. He also said that he didn't learn that most early Christians believed in UR, and that he actually learned that it was the opposite.   He also argued that there are no verses saying that anyone going into the Lake of Fire ever comes out.

I told him that believing in ET almost lead me to  a nervous breakdown, and that when I found this site and learned what I sincerely believe to be the truth, I felt a huge sigh of relief and I truly felt that God had lead me to the truth.  He told me that I shouldn't trust my emotions.  He also argued that if UR were true, there would be no need for the bible or preaching if everyone's going to end up in the same place anyway.

So, what's going on?  Are some people just so heart-set on their beliefs that they'll use any excuse they can to support them, even if the truth is clearly written in black and white?  Believing in UR makes me feel MUCH MUCH closer to the Holy Spirit than ET or ED ever could.  Believing in UR has also made it much easier to love and forgive people who I used to despise.  Believing in UR also gives me a sense of unconditional love for everyone and everything God has ever created.  What should I tell him?   Can anyone recommend  any good Tentmaker articles I should have him read?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 05:14:43 AM by DC »

Quaesitor

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 05:35:28 AM »
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So, what's going on?  Are some people just so heart-set on their beliefs that they'll use any excuse they can to support them, even if the truth is clearly written in black and white? 


Sadly yes, and you're just at the start of this tiresome opposition.

Personnaly, I'm about to do as Paul and stop going to the contradicting Jews (christians) and start preaching the gospel to the nations instead (non-christians).

As for you, I exhort you to continue seeking God and the His wonderfull plan so as to strenghten your faith agaisnt the vile attacks that are going to come.
Cause they will come at you like angry beasts with their contexts and their doctorates, masters and everything which men seeks to gain glory in the religious organizations.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 09:07:08 AM »
So, what's going on?  Are some people just so heart-set on their beliefs that they'll use any excuse they can to support them, even if the truth is clearly written in black and white?
To be honest many UR people are the same. Just think about trinity, free will and works. Such concepts are just as undiscussable as eternal.


Timora=torture. Kolasin=correction. Why would Jesus use Kolasin when He could have used the much more clear/true timora?

Neither does it say nobody stays in LoF forever. Context is useless if the words that make up the context are not understood. That's why context very often is useless. Assumption are made and strawmen are erected. Then several pages later that's used as proof for the context of a verse.


I would like to see the quotes that most early Christians didn't believe in UR. And what is early? 50AD? 150AD? 500AD?

As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" ( plerique ). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi ), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.

Augustine Less Severe Than Modern Orthodoxy.

Augustine, however, held the penalties of sin in a much milder form than do his degenerate theological descendants in modern times. He teaches that the lost still retain goodness,--too valuable to be destroyed, and on that account the worst are not in absolute evil, but only in a lower degree of good. "Grief for lost good in a state of punishment is a witness of a good nature. For he who grieves for the lost peace for his nature, grieves for it by means of some remains of peace, by which it is caused that nature should be friendly to itself." He taught that while unbaptized children must be damned in a Gehenna of fire, their torments would be light ( levissima ) compared with the torment of other sinners, and that their condition would be far preferable to non-existence, and so on the whole a blessing. In a limbus infantum they would only receive a mitissima damnatio.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 09:51:59 AM »
 :cloud9: When you said the words "bible college", I knew what came next. Sad to say, most, if not all organized religious institutions have so hardened their hearts to the HS that they are incapable of receiving any revelation of truth in general and of UR in particular.

If they TRULY believe 95% of all people are going to be tortured in hell forever, then they are guilty of not fulfilling at least one of the two commandments Jesus said the 10 hung on, ie. love thy neighbor as thyself.

You can bet that if they had one foot on a banana peel and the other one over the "pit", and could see the same, they'd be praying and screaming for mercy for themselves, at the top of their lungs. Yet their reactions to others being in that supposed state, range from apathy to joyful anticipation at the prospect and in some cases, even a desire to throw them in! Really sounds like loving thy neighbor as thyself, doesn't it? NOT  :thumbdown:

Hang in there and keep studying to show yourself approved.....and love them where they're at, because but for the grace of God, there go "we".....Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline shawn

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »
Lets say your friend is correct.  Lets say the english translations are 100% accurate.  Where do they get their support for ET?  He is correct about there not being any verses saying we get out of the Lake of Fire.  But, it also said for humans it's the second death.  Which falls in line with perishing, destruction and the great bulk of scripture concerning the nonbeliever.

In my opinion, with people of this nature you almost have to debate this in baby steps.  The jump from ET to UR can be too great for some.  Questioning the translations is not something everyone is willing to do...especially at first.  But, once someone can see the errors in their current thinking, they become more open to question the whole.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 11:01:35 AM »
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Where do they get their support for ET?
"Tormented for ever and ever."
In plain English that means the tormenting never ends. It refutes both ED and UR.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 11:09:11 AM »
 :cloud9: And it says the SMOKE of their torment rises forever and forever anyway. The "forever" part is about the smoke. The correction lasts as long as there is fleshly appetites to be consumed in the fire. Our God is a consuming fire. But like the burning bush, His fire does not destroy anything but what He intended it to, ie. the darkness holding his people in bondage. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 11:18:21 AM »
The burning bush is also an ET verse.
It 'proves' that hell is not destruction as ED claims but ET because the bodies are not destroyed by the fire. So both pain and the body last for ever.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 08:12:51 PM »
Quote
Where do they get their support for ET?
"Tormented for ever and ever."
In plain English that means the tormenting never ends. It refutes both ED and UR.

Please quote the verse.  Because the tormented forever and ever is refering to satan, the false prophet, the anti-christ and demons.  It goes on to say in Revelations, for humans it is the second death.  When viewed with the bulk of scripture it's a stretch to make death=everlasting toment.

Offline shawn

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 08:14:02 PM »
The burning bush is also an ET verse.
It 'proves' that hell is not destruction as ED claims but ET because the bodies are not destroyed by the fire. So both pain and the body last for ever.

That's a serious stretch and certainly doesn't line up with the bulk of scripture.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 08:25:33 PM »
Shawn I'm not defending those views.
I'm just stating that some see the verse and burning bush as little bits of proof to support the ET doctrine.
Just little pieces of their puzzle.

You are correct that the verse states the devil is cast in to that fire. UR people say there is no hell. ETs use that verse as proof that there is a hell; and therefore the UR claim is wrong (as usual... :Sparkletooth:)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 09:33:12 PM »
Shawn I'm not defending those views.
I'm just stating that some see the verse and burning bush as little bits of proof to support the ET doctrine.
Just little pieces of their puzzle.

You are correct that the verse states the devil is cast in to that fire. UR people say there is no hell. ETs use that verse as proof that there is a hell; and therefore the UR claim is wrong (as usual... :Sparkletooth:)

I know that you don't defend ET but you like to propose the other side of debates at times...which I like to do myself.  What I find curious is the fact that ETrs must "find little bits of proof" to support their very dark doctrine.  If ET is so, why wouldn't it be screamed from the scriptures?  Why wouldn't it have been addressed in Genesis when Adam and Eve sinned?  It said, the penalty is death...not eternal torture.  I don't think I will be able to understand why many pastors/believers who I believe love the Lord would accept such a dark doctine...one not based on scripture. 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 09:57:49 PM »
I don't think I will be able to understand why many pastors/believers who I believe love the Lord would accept such a dark doctine...one not based on scripture.
A Catholic pupil will allways pick Catholic education to become a Catholic church leader.
Highly biased education.


Quote
don't think I will be able to understand why many pastors/believers who I believe love the Lord
Maybe it's just a job for them.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 10:02:15 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: My friend doesn't believe me
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 10:43:42 PM »
If deception wasn't stealthy and strong, no one would be deceived.   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23