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Full of Questions

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More questions
« on: December 11, 2010, 03:39:24 PM »
Is there another way to interpret Matthew 7:21?   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Young's Literal Translation says "'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens."  Does this have the same meaning? 

And I'm also confused because there seem to be verses in the Scriptures that indicated that salvation is through faith, and verses that indicate that its through good works.

I think I sometimes believe in universal salvation, but there are still questions that pop up sometimes.




« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 03:52:29 PM by Full of Questions »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: More questions
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 03:54:07 PM »
And I'm also confused because there seem to be verses in the Scriptures that indicated that salvation is through faith, and verses that indicate that its through good works.
I think it's both.

Unbreakble rule: The only way to heaven is by believing, following, kneeling for Jesus. Or something similar.
Everyone, that includes the most dedicated believer in Jesus will also be judged by his works. These judgement are no keeping you out of heaven but still God has a few things to say about thos works  :winkgrin:
I think it;s not hard to image that Father is more happy with a believer that spend half his time/fortune on helping the poor than with a believer that stole as much as possible from the poor to increase his own wealth.

YLTMatt 25
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .


Quote
I think I believe in universal salvation, but there are still questions that pop up sometimes.
Questions are good. For me questions are a very important part of:
TVM2Tim 2
15 Study to shew  thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividin the word of truth.

If you mean by that the question about works is problematic for the UR view I disagree because it's equally simiple/hard for any other view.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Quaesitor

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Re: More questions
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 04:16:56 PM »
Is there another way to interpret Matthew 7:21?   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Young's Literal Translation says "'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens."  Does this have the same meaning? 

And I'm also confused because there seem to be verses in the Scriptures that indicated that salvation is through faith, and verses that indicate that its through good works.

I think I sometimes believe in universal salvation, but there are still questions that pop up sometimes.

It has to do with the Kingdom of Heaven and not Heaven itself where God has His throne.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a manifestation of God's rule on this earth and it exists through Christ in those who believe.
The passage speaks about those who are calling Jesus their Lord but are doing their own works, those people ARE NOT going to see the Kingdom of Heaven manifested through Christ in them.

Traditional christianity has mixed everything with the word Heaven and called it a place where the saved will go in the afterlife. Thus they forfeit the power of the Kingdom of God right now and right here through Christ.

All those not doing the WILL of God will not enter that promised Kingdom in this eon (not forever) but that doesn't mean they will go to hell.

My :2c:

Full of Questions

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Re: More questions
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 04:57:34 PM »
Thank you guys, that helped a bit. 

I also recently came across an argument that says that the word "all" sometimes has restricted use in Scripture:

"Though terms like "all," "world," and "whosoever" are used in Scripture in reference to those for whom Christ died (e.g., John 3:16), the terms are to be understood in terms of the elect. In other words:
"All" refers to "all of the elect" or "all classes of men (Jew and Gentile)."
Louis Berkhof says "the word 'all' sometimes has a restricted meaning in Scripture, denoting all of a particular class, 1 Cor. 15:22; Eph. 1:23, or all kinds of classes, Tit. 2:11."
What does the Bible mean when it says Christ is the "Savior of all men"? Charles Hodge answers: "What is meant is that He is our Savior, the Savior of men rather than of angels, not of Jews exclusively nor of the Gentiles only, not of the rich or of the poor alone, not of the righteous only, but also of publicans and sinners....""

I'm not really sure what I believe right now, but I'm trying to figure things out.  My faith has been really shaken these past few days.

Quaesitor

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Re: More questions
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 05:21:14 PM »
Firstly,
I know what you feel, it IS hard to go against the many (christianity).
One thing you have to keep is hope, hope that God will show you HIS will, His heart.
That's what it's all about, knowing GOD, not the word of God - though His Word is incredible- but to know HIM and desire only to be, think, act like Him.
I've had my share of doubts and faith crisis over the last few months but I can tell you that God is faithful and He has shown me so much of Him over these dark days, He was the light in the darkness.

Now about "all"

I think the word all will modify the group named to include everything in that group.
Ex: All females, means every female nevermind their age, color of hair, religion. But it doesn't include males.
All men (in the sense of mankind) would include all that is considered a human being, you cannot disinclude any human being.
When using the word "all" alone, it means it includes everything which is, was and will be. It includes so much everything that Paul was forced to explain that when he said that God has put all under Christ, God is not included. Without that explanation, even God would be included in the all.

Those who believe and teach hell have no other choices that to make use of illogical thought processes because hell is illogical.

Ex:
They say God is almighty but he cannot save those He wills to save (1 Tim. 2:3-4)
They say God is omnipresent yet He cannot be in presence of sin. (that's why they say sinners will be in hell)
They say God is all-knowing yet He didn't knew that 95% of mankind would reject Him.

Traditional christianity is full of holes so they have no other choices that to use non-scriptural elements to fill these holes because the Word of God has nothing to fill them.

So when God says Jesus Christ is the Savior of All men (mankind), He means it!

Full of Questions

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Re: More questions
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 06:15:11 PM »
Thank you, Quaesitor.  That helped me a lot.

I guess I tend to think that when a theologian says something, they may know something that I don't.  But to be honest, I don't think I understand that theologian's argument.  I realize this even more now, after having looked up the scriptures cited.  The scriptures used to support the argument don't seem to have that restricted meaning.  And I'm not sure how it would be possible to talk about all men and only really be talking about some men.  If that were the case, wouldn't the word "all" not be there?  Wouldn't it just read "the saviour of men"?

I want to know God's heart.  To truly know Him.  And I believe that "All things are possible with God." 

« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 06:18:25 PM by Full of Questions »

Offline CHB

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Re: More questions
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 06:25:29 PM »

I want to know God's heart.  To truly know Him.  And I believe that "All things are possible with God."

Hi,

Just ask God for knowledge and depend on him to show himself to you. Please don't look, or depend on man for the truth, although God may show you the truth through man...or woman :grin:.  My opinion is, everyone has some of the truth but no one has all the truth. Only God knows all, ask him who gives to all as he sees fit.

CHB

Quaesitor

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Re: More questions
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 06:32:27 PM »
Quote
Wouldn't it just read "the saviour of men"?

Exactly, that's what God would have written in His Word if he only meant a few of mankind.

Theologians makes their doctrines superior to the word so when faced with a blatant contradiction they will ALWAYS choose their doctrines and pass over the contradicting passage.
The pastor of the church I used to go was very keen of systematic studies over books of the Bible but I always wondered why he would JUMP over some verses from time to time...now I know.

You know it's funny because when talking with my brother-in-law about theology (he's a university-student in theology), he always says that the Bible is full of paradoxes and it's always about understanding what we can. :dontknow:
I say it's funny because since I've been revealed the salvation of all, there is not an ounce of contradiction left in my understanding of the Word, sure I don't understand all of it but there is no more confusion about what I understand.

Quote
I want to know God's heart.  To truly know Him.  And I believe that "All things are possible with God."


This brings joy to my heart brother, I want it too.  :HeartThrob:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: More questions
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 06:39:13 PM »
Note see Hellbusters Hallow  the "Random post #32 by Legoman"
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: More questions
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 06:58:10 PM »
Is there another way to interpret Matthew 7:21?   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Young's Literal Translation says "'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens."  Does this have the same meaning? 

And I'm also confused because there seem to be verses in the Scriptures that indicated that salvation is through faith, and verses that indicate that its through good works.

I think I sometimes believe in universal salvation, but there are still questions that pop up sometimes.

It has to do with the Kingdom of Heaven and not Heaven itself where God has His throne.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a manifestation of God's rule on this earth and it exists through Christ in those who believe.
The passage speaks about those who are calling Jesus their Lord but are doing their own works, those people ARE NOT going to see the Kingdom of Heaven manifested through Christ in them.

Traditional christianity has mixed everything with the word Heaven and called it a place where the saved will go in the afterlife. Thus they forfeit the power of the Kingdom of God right now and right here through Christ.

All those not doing the WILL of God will not enter that promised Kingdom in this eon (not forever) but that doesn't mean they will go to hell.

My :2c:

Easiest to understand explanation I've ever seen.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: More questions
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 07:00:46 PM »
I guess I tend to think that when a theologian says something, they may know something that I don't.  But to be honest, I don't think I understand that theologian's argument.  I realize this even more now, after having looked up the scriptures cited.  The scriptures used to support the argument don't seem to have that restricted meaning.  And I'm not sure how it would be possible to talk about all men and only really be talking about some men.  If that were the case, wouldn't the word "all" not be there?  Wouldn't it just read "the saviour of men"?
FQ,

The Bible has a verification mechanism. Verses, words and teachings are always used in another situation/chapter to avoid misinterpretation.
A chain is as strong as it's weakest link. In case of the Bible if you misunderstand one link you soon get into lots of problems.
Lets for example look at the word Aion. If we don't understand as (also) meaning age instead of forever problems start...
In Matthew 25:46 we see there is punishment. That punishment last for an age but if we understand it as forever, then it means many people will never see heaven because their punishment never ends.
So if we later read Jesus saves all people we have a huge problem because Matthew showed some will forever be punished. That's unsaved.
So explanations needs to be found for verses that say Jesus saves all. All must be watered down to such an extend it aligns with Matthew.
So suddenly all means people of all groups. Like black/white, old/young, smart/dumb, man/woman, etc
Later we read Jesus is the savior of all people especially believers. Just pick up a dictionary and see what especially means. It doesn't mean "that is" ==> All people that is believers.
But 'they' are forced to wriggle like that because they are to thickheaded to accept they might have gotten Aion wrong.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Quaesitor

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Re: More questions
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 07:04:41 PM »
Is there another way to interpret Matthew 7:21?   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Young's Literal Translation says "'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens."  Does this have the same meaning? 

And I'm also confused because there seem to be verses in the Scriptures that indicated that salvation is through faith, and verses that indicate that its through good works.

I think I sometimes believe in universal salvation, but there are still questions that pop up sometimes.

It has to do with the Kingdom of Heaven and not Heaven itself where God has His throne.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a manifestation of God's rule on this earth and it exists through Christ in those who believe.
The passage speaks about those who are calling Jesus their Lord but are doing their own works, those people ARE NOT going to see the Kingdom of Heaven manifested through Christ in them.

Traditional christianity has mixed everything with the word Heaven and called it a place where the saved will go in the afterlife. Thus they forfeit the power of the Kingdom of God right now and right here through Christ.

All those not doing the WILL of God will not enter that promised Kingdom in this eon (not forever) but that doesn't mean they will go to hell.

My :2c:

Easiest to understand explanation I've ever seen.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks James

Offline micah7:9

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Re: More questions
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 08:12:33 PM »
Is there another way to interpret Matthew 7:21?   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Young's Literal Translation says "'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens."  Does this have the same meaning? 

And I'm also confused because there seem to be verses in the Scriptures that indicated that salvation is through faith, and verses that indicate that its through good works.

I think I sometimes believe in universal salvation, but there are still questions that pop up sometimes.

It has to do with the Kingdom of Heaven and not Heaven itself where God has His throne.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a manifestation of God's rule on this earth and it exists through Christ in those who believe.
The passage speaks about those who are calling Jesus their Lord but are doing their own works, those people ARE NOT going to see the Kingdom of Heaven manifested through Christ in them.

Traditional christianity has mixed everything with the word Heaven and called it a place where the saved will go in the afterlife. Thus they forfeit the power of the Kingdom of God right now and right here through Christ.

All those not doing the WILL of God will not enter that promised Kingdom in this eon (not forever) but that doesn't mean they will go to hell.

My :2c:

Easiest to understand explanation I've ever seen.   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: More questions
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2010, 09:30:27 PM »
This is pretty simple.  First off, nowhere does it say that they shall be lost forever, as in "Never will know you", but "Never knew you" in Past tense.  This is a popular scripture used by the Ultra-religious to make Heaven seem like something only for the very best Christians.  But if you read on, it says that they worked miracles, made prophecies and exorcized Demons in his name.  These sound like Ultra-religious works.  So what does this represent? First off, they have created a Vengeful Jesus who would torment most of humanity.  Very blasphemous.  Secondly, these are not commands given by the Lord to perform Exorcists, miracles or create prophecies.  These are extra gifts some get and others dont, based on necessity.  These are not meant as a way to proclaim righteousness.  All that does it create a spirit of Legalism and self righteousness, by claiming your the best in Gods eyes.  And another thing I have noticed is that those who boast of doing such ultra works(many extremely pointless) like those the Pharisees practiced often have no spirit of basic righteousness.  What do you expect when someone worships a vengeful God, and then believes that those who dont live up to those standards deserve hell, while you dont.  A spirit of pride, hate and self righteousness. 

I really do not have an answer on Faith vs. Good works.  There are many theories on that matter.