More Absurdities Outside of UR

[Tim B]

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/absurdities.html

This is pretty hilarious, in retrospect, that I actually used to believe them. No wonders the atheists think so many Christians are crazy.

Don't get me wrong, I totally used to think this way, and I can't blame those who still do, because had God not lead me in the direction he did, I'd still be in the same spot, or worse, than I once was.

[Gab]

Very interesting stuff.

I recall saying on one occasion that those who hold the doctrine of eternal torment to be true generally attempt to hold four assertions to be simultaneously true:

1. God is all-knowing.

2. God is all-powerful.

3. God is all-loving.

4. God sends humans to eternal torment.

But put these four together, and what do you have?  You have a God who knows the moment they are created that humans will go to eternal torment (all-knowing); who has the power to prevent them from going to eternal torment (all-powerful); who does not want them to go to eternal torment (all-loving); and yet who sends them to eternal torment anyway.

And I ask: what mockery of logic is this?  Either God must not know that someone will go to eternal torment, or God cannot prevent them from going to eternal torment, or God wants them to go to eternal torment, or God does not send them to eternal torment.  At the end of the day, Arminians will deny points 1 and 2; Calvinists will deny point 3; and Universalists will deny point 4.

In short, Universalists are the only ones who are actually willing to grant that God is God, in all his omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent glory.  And I say: accept no less.

[Tim B]

Excellent post, Gab! Beautifully written, and beautifully true. 

[WhiteWings]

Hi Gab,

3. God is all-loving.
Therfore
4. God sends humans to eternal torment.
Thereby granting their wish of not wanting to know God

That's the complete version of their "logic"

[Gab]

Hi Gab,

3. God is all-loving.
Therfore
4. God sends humans to eternal torment.
Thereby granting their wish of not wanting to know God

That's the complete version of their "logic"

Yes, I'm aware that that's how the argument to reconcile those four points usually goes, but the part at which I feel it utterly falls apart is when the person then goes on to assert that, if the person wishes to repent after death, then it is "too late" and God will turn away from that soul.

I actually completely agree with the notion that those who are punished when they die in sin are, in some sense, getting what they want.  I think that is true.  What I do not agree with, however, is the implicit assertion that God's mercy has a "best before" date and that God will simply abandon the person to rot in his or her misery.  Just as the shepherd did not rest until the hundredth sheep was found, neither will God rest until the last lost soul has been found, too.

[WhiteWings]

There is hell (grave). Punishment(correction). Elect etc.
Altough twisted the ETs are right about all those points.
Their defenition of aion is wrong but understandeble.
But I never understood how they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death.

[WhiteWings]

What I do not agree with, however, is the implicit assertion that God's mercy has a "best before" date and that God will simply abandon the person to rot in his or her misery.

That's passive.
But the ET vision is that God keeps a fire going. Sends worms. And many other things depending on the author of the love poem.
Abandon for me would be something like God dumping the sinners on some distant planet where the have to work for their needs instead of having it all provided by God.

But even that argument is weak.
Atheists don't believe in afterlife. So their "wish" is being snuffed out. Not tortured.
The wish of a muslim is to meet allah.
The wish of a pagan is to meet their tree god.
The wish...

So the wishes where never being seperated from God but being with their god. That's not just semantics.
All where genuine in their believe. A muslim doesn't worship allah to annoy 'our' God. He worships allah because s/he feels that's the only god.
What happens when a muslim meets Father and Son is just guesswork.
Muslim: Are you allah and muhammed?
God: Nope I'm that Jew God.
Muslim: Hu? Allah will kick your butt.
God: Fine call him.
Muslim: Humm he doesn't listen.
God: Could very well be because I never was able to find him either
Muslim: Lots of gnashing of teeth...
God: Shall I call a Healer?
Muslim: Is it a Jew?

Now I think of it; it can take forever 

Seriously now. All of the above groups will get first hand knowledge. That surpasses any teaching and holy book.
I don't believe in pink fly elephants. But can I deny still it when I actually see them?

[Andromeda_Organa]

Very interesting stuff.

I recall saying on one occasion that those who hold the doctrine of eternal torment to be true generally attempt to hold four assertions to be simultaneously true:

1. God is all-knowing.

2. God is all-powerful.

3. God is all-loving.

4. God sends humans to eternal torment.

But put these four together, and what do you have?  You have a God who knows the moment they are created that humans will go to eternal torment (all-knowing); who has the power to prevent them from going to eternal torment (all-powerful); who does not want them to go to eternal torment (all-loving); and yet who sends them to eternal torment anyway.

And I ask: what mockery of logic is this?  Either God must not know that someone will go to eternal torment, or God cannot prevent them from going to eternal torment, or God wants them to go to eternal torment, or God does not send them to eternal torment.  At the end of the day, Arminians will deny points 1 and 2; Calvinists will deny point 3; and Universalists will deny point 4.

In short, Universalists are the only ones who are actually willing to grant that God is God, in all his omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent glory.  And I say: accept no less.

Gab, I agree. BTW, love the Chocobo avatar!

[claypot]

There is hell (grave). Punishment(correction). Elect etc.
Altough twisted the ETs are right about all those points.
Their defenition of aion is wrong but understandeble.
But I never understood how they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death.

WW, you certainly know why they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death don't you?

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. heb9.27

I have reasoned, battled, and argued in every way imaginable over these words of God. I can even get most people to see the concept of free will in a very reasonable way yet, for many, it comes down to these words in Hebrews.

The belief that there is no 'second chance' as they call it is totally galvanized by this verse.

I see that a 'belief' seems to come first, from some source, usually implanted when young by parents or some other significant source, then people look for Scripture to enforce the belief. Any Scripture will do, no matter how vague or even illogical, so long as it enforces what they already believe.

cp

[Cardinal]

  This just came up recently in a conversation I was having, and someone pointed this out, that I had never seen before in this way. That was a reference to the High Priest, who symbolically "died" by going into the presence of God for the people, after atoning for their sins, ONCE a year. After he went in, if all was accepted, the people were spared judgment for their sins for another year. It was a symbolic rehearsal of what the Lord did once and for all. The whole book of Hebrews is types and shadows of the Tabernacle and the covenant based on it. Blessings....

[claypot]

This just came up recently in a conversation I was having, and someone pointed this out, that I had never seen before in this way. That was a reference to the High Priest, who symbolically "died" by going into the presence of God for the people, after atoning for their sins, ONCE a year. After he went in, if all was accepted, the people were spared judgment for their sins for another year. It was a symbolic rehearsal of what the Lord did once and for all. The whole book of Hebrews is types and shadows of the Tabernacle and the covenant based on it. Blessings....

I know card, but you get my point don't ya? The words are taken, in a desperate way to be sure, but they are taken to enforce what is already believed. If you really believe that there is nothing God can do to save someone after you die then you need Scripture, any Scripture, to back this up.

I'm just responding to WW's words about him not understanding how people can believe what they believe.

cp

[WhiteWings]

There is hell (grave). Punishment(correction). Elect etc.
Altough twisted the ETs are right about all those points.
Their defenition of aion is wrong but understandeble.
But I never understood how they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death.

WW, you certainly know why they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death don't you?

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. heb9.27

I know that favourite verse of cog/lee/tc/... And frankly speaking I knew someone would show it to me.
The verse states judgment comes after death. And....?
Nothing. That's all it says. It doesn't speak about duration. Severity. And NOT about people repenting or not.

The belief that there is no 'second chance' as they call it is totally galvanized by this verse.

There is no second chance in the sense that once you appear before the Judge (after death) you can say: Lets cut a deal. Send me back and I'll be a good person.
Does everyone that is judged by a human judge is given the death sentence? Or does punishment vary?

I see that a 'belief' seems to come first, from some source, usually implanted when young by parents or some other significant source, then people look for Scripture to enforce the belief. Any Scripture will do, no matter how vague or even illogical, so long as it enforces what they already believe.

And here we, unfortunately, have total agreement.

My whole point is; context is fine, but just this verse says judgment can't be avoid. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[claypot]

I agree with you WW. I was just responding to your thought of how can people think that there is no redemption after death. I'm not arguing.

We will pretty much believe what we want to or at least what we are predisposed to believe. If we are intellectually convinced of something that alters our beliefs then it may not be any better than believing a falsehood because I don't believe it is what we intellectually believe but what we SPIRITUALLY believe that counts.

cp

[WhiteWings]

I agree with you WW. I was just responding to your thought of how can people think that there is no redemption after death. I'm not arguing.

Don't confuse my tacky English with being hurt or aggravated by a reply.
I have very few Tentmakers that are on my tiny hitlist.
Besides arguing keeps me sharp. And it makes me learn.

We will pretty much believe what we want to or at least what we are predisposed to believe. If we are intellectually convinced of something that alters our beliefs then it may not be any better than believing a falsehood because I don't believe it is what we intellectually believe but what we SPIRITUALLY believe that counts.

For me it's very hard, as in impossible, to seperate intellectually and spiritually.
Perhaps because I have zilch experience with the last. (or according to some I'm not aware of it)
Personally I have conflicting thoughts (God is true/a fable). Some may argue that's a battle between my intellect and my spirit.
That might be true. But I am aware of that battle. And my intellect is admitting that fact by typing it here.

There are a few people here that are high on the spiritual ladder. They reach into the sky like the people of Babel 
But still it's their intelect that types on this forum.
The way I see it is that in most people the spirit is enslaved by the intelect. And by few it's the other way around.
But still the enslaved intelect is aware it's used as an interface by the spirit.
 

[Tim B]

There is hell (grave). Punishment(correction). Elect etc.
Altough twisted the ETs are right about all those points.
Their defenition of aion is wrong but understandeble.
But I never understood how they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death.

WW, you certainly know why they conclude that it's not possible to repent after death don't you?

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. heb9.27

I have reasoned, battled, and argued in every way imaginable over these words of God. I can even get most people to see the concept of free will in a very reasonable way yet, for many, it comes down to these words in Hebrews.

The belief that there is no 'second chance' as they call it is totally galvanized by this verse.

I see that a 'belief' seems to come first, from some source, usually implanted when young by parents or some other significant source, then people look for Scripture to enforce the belief. Any Scripture will do, no matter how vague or even illogical, so long as it enforces what they already believe.

cp

Although, you might already know this, the easy way to prove such an idea incorrect, at least, based off of Hebrews 9:27 is to quote what it ACTUALLY says (as opposed to what the average Bible will say):

Turns out that most translations of the verse take out the definite article "the" from the verse.

So most translate it as:

27 And, in as much as it is reserved to men to be dying once, yet after this a judging,

When in reality, as the Concordant Literal Version correctly translates, it reads:

27 And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging,

It's talking about the priests within the Old Testament. Not people in general.

[Cardinal]

This just came up recently in a conversation I was having, and someone pointed this out, that I had never seen before in this way. That was a reference to the High Priest, who symbolically "died" by going into the presence of God for the people, after atoning for their sins, ONCE a year. After he went in, if all was accepted, the people were spared judgment for their sins for another year. It was a symbolic rehearsal of what the Lord did once and for all. The whole book of Hebrews is types and shadows of the Tabernacle and the covenant based on it. Blessings....

I know card, but you get my point don't ya? The words are taken, in a desperate way to be sure, but they are taken to enforce what is already believed. If you really believe that there is nothing God can do to save someone after you die then you need Scripture, any Scripture, to back this up.

I'm just responding to WW's words about him not understanding how people can believe what they believe.

cp

  Yeah, I do get your point. My take on it was always that if you die to self while in the flesh, you won't have to literally die. But then I had the Truth of the glorified body and the superior resurrection made life in me early on in my walk. Blessings.....

[Gab]

That's passive.
But the ET vision is that God keeps a fire going. Sends worms. And many other things depending on the author of the love poem.
Abandon for me would be something like God dumping the sinners on some distant planet where the have to work for their needs instead of having it all provided by God.

Well, it depends on what adherent to eternal torment you talk to.  I've heard some say that hell is simply the eternal estrangement from God, whereas others say, as you say, that it is more an active torture chamber.  Not that the first is much better than the second - at least in the second you'd have something to take your mind off of the fact that God has abandoned you for all eternity.

But even that argument is weak.
Atheists don't believe in afterlife. So their "wish" is being snuffed out. Not tortured.
The wish of a muslim is to meet allah.
The wish of a pagan is to meet their tree god.
The wish...

So the wishes where never being seperated from God but being with their god. That's not just semantics.
All where genuine in their believe. A muslim doesn't worship allah to annoy 'our' God. He worships allah because s/he feels that's the only god.

Well, I suppose I should back up a little bit and explain where my head is at.   When I speak of one who died in sin, I'm not by any means talking about the same sort of thing as a fundamentalist preacher might be speaking of.  I will admit right up front that I have unorthodox views on what it means to believe in Jesus as seen in verses such as John 3:16.  Although, then again, I suppose all of us here are guilty of unorthodox thought with respect to modern times.

The Greek word translated there into to "believe" is pisteuo.  When applied to a known figure such as Jesus, it really refers not to so much to factual belief, but rather belief in one's spiritual leader - the trust and confidence that following that person will not lead you astray.  When I put this fact against statements such as those found in 1 John that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, emph. added), I find it very difficult to believe that one who humbly spreads sincere love to his neighbors, yet happens to be (say) Muslim, will find himself in disfavor with God as one would who spends his entire life in self-indulgent greed or sloth and dies wholly unrepentant.  Who are the ones who found aionion life in Matthew 25:31-46?  The ones who fed the hungry, who gave drink to the thirsty, who clothed the naked, who cared for the sick - and who, in doing so, did the same for God... much to their surprise, in fact!

So when I speak of one who died in sin, I'm not referring to one who simply happened to grow up in a part of the world where he or she grew to adhere to a religion other than Christianity.  I'm speaking of one who rejected love, kindness, and generosity their entire life - the sort of person who is in dire, dire need of an infusion of God's endless love.

Gab, I agree. BTW, love the Chocobo avatar!

Thanks, I do too.

[Molly]

...1 John that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, emph. added), I find it very difficult to believe that one who humbly spreads sincere love to his neighbors, yet happens to be (say) Muslim, will find himself in disfavor with God as one would who spends his entire life in self-indulgent greed or sloth and dies wholly unrepentant.

  The Qur'an states Jesus is the Messiah,[Qur'an 3:45] and Muslims believe Jesus is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Dajjal, or Antichrist.[16]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah



Surprise!

[Gab]

Surprise!

Actually, I already knew of that, although it was definitely a surprise when I first found out about it.

My point was not intended to be specifically in reference to Muslims, though - I was more just speaking in general against the idea that WhiteWings touched on that every single person who dies without having accepted Jesus as their lord and savior will be treated in the exact same way as those who live a life of selfishness and apathy towards others.  I don't personally believe that that is what the Bible says, and to be honest I find that kind of a nasty thought, really, as to me it seems to make God's love out to be some sort of exclusive club that people must jump through arbitrary hoops to attain.

[jabcat]

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."  John 14:6

[IceDash]

sadly, most christians said we make our own choice, choose God

the bible said that hell is serperation of God, that what christian believe we have free wills to choose


It still doesn't add up

[WhiteWings]

I find it very difficult to believe that one who humbly spreads sincere love to his neighbors, yet happens to be (say) Muslim, will find himself in disfavor with God as one would who spends his entire life in self-indulgent greed or sloth and dies wholly unrepentant.  Who are the ones who found aionion life in Matthew 25:31-46?  The ones who fed the hungry, who gave drink to the thirsty, who clothed the naked, who cared for the sick - and who, in doing so, did the same for God... much to their surprise, in fact!

".....I have written the laws on their heart..." ?

[WhiteWings]

...1 John that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, emph. added), I find it very difficult to believe that one who humbly spreads sincere love to his neighbors, yet happens to be (say) Muslim, will find himself in disfavor with God as one would who spends his entire life in self-indulgent greed or sloth and dies wholly unrepentant.

  The Qur'an states Jesus is the Messiah,[Qur'an 3:45] and Muslims believe Jesus is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Dajjal, or Antichrist.[16]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah



Surprise!

Muslims also believe in Noach, Abraham etc. (but always by their old name IIRC)
They indeed believe in Jesus. But not as a son of God and a muhammed being superior to Jesus.

[IceDash]

...1 John that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, emph. added), I find it very difficult to believe that one who humbly spreads sincere love to his neighbors, yet happens to be (say) Muslim, will find himself in disfavor with God as one would who spends his entire life in self-indulgent greed or sloth and dies wholly unrepentant.

  The Qur'an states Jesus is the Messiah,[Qur'an 3:45] and Muslims believe Jesus is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Dajjal, or Antichrist.[16]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah



Surprise!

Muslims also believe in Noach, Abraham etc. (but always by their old name IIRC)
They indeed believe in Jesus. But not as a son of God and a muhammed being superior to Jesus.

lol...he is alive in heaven but he is not messiah then why it said that he defeat anti-christ


lol...my head hurt

[Molly]

...1 John that "everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, emph. added), I find it very difficult to believe that one who humbly spreads sincere love to his neighbors, yet happens to be (say) Muslim, will find himself in disfavor with God as one would who spends his entire life in self-indulgent greed or sloth and dies wholly unrepentant.

  The Qur'an states Jesus is the Messiah,[Qur'an 3:45] and Muslims believe Jesus is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Dajjal, or Antichrist.[16]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah



Surprise!

Muslims also believe in Noach, Abraham etc. (but always by their old name IIRC)
They indeed believe in Jesus. But not as a son of God and a muhammed being superior to Jesus.

I don't see where anyone could be superior to Jesus [other than, in their minds, Allah] if they believe 1)Jesus is alive in heaven now, 2)Jesus will return to defeat the antichrist, and 3)Jesus is the Messiah.

But, I don't know for sure.  Please continue the research lol.

I think you might see some sects saying different things, just as it is with Christian sects.  Jehovah Witnesses, for instance.  But, the mainstream view seems to be what I cited above--at least according to wiki.

I'm beginning to think that many from all faiths have been seriously deceived as to what their holy books are really saying.  That wolves in sheep's clothing thing--false prophets have led them astray.  I'm happy to see another 2 billion people loving Jesus, though.  He'll set us all straight eventually.

Many classical commentators such as Ibn Kathir, At-Tabari, al-Qurtubi, Suyuti, al-Undlusi (Bahr al-Muhit), Abu al-Fadl al-Alusi (Ruh al-Maani) clearly mention that verse [Qur'an 43:61] of the Qur'an refers to the descent of Jesus before the Day of Resurrection, indicating that Jesus would be the Sign that the Hour is close.

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour)..."[Qur'an 43:61]


--Wikipedia, IBID


30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

--Acts 17