Matthew 5:26

[Jerm]

I'm kind of confused by some of the interpretations of this passage.  I have read many cite this verse in defense of UR because Jesus states that "You will not come out of there until you pay the last cent" with "there" being defined as hell.  However, the context seems to be referring to an earthly prison (the verse before deals with legal issues.)  Is there something I'm missing here?



*Quick sidenote:  This isn't an argument against UR.  I believe in UR, but I'm not so sure that this verse in particular backs it up.

[jabcat]

I personally wouldn't define it as hell...I believe there's corrective punishment, reaping what we sow, God's cleansing, consuming Lake of Fire...which I think may be God's direct presence.  IMO, the term 'hell' is a mistranslation that's loaded with presuppositions and often leads to many inaccurate rabbit trails.

Anyway, my understanding is that wherever it is and however God chooses to deal with it in each one of us, we won't "get away with" anything...we do and will reap what we sow.

God's blessing, James.

[Jerm]

Hello James.  I agree completely that the actual term "hell" carries way to many preconceived notions with it and looking back, I probably should of used another word, Gehenna perhaps since that is the one translated as hell in the gospels.  Anywho, whatever specific phrase we go by, do you think that is the "prison" referred to in this particular passage or is it referring to an actual prison in the judicial sense of the word?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Jerm!   

I'm kind of confused by some of the interpretations of this passage.  I have read many cite this verse in defense of UR because Jesus states that "You will not come out of there until you pay the last cent" with "there" being defined as hell.  However, the context seems to be referring to an earthly prison (the verse before deals with legal issues.)  Is there something I'm missing here?

*Quick sidenote:  This isn't an argument against UR.  I believe in UR, but I'm not so sure that this verse in particular backs it up.

I do not believe this (Matt 5:26) is talking about anything that takes place AFTER this life...

For CHRIST said:  ..."NOW is the JUDGMENT, ...OF THIS WORLD... (John 12:31)

We live in NOW... and IN NOW, is found JUDGMENT (John 12:31), and SALVATION (2 Cor 6:2)...

Rev 20:12 ...And I saw the DEAD, small and great stand before GOD [we do this in THIS LIFE] and the BOOKS were opened [our LIVES are the BOOKS], and another BOOK was opened which IS of LIFE -- [the LIFE of CHRIST], and the DEAD were judged out of those things which were written in the BOOKS [our lives, as lived], according to their works...

ALL the above takes place NOW... as each one of us "stands" before GOD, and are living our lives BEFORE Him... and are actively placing upon the ONLY FOUNDATION... the works of our lives... (1 Cor 3:11-15)

Those "works" will survive the CONSUMING FIRE of THIS LIFE, or they will NOT... but each one of us will be SAVED by the FIRE of this LIFE which is CHRIST...

We are IN the LAKE of FIRE, ...NOW!  DEATH and the GRAVE are present with each of us, as is CHRIST...

We are suffering in this present life brother (which is an "IMPRISONMENT" in TIME)... and those sufferings [fire] we bear, are due to the EVIL in which we are immersed...

This Scripture is talking about PAYMENT... and as I see it... ONLY ONE could [completely] "PAY" for SIN, for VIA PAYMENT is found REDEMPTION ...and He did JUST THAT... (John 1:29 / John 19:30)

How can YOU or I, "PAY" for our "sins"?

No matter how much "slapping on the butt" we get... or "frying in the pan"... it would not measure up to the REQUIREMENTS of PERFECT PAYMENT...

SIN had to be RECONCILED by Human PERFECTION... which is ONLY found in ONE -- JESUS CHRIST!




PeacE...

...willieH   

[jabcat]

Hello James.  I agree completely that the actual term "hell" carries way to many preconceived notions with it and looking back, I probably should of used another word, Gehenna perhaps since that is the one translated as hell in the gospels.  Anywho, whatever specific phrase we go by, do you think that is the "prison" referred to in this particular passage or is it referring to an actual prison in the judicial sense of the word?

To jump on the back of what Willi said, I think we would want to look at the context, i.e., who Jesus was speaking to, did it pertain to the kingdom/70 AD issues, etc.  He said He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  I interpret that as His earthly ministry.  So I wonder if this may pertain more to the Jewish nation somehow.  I realize there may be as many questions in this "answer" as there are answers to the question  .  But I'm in process here too...not quite ready yet to start my own denomination   .

[Chris]

Like WillieH, I too see this as going on right now, as we are all "prisoners" of "the body of this death".

As I see it, the "debt" that this "wicked servant" owed was to execute TRUE/RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT - which is to show (the same) mercy and compassion every man to his brother (that was shown to him).

He who KNOWS NOT LOVE.... KNOWS NOT GOD!!

1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Mat 6:9-15  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.



We need to PAY IT FORWARD. 

[Tony N]

The judgment is both future and now, in this life.

Now:
1Co 11:30-32 Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing. For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged.
Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."

Future:
Rom 14:10-12  Now why are you judging your brother? Or why are you also scorning your brother? For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God,  (11)  for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!"  (12)  Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God."

The judgment Jesus spoke of I believe will occur when the kingdom is set up on the earth and He rules out of Jerusalem.

[rosered]

The judgment is both future and now, in this life.

Now:
1Co 11:30-32 Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing. For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged.
Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."

Future:
Rom 14:10-12  Now why are you judging your brother? Or why are you also scorning your brother? For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God,  (11)  for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!"  (12)  Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God."

The judgment Jesus spoke of I believe will occur when the kingdom is set up on the earth and He rules out of Jerusalem.

   Yes I can see this !!    thanks all  reaping and sowing   to the flesh
  and  to the Spirit 
  God is not mocked
  His Judgements are  in our hearts [ earth] sowing ,
  planting , watering  and reaping   by the Increase of Gods   Laws in effect
 
  His  wrath  as well  as  His mercy and grace   the incorruptible Word of God / seeds of Life /planted in our hearts of the Spirit and truth / Jesus Christ  , these trees of Life are coming into fruitation  , some just planted  , some being watered and  some reciving Light / knowledge and wisdom of God to grow in Spirit

  as well as the trees of knowledge of good and evil  to be cut down and cast into the fire  , so new life can being , this time with knowldge of God  and His works and Glory and Praise to Him only , not of ourselves  , experiencing His mercy and grace 
  to make the tree Good  and fruit Good   we  believe and obey  and DO  as He wills ask of us  all written and Spoken by the Spirit  for our  own  good 
 
 
 
 
 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

 Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.


 Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
 

 Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


 Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

[peacemaker]

"Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning [himself] to God."

Thank you, Father, that this accountability is to you and is not left to the judgment of men!

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

I'm kind of confused by some of the interpretations of this passage.  I have read many cite this verse in defense of UR because Jesus states that "You will not come out of there until you pay the last cent" with "there" being defined as hell. 

I think it's UR because it shows you can exit the prison.

However, the context seems to be referring to an earthly prison (the verse before deals with legal issues.)  Is there something I'm missing here?

Matthew 5:25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

We are all on the way to the courtroom the moment we are born. We get older and then die. Then we meet the judge Jesus.
If we forgive others during the walk to court (our lifetime); the judge Jesus will forgive us. If we don't Jesus gives us a fine that we must pay to the last cent.

Luke 6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

[trettep]

I'm kind of confused by some of the interpretations of this passage.  I have read many cite this verse in defense of UR because Jesus states that "You will not come out of there until you pay the last cent" with "there" being defined as hell.  However, the context seems to be referring to an earthly prison (the verse before deals with legal issues.)  Is there something I'm missing here?



*Quick sidenote:  This isn't an argument against UR.  I believe in UR, but I'm not so sure that this verse in particular backs it up.

Hi Jerm, the last part of the verse you quoted says "until you pay the last cent'.  Surely, if that is the purpose then the purpose will be achieved and the last cent will be paid. So then what happens? - regardless of where the person is they will have paid and thus no longer captive.  But my view is that this is referring to the Wrath of God.  Compare what happens to the unforgiving servant:

Mat 18:34  And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So trust in Universal Salvation as these verses are no contradiction at all - and in fact show the opposite, that punishment is for a finate amount of time.

Paul

[WhiteWings]

Mat 18:34  And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

So trust in Universal Salvation as these verses are no contradiction at all - and in fact show the opposite, that punishment is for a finate amount of time.

Of couse ETs twist that to fit their own way of thinking.
Yes, those in hell can pay back to the last cent as the verse says. But they still hate God when in hell and keep cursing Him. With every curse more debt is added to their debt. So they are never going to be able to pay off the debt.

[trettep]

Of couse ETs twist that to fit their own way of thinking.
Yes, those in hell can pay back to the last cent as the verse says. But they still hate God when in hell and keep cursing Him. With every curse more debt is added to their debt. So they are never going to be able to pay off the debt.

Then you got them cornered in a sense becaue if those in Hell can continue to be in hate of God then they are sinning.  Therefore, the Eternal Torment believer has to explain at some point when it it should occur that Jesus mission is completed where He destroys the works of Satan (sin).  See that is the major flaw in all of their arguments.  If a person is in eternal rebellion then it means they are eternally sinners which would mean that Jesus never accomplished the mission of destroying the works of Satan:

1Jn 3:8  And he that committeth sin, is of Satan; because Satan was a sinner from the beginning: and for this cause, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of Satan.

Paul

[WhiteWings]

God does destroy the works. Every curse is answered with 1000 years of fire.
But the sinner keeps creating more works of Satan.
Then God destroys those works also. Etc etc etc.

That's the way of their logic.
People are only able to learn new things if they have an open mind.
When I see conversations about religion it appears to me people don't really listen. The only look for angle of attack. (of course there are exceptions)

[sven]

some of the early Christians interpreted it in favor for universalsim

Theodore of Mopsuestia (according to wikipedia) said:

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of his grace. For he never would have said, 'until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing,' unless we can be released from suffering after having suffered adequately for sin; nor would he have said, 'he shall be beaten with many stripes,' and again, 'he shall be beaten with few stripes,' unless the punishment to be endured for sin will have an end.

also interesting:

Irenĉus has been quoted as teaching that the Apostles' creed was meant to inculcate endless punishment, because in a paraphrase of that document he says that the Judge, at the final assize, will cast the wicked into "eternal" fire. But the terms he uses are "ignem aeternum" (aionion pur.) As just stated, though he reprehends the Carpocratians for teaching the transmigration of souls, he declares without protest that they explain the text "until thou pay the uttermost farthing," as inculcating the idea that "all souls are saved." Irenĉus says: "God drove Adam out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, in compassion for him, that he might not remain a transgressor always, and that the sin in which he was involved might not be immortal, nor be without end and incurable. He prevented further transgression by the interposition of death, and by causing sin to cease by the dissolution of the flesh * * * that man ceasing to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God."

The Carpocratians were followers of Carpocrates, a Platonic philosopher, who incorporated some of the elements of the Christian religion into his system of philosophy. The sect flourished in Egypt and vicinity early in the Second Century. Like the Basilidians they called themselves Gnostics, and inculcated a somewhat similar set of theories. Irenĉus says that the Carpocratians explained the text: "Thou shalt not go out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing," as teaching "that no one can escape from the power of those angels who made the world, but that he must pass from body to body until he has experience of every kind of action which can be practiced in this world, and when nothing is wanting longer to him, then his liberated soul should soar upwards to that God who is above the angels, the makers of the world. In this way all souls are saved," etc. But while Irenĉus calls the Carpocratians a heretical sect, and denounces some of their tenets, he had no hard words for their doctrine of man's final destiny.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#90

[trettep]

God does destroy the works. Every curse is answered with 1000 years of fire.
But the sinner keeps creating more works of Satan.
Then God destroys those works also. Etc etc etc.

That's the way of their logic.
People are only able to learn new things if they have an open mind.
When I see conversations about religion it appears to me people don't really listen. The only look for angle of attack. (of course there are exceptions)

BUT, the moment that all the works of Satan were destroyed (before they remanufactured them), would mean that they were at that moment without sin.

Paul

[WhiteWings]

That is if you believe God destroys is a fraction of a second.
I think in their eyes the destroying process takes a while. I think.

What are exactly works of satan?
Just the bad deeds or even bad thoughts?
Or also the ability to be bad?
If the last is excluded then the works are destroyed but the source of them is still able to produce more bad works.

[trettep]

That is if you believe God destroys is a fraction of a second.
I think in their eyes the destroying process takes a while. I think.

What are exactly works of satan?
Just the bad deeds or even bad thoughts?
Or also the ability to be bad?
If the last is excluded then the works are destroyed but the source of them is still able to produce more bad works.

The scriptures tell us that the works of Satan is sin.  Sin is the transgression of the Law.  Jesus said it is what comes out of man that defiles him.

I believe Jesus had bad thoughts and the ability (because of the flesh) to be bad.  If He didn't then how could He have been the author of our salvation and be our example?  However, He overcame all these by the Spirit.

Paul

[WhiteWings]

What exactly is 'overcame' ?
He managed to stop doing sinful things?
Or He lost His ability to sin?
Will the bad stuff return when the HS leaves? Or are you converted to something pure?

That's enough questions for one post....

[trettep]

What exactly is 'overcame' ?
He managed to stop doing sinful things?
Or He lost His ability to sin?
Will the bad stuff return when the HS leaves? Or are you converted to something pure?

That's enough questions for one post....

Well consider for a moment that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was expected to be eaten by Adam and Eve. (After all God was creating His own kind and His own kinds knows Good and Evil):

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Overcoming the flesh is when the lust of the flesh emerges in the flesh and then it is not given the ability to exercised.  For example, somone strikes you the cheek, the flesh immediately says "Strike back!", but via the Spirit of God we can overcome the flesh and turn the other cheek.

Some of these questions require an understanding of just what the Holy Spirit is.  I think that is one of the most misunderstood topics we face.  But it is also one of the most revealing when understood.  Once you know what it is then verses in the scriptures leap out at you with new knowledge to impart.

Paul