Author Topic: Luther and universalism?  (Read 2623 times)

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Offline sven

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Luther and universalism?
« on: March 25, 2009, 04:30:14 PM »
I never was a friend of Luther or his translation (very much like the KJV) but there are some interesting things about Luther - is it possible that he leaned towards universalism?

I know that Luther called the doctrine of immortal soul a devilish lie, and that he said hell needn't stay hell if someone would call for God there. I've heard it was because of Calvin that the reformators didn't abolished the doctrine of immortal soul. Calvin did defend this doctrine and Luther didn't want to have trouble due to this point.

But Luther was a hateful man, he said you should persecute the Jews, the Anabaptists (of which some were universalists), kill disabled children and all this stuff and that God wants the death and the damnation of the sinners.

But I met a former Christian in a German forum (he is now maybe something like an unitarian universalist) who wrote that through the writings of Luther! and Karl Barth came to the belief in universalism.

So is there any hint, that Luther leaned towards universalism?, I know I should this better ask in a German forum, but I know none.

also interesting: http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/Luther.html

Offline chuckt

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 04:49:48 PM »
i suspect many lean twords UR but will not admit it.

then and now, no difference, we saw what happens to leaders whom come out of the closet. what was that guys name that recently came out ? Carlton Pearson.

it is also said billy grahm was a closet UR......woot.

chuckt

« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 04:51:44 PM by chuckt »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 05:28:42 PM »
i suspect many lean twords UR but will not admit it.

I think that's true.
And even more lean toward it if they loose a loved one who wasn't 'holy enough'.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline chuckt

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 05:40:13 PM »
i suspect many lean twords UR but will not admit it.

I think that's true.
And even more lean toward it if they loose a loved one who wasn't 'holy enough'.



about 15 yrs ago i remember discussing things with my dad, i always confronted, he would get read in the face and loose his cool, i soon stoped that realizing i was not keeping the peace.

we had a discussion on ""hell"" the other week, he has changed many of his views.

seems its God whom really need to open our eyes. patiently we wait.

his timming is perfect.


God bless
chuckt
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martincisneros

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 06:31:13 PM »
Martin Luther's very interesting, if not horribly inconsistent:

"God forbid that I should limit the time for acquiring faith to the present life. In the depths of the divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future state." Letter to Hansen von Rechenberg, 1523. (Luther's Briefe, ii. 454.)

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 06:46:05 PM »
How different is the curch of Luther from the UR on this site?
Seems to be an accepted religion unlike UR.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 07:30:04 PM »
modern German Lutherans/Protestants seem to be quite liberal, I don't think they really teach eternal torment any longer, but also not universalism - I think they leave the question open - but no idea.

I read once on a German page, where a guy wrote that estimated 90% of Protestant ministers don't really believe in hell, while more than 90% of evangelicals believe in eternal hell.

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 10:01:26 PM »
Hey, I just wrote an article on this and sent it off to Gary Amirault. He asked me about it some time ago, but I never had the time to finish it. As soon as I find it I can post it here, since Gary is probably very busy at the moment. (I hope I don't forget about it though.)
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline jabcat

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2009, 12:56:22 AM »
modern German Lutherans/Protestants seem to be quite liberal, I don't think they really teach eternal torment any longer, but also not universalism - I think they leave the question open - but no idea.

I read once on a German page, where a guy wrote that estimated 90% of Protestant ministers don't really believe in hell, while more than 90% of evangelicals believe in eternal hell.

I tried sharing UR with a Lutheran coworker who was married to a Lutheran pastor's son...she was very veiled.  She used an NIV, argued that "hell is in the Bible" because her NIV said it...it was like trying to dance with an elephant.  She almost even treated her NIV like it was a holy original manuscript (exaggeration, but get the picture).  I have to think there was some progress made because "My Word will not return to me void"...however, it's been pretty much dropped...and yes, she very much believed in eternal torment...
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

martincisneros

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2009, 01:51:10 AM »
Kinda makes me wonder if there's a deliberate subliminal poke in the eye of Lutherans in the Superman mythology with one of his deadliest foes being Lex Luthor.  There's lots of articles online about the parallels between Superman and Christ, so who knows?  Perhaps the parallels run a little deeper than some of the essays I've seen and the villians should be reexamined.  I'm trying to remember how to google that.  Perhaps try Superman as a Christ Figure.  Here's a sample article:
http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/superman.htm
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 01:54:57 AM by martincisneros »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2009, 08:05:12 AM »
I tried sharing UR with a Lutheran coworker who was married to a Lutheran pastor's son...she was very veiled.
:Chinscratch: I think she is a muslim....

Quote
She used an NIV, argued that "hell is in the Bible" because her NIV said it...
New International perVersion
On quite a few ET site you will find KJV 1611 is the only inspired Bible. NKJV is no good either.

http://www.av1611.org/niv.html
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2009, 08:57:02 AM »
yeah, that 1611 site is something...wow
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2009, 09:06:38 AM »
Well before I found TM I've found many NIV bashing sites. This is a mild one. It has a nice white (readable) background instead of the gloomy black (with some hell pics to stress the point)

So my question was and still is:
Do the real hardliners read anything else than the KJV 1611?
Your co-worker seems a very hardliner but reads a version that almost equals the satanic bible according to most hardline teachers.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 09:11:15 AM »
I think there are levels.  This gal is a really kind-hearted soul, would want no one to suffer, she just sometimes has trouble seeing past the print on the page of her NIV.  There may be a few other levels that get deeper into it, then on the extreme end is the KJVonly, hell-fire, "we're going to get what we deserve" crowd, finally to the final stage of folks like the Phelps clan who are just truly sick and twisted..."God hates you", "he hates this group and that group", whatever particular person they're bashing "has been screaming in hell for 975 days", and will even show you a "picture" of it, etc.  I think there's sort of a 1-10 scale, and I'd say by far, most of the 9's and 10's read only the KJV...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 09:13:26 AM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline sven

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Re: Luther and universalism?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 08:50:16 PM »
Quote
Do the real hardliners read anything else than the KJV 1611?

it's very similar in Germany, most people traditionally read the Luther bible which might be the equivalent of the KJV, the Darby translation (Elberfelder) is also widespread and favoured, even among hardliners. There are some modern, very unliteral translations (I think with evangelical background) which are even worse than the traditional translations like Luther, Darby.

Would be interesting what the KJV hardliners say about the Darby translation - Darby was also a hardliner, convinced of everlasting punishment in hell.

In Germany nobody claims a translation is inerrant, though some 7th Day Adventists prefer Luther 1545 cause it has Sabbath instead of first day of the week, eg. in Acts 20:7.

I think there is a bit controversy about the textus receptus in Germany but not so extreme as it seems to me in America, the 7th Day Adventist Walther J. Veith defends the textus receptus very much but he is a believer in annihilation.

the most ridicilious thing is, that while some criticize that there is no longer translated with hell in the Old Testament at all, some criticize the translation of sheol with hell cause it can imply people are delivered from hell

e.g. 1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell, and bringeth back again. (Douay Rheims)

also Jona 2 and some Psalms where people are delivered from "hell".





 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 09:07:10 PM by sven »