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natcat86

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Judas
« on: January 26, 2010, 12:46:54 AM »
Hey guys writing from my mobile phone so not very exciting text. I was thinking, when Jesus says that He did not loose any of those that the Father gave him, does that include Judas? Most Eter's would say judas was well and truly lost forever but does Jesus say differently?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 12:54:43 AM »
Some say that Judas can be viewed as obedient more so than a traitor.

Offline rosered

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Re: Judas
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 02:34:15 AM »
  Hi Nat , good question
  It seems Judas lost his place in the ministry and his  life . seems he could not bear the  guilt and took his life
  I am sure others will  share their views
  Here are two different  translations  and seems  a bit  different in thought
  just a bit though .. what do you think ?
 
 KJV
 Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 new living translation
   12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 03:10:13 AM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c:......We live or have the life of the Spirit by every word that proceeds from the Father's mouth, not by the bread (letter) alone. Jesus said I speak only what I hear the Father speak. He spoke to Judas after Satan entered him, that which you must do, do quickly, ie. a proceeding word of life from the Father's mouth. Compare with Paul turning one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that the spirit might be saved.

The price of iniquity is the 30 fold realm (30 pieces of silver, instead of, for your SILVER, I'll give you gold) and it's payment is to purchase the potter's field, ie. to be broken. The 30 fold realm is the same as cistern that is set to be broken, that the water can flow out, instead of being stagnant and breeding worms. A "good" cistern, must first hold water (1st baptism/anointing), but the next step is become as a spring of living (or moving) waters (2nd baptism/anointing), and if it will not, then it will be broken to release the living waters.

So think of a pitcher that won't allow the water to flow out of it, so it must be broken to release the water (spirit). The spirit returns to the One who gave it, so one way or another, that ALL might be saved, EXCEPT the one son of perdition = Satan. The sons of God came before God and SATAN was among them. Blessings....
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 03:15:46 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

martincisneros

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Re: Judas
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 03:10:23 AM »
Hey guys writing from my mobile phone so not very exciting text. I was thinking, when Jesus says that He did not loose any of those that the Father gave him, does that include Judas? Most Eter's would say judas was well and truly lost forever but does Jesus say differently?
As with every other potential UR topic, there's a million answers to it that are good that for whatever reason, nobody's taken the time to compile answers to each topic in a single volume.  Uncertain of why, unless it's the typical with being too broke to pay attention, so that they were lucky to get their own spin in print or a reprint of some amazing classic of UR, but nothing about combing through each really good proof against ET and categorizing them in separate volumes, like a separate book on this topic of Judas with what various UR authors have said over the centuries.  One of my favs on this one is that the same prophecy St. Peter applies to Judas, St. Paul applies to Israel, which would lead one to believe that their fates are going to be the same, ultimately, and since all of Israel shall be saved, then though he might of wished he'd never been born after having betrayed his Master, zero doubts he's restored to God through Christ in the fullness of time, whether or not he likewise sits on a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel since there's reason to believe that might have passed on to St. Paul instead.  Again, there's a prophecy in Zechariah about the opening of the eyes of Israel that they'll likewise be as powerfully grieved at the wounds in Jesus' Hands and Feet when their eyes are opened to Him via the preaching of the Gospel and He's made known to them as the One Who received these wounds in the house of His friends.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 03:17:37 AM »

...perhaps Judas was prepared for dishonor.

martincisneros

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Re: Judas
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 03:21:39 AM »

...perhaps Judas was prepared for dishonor.
2Timothy 2 says that whether a vessel for honor or dishonor, it's our choice, though I realize that's a wrinkle in the nose of some people's sovereignty theology, but it's the Deuteronomy 30:19 choice all over again of life and blessings, death and cursings, but again Romans 11 says all shall be saved, so...whatever one's choice, the deck is stacked, it's trick cards that can be read from the other side, and the dealer's cheating so that the House always wins;-)

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Judas
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 03:24:11 AM »
2Timothy 2 says that whether a vessel for honor or dishonor, it's our choice, though I realize that's a wrinkle in the nose of some people's sovereignty theology, but it's the Deuteronomy 30:19 choice all over again of life and blessings, death and cursings, but again Romans 11 says all shall be saved, so...whatever one's choice, the deck is stacked, it's trick cards that can be read from the other side, and the dealer's cheating so that the House always wins;-)

 :cloud9: Ain't it the truth?  :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Judas
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 03:36:45 AM »
So, if it wasn't Judas it would have been another.
For the plan HAD to be carried out.
Card, why end your sentence with a (?) question mark?

martincisneros

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Re: Judas
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 03:38:36 AM »
It's not God's nature to do miracles. Those are only as necessary, but it is His nature to always have an extra card up His sleeve, and what many would call Him cheating is actually Him doing all things according to wisdom. Everybody that ever grows fully mature into His image will likewise someday always have the proverbial extra card up their sleeve, so as with the salvation of all being inescapable like all things falling into a black hole to become one in some other universe, it is possible to always win and not fail, to come out the head and not the tail after one has fully matured in the Word and Spirit.

The reason I say this is because some people will look at their current prayer lives and some of my recent statements on 1Timothy 2 about praying for all to pull the manifestation of that ransom into the lives of each one and I know the potential cringe that some may have that if Judas's fate in any way relates to their prayer life, then he's TOAST!! roflol

But never try to make intellectual projections about your next realm of spiritual expression and what you'll look like when you've fully grown into that next level 'cause the past doesn't determine the future, unless it's what God said, and then since His promises can't be revoked, then at the end of the day each believer can have the assurance of being on their feet, just the same as their God, with their arms around the whole world as it's sanctified and conformed to our image.  That's been the problem for so long, is that they have been our image!  But His love is winning out and the Word's gaining stronger roots in us day by day and as the Judas's of the world reach for one of our branches to keep 'em from abiding permanently in the abyss, we have the assurance that one day they'll be just like us, as today we're just like Him;-)

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Judas
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 09:30:56 AM »
Some say that Judas can be viewed as obedient more so than a traitor.
I agree with that.

Luke 22:3  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Luke 22:31 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired
to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed
for you, that your faith fail not: and when thou are converted,
strengthen your brethren"

Why was or wasn't satan stopped on both occasions?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Judas
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 10:26:17 AM »
Because Judas meditated on the treachery until he'd drawn into himself the spirit that corresponded with that treachery. He'd opened the door to it, as Job to his trials with his fear; some movies have suggested political ambition on Judas's part 'cause Jesus would shrug off the persecutors like everytime before and just walk off, or supposedly, and he'd have 30 pieces of silver to put back into the bag because he was about to get caught stealing as much as he was, but Jesus had dropped the shield of faith that operates by love and they took Him and the rest is history.  Judas was deeply horrified and manifested the death that he saw in the situation and went for a rope, since his flesh was being driven by a demon with that imagination he'd entertained of making some money off of one of these times that Jesus would just walk away from those that wanted to harm Him -- this time He didn't, and Judas freaked...because He didn't act according to the script in Judas's mind on how this was going to play out like it had every other time. But without the Written Word, how do you script someone that knows more than you do and whose questions are only because He already knows the answer but wants you to "get it"? roflol  Perhaps Judas thought he was sealing his Apostleship and perhaps trying to play both sides, he'd work for the Sanheidren and Rome as well 'til Jesus was ready to overthrow in a military way both the Sanheidren and Rome and Jesus didn't have in mind doing it quite that way. He eventually did, [via the preaching of the Gospel,] but not in the way Judas had the chess game all played out in his head.

Chris

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Re: Judas
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2010, 02:07:18 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

 

Offline Taffy

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Re: Judas
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2010, 02:23:10 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

 
:icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

friendofmankind

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Re: Judas
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2010, 03:40:41 AM »
Judas was an Israelite, and the Bible says that ALL Israel will be saved.

Livelystone

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Re: Judas
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 03:41:40 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

What about this scripture?

Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.


And for those who choose to ignore it............. what about this scripture?

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:

Blessings

Doug

Chris

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Re: Judas
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2010, 03:50:05 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

What about this scripture?

Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

What about it?


Quote from: Livelystone
And for those who choose to ignore it............. what about this scripture?

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:

Blessings

Doug


Who, exactly, are you accusing of ignoring this verse?


friendofmankind

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Re: Judas
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 03:50:52 AM »
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html

Tentmaker has a good article on this!

martincisneros

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Re: Judas
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2010, 03:55:29 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

 
From Paul's perspective, everything would have been after the ascension, and Matthias was only chosen because he'd likewise seen Him, so, yes, He appeared to the 12, but Judas had hung himself and was completely out of the picture and Peter's commenting on that with the appointment of Matthias.  How are you going to have a spiritual experience like seeing an Immortal and then go and hang yourself afterwards?  Doesn't fit the known facts and human psychology where Judas would have been elated to have seen Him back from the dead.

Livelystone

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Re: Judas
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2010, 04:03:01 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

What about this scripture?

Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

What about it?

Did Judas not betray Jesus?


Quote from: Livelystone
And for those who choose to ignore it............. what about this scripture?

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch:

Blessings

Doug


Quote
Who, exactly, are you accusing of ignoring this verse?


Whoever chooses to ignore it....... if the shoe fits wear it......... It does not matter to me whose foot it is on  :msealed:

Blessings

Doug
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:13:29 AM by Livelystone »

Chris

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Re: Judas
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2010, 04:04:39 AM »
According to the scriptures, a replacement for Judas was not made until after Christ's ascension, right? (Acts 1:23-26)

And, according to Paul, Christ appeared after His resurrection to "the twelve", right? (1 Cor 15:5)

That must have included Judas, then, right?

So if Judas was still among the disciples after Christ's resurrection and nothing is said about him being damned or cast out - by them/Christ prior to him taking his own life - then why should anyone just assume that Judas is forever lost/damned? If such were the case, it seems that it would be more clearly stated in the scriptures.

It seems to me that Judas represents the "son of perdition" (that "wicked", that "man of sin") that needs to be revealed in all of us - before it can be destroyed "by the brightness of His coming".

 
From Paul's perspective, everything would have been after the ascension, and Matthias was only chosen because he'd likewise seen Him, so, yes, He appeared to the 12, but Judas had hung himself and was completely out of the picture and Peter's commenting on that with the appointment of Matthias.  How are you going to have a spiritual experience like seeing an Immortal and then go and hang yourself afterwards?  Doesn't fit the known facts and human psychology where Judas would have been elated to have seen Him back from the dead.

Are you saying that Jesus appeared to the twelve after His ascension? Or that Mattias was actually chosen before the ascension, though the passage I referenced seems to put it afterward?


Chris

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Re: Judas
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2010, 04:12:22 AM »


Did Judas not betray Jesus?


Yes. What has that got to do with whether or not Judas is or will be saved or if he will spend eternity in hell?

Are you claiming the latter?


Quote from: Livelystone

Whoever chooses to ignore it....... if the shoe fits wear it......... It does not matter to me whoose foot it is on  :msealed:

Blessings

Doug

It might not matter to you, but whoever it is you are addressing might want to know so that they can give an answer or offer clarification for what they have said if it has given you the impression that they are ignoring this (or any other) passage of scripture.

So just wondering which post/who you are addressing?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Judas
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2010, 04:42:46 AM »

...perhaps Judas was prepared for dishonor.

yes, that's my view too.  Played his role, to be reconciled/re-shaped by the Potter.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Livelystone

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Re: Judas
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2010, 04:53:51 AM »


Quote

Yes. What has that got to do with whether or not Judas is or will be saved or if he will spend eternity in hell?

Are you claiming the latter?


Chris  :sigh:

When it was not popular I spoke of UR

It is not a question of what will ultimately happen but what Judas will endure when grace is no longer forbearing but that his purification will be the result of judgement passed.

What do you think of the following scripture?

Acts 1: 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place

Did Judas go to bed of roses?...... of course not!!..... He went to a place reserved for those who betray Jesus!

How do we betray Jesus........ simply put to call on the Lord for forgiveness of sins and then return to sin is betraying Jesus

Because the fact still remains Judas during the judgement appointed to him for his betrayal of Jesus will wish he had never been born........ at least according to the Scriptures that I have great confidence in.

Blessings

Doug

Chris

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Re: Judas
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2010, 06:18:43 AM »


Quote

Yes. What has that got to do with whether or not Judas is or will be saved or if he will spend eternity in hell?

Are you claiming the latter?


Chris  :sigh:

When it was not popular I spoke of UR


 :laughing7:

I know that you believe in UR, which is why I didn't understand what the point was to your question.  :winkgrin:


Quote
It is not a question of what will ultimately happen but what Judas will endure when grace is no longer forbearing but that his purification will be the result of judgement passed.

What do you think of the following scripture?

Acts 1: 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place

Did Judas go to bed of roses?...... of course not!!..... He went to a place reserved for those who betray Jesus!

How do we betray Jesus........ simply put to call on the Lord for forgiveness of sins and then return to sin is betraying Jesus

Because the fact still remains Judas during the judgement appointed to him for his betrayal of Jesus will wish he had never been born........ at least according to the Scriptures that I have great confidence in.

Blessings

Doug

Seems to me that Judas already wished he had never been born; or why else did he kill himself? 


But let's look at Mar 14:21 in a few other translations:


Mar 14:21

(CLV) seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

(EB)  Because, the Son of Man, indeed, goeth his way, - according as it is written concerning him; but alas! for that man, through whom the Son of Man is being delivered up, - Well for him, if that man, had not been born!

(LITV)  Truly the Son of Man goes as it has been written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It were good for him if that man had never been born.

(YLT)  the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up; good were it to him if that man had not been born.'


Good FOR WHOM if WHO had never been born?


Good for Judas if Judas had never been born?


That seems to make sense in the way that KJV is worded. But it makes much less sense when you look at the wording of these other translations, as they don't seem to treat the "him" and the "that man" as references to the same person. Indeed, it wouldn't make sense to say "good were it to him (Judas) if that man (Judas) had not been born"


Certainly, the "that man" refer to Judas, as "that man" is mentioned twice and is in reference to him "through whom the Son of Man is delivered up" (Judas).


But who is the "him"? Judas or the Son of Man?


And, indeed, the CLV capitalized the "H" in "Him" making the "Him" refer to Christ (the Son of Man), rather than Judas.


That doesn't make it correct, but would it make sense to say that it would have been good for "the Son of Man" if "Judas" (through whom He would delivered up to be crucified) has not been born?

I believe that it does, particularly since it is "the Son of Man" (as opposed to "the Son of God") that is being referred to by Christ.

So did Judas go to "a bed of roses"? No he didn't. He went to his grave in shame. :mblush: