Author Topic: Jesus and UR  (Read 1668 times)

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Tim B

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Jesus and UR
« on: July 02, 2009, 08:27:32 AM »
So, as I've grown up through I've always had trouble reading the Scriptures. Especially reading the words of Jesus himself. I remember even telling my parents (at one point when I was really struggling with my view and fears of God): "The God that David describes in the Psalms seems to be more loving than Jesus." And to this day, through all the messages of UR I can't seem to find very many from Jesus himself. Obviously there is when Jesus said he would "Drag all men to himself." But are there any others that anybody here can think of?

I swear though, despite coming to believe in UR, or believing it is the most likely truth, I can't seem to get rid of my fears of condemnation. Not so much for myself, but I still worry that God won't save everyone in the end (in other words, I have doubts about UR, which is, I'm sure, pretty common amongst all beliefs). Plus I still can't really seem to read Jesus without thinking of him somehow condemning somebody, or threatening judgement. It's getting a little bit hard for me to keep fighting off doubts about whether or not God will save all people...  :sigh:

So, if you guys have anymore quotes by Jesus that seem to speak of UR, and if you guys could also be praying for me, that'd be awesome!  :happy3: Thanks!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 09:03:17 AM »
Lets start with the favorites from my signature

1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
=> God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
=> The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
=> And Jesus accomplishes His task

Colossians 1:19-20  or it pleased the Father .... to reconcile all things unto himself (=God); by him,
reconcile = bring back a former state of harmony 95% of humanity in hell isn't a (former) state of harmony.
1 Corinthians 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Hosea 2:23  And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; => Mercy is given to the wicked.
Isaiah 1:18  ....  though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Shall means it will happen. It's what God wants. Man has no choice in this matter.
White and wool represent a pure soul.
All with a pure soul will enter Heaven
Isaiah 25:6-8  .... make unto all people a feast of fat things....And he will destroy .... the vail that is spread over all nations.  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces....
John 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh(=by force) away the sin of the world.
John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world. (world=mankind)
John 4:42  .... and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Luke 2:10  ... Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.  Joy in hell?
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Matthew 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.
Psalm 65:2-3  ... all people approach you. Our record of sins overwhelms me, but you forgive our acts of rebellion.
Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Including calls from hell.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.       
1 Timothy 2:3-4  .... God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
1 Timothy 2:6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
1 Timothy 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 09:14:53 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 06:24:14 PM »
 :cloud9: Come against fear and unbelief and keep reading the scriptures pertaining to it  until your mind is washed in the water of the Word. Fear hath torment, and what you are describing is bringing you torment. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 02:18:46 AM »
The first chapter of Colossians speaks to the Love of the Word for us:


Weymouth translation

1:15 Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God, the Firstborn and Lord of all creation.

1:16 For in Him was created the universe of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, thrones, dominions, princedoms, powers--all were created, and exist through and for Him.

1:17 And HE IS before all things and in and through Him the universe is a harmonious whole.

1:18 Moreover He is the Head of His Body, the Church. He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, in order that He Himself may in all things occupy the foremost place.

1:19 For it was the Father's gracious will that the whole of the divine perfections should dwell in Him.

1:20 And God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood, which was shed upon the Cross--to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in Heaven.

1:21 And you, estranged as you once were and even hostile in your minds, amidst your evil deeds,

1:22 He has now, in His human body, reconciled to God by His death, to bring you, holy and faultless and irreproachable, into His presence;

1:23 if, indeed, you are still firmly holding to faith as your foundation, without ever shifting from your hope that rests on the Good News that you have heard, which has been proclaimed in the whole creation under Heaven, and in which I Paul have been appointed to serve.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:52:16 AM by Beloved Servant »

Tim B

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 07:43:53 AM »
:cloud9: Come against fear and unbelief and keep reading the scriptures pertaining to it  until your mind is washed in the water of the Word. Fear hath torment, and what you are describing is bringing you torment. Blessings....

Read all the verses pertaining to UR, or the ones I don't like?

Thanks for all the verses BTW guys! You guys are really a blessing!  :boogie:

Offline j.

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 09:35:09 AM »
Don't fear judgment, bro:

Matthew 12:20-21:

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

God's judgment is a righteous one, and He takes into account everything that we have lived through, and judges us sanctified because of what Jesus did, not what we have done. The victory that comes from that judgment is that all are indeed reconciled, and in the end, God wins. Our "will" loses, our sin loses, our mistakes and shortcomings lose, Satan loses, and all the wood, hay, and stubble are burned off in the fire that is our Father and we will see Him as He is, and we will be perfected in and through Him.

That's victory.  :thumbsup:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 10:27:05 AM »
Don't fear judgment, bro:

Matthew 12:20-21:

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

God's judgment is a righteous one, and He takes into account everything that we have lived through, and judges us sanctified because of what Jesus did, not what we have done. The victory that comes from that judgment is that all are indeed reconciled, and in the end, God wins. Our "will" loses, our sin loses, our mistakes and shortcomings lose, Satan loses, and all the wood, hay, and stubble are burned off in the fire that is our Father and we will see Him as He is, and we will be perfected in and through Him.

That's victory.  :thumbsup:


very uplifting.
Thank you j.
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"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2009, 10:39:54 AM »
NAS Matthew 12:20 "A battered reed He will not break off, And a smoldering wick He will not put out, Until He leads justice to victory.

The red and blue show the road to victory isn't based on torture... :thumbsup:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline j.

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2009, 11:02:37 AM »
NAS Matthew 12:20 "A battered reed He will not break off, And a smoldering wick He will not put out, Until He leads justice to victory.

The red and blue show the road to victory isn't based on torture... :thumbsup:


Absolutely.  :laughing7:

The idea that "God is love" is completely lost on most Orthodox Christians.

Let's also not forget one of my favorite verses in the Bible:

Romans 8:1:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."  :bgdance:

Who's "in Christ"? Everyone. Not all are aware of this yet, but "each in their order".

Man, the good news of the Gospel makes me fired up! Tim B, I haven't posted here in years (I came to Tentmaker about six years ago), but I'm back, and it's to encourage folks like yourself. It's hard to face the masses that disagree with ultimate reconciliation, it's difficult to shed the years of religious nonsense and dogma, and it's hard to "hold fast to that which is good".

But, bro, know this: God is indeed love, He did indeed reconcile the world unto Himself, and ALL will see this glorious message someday.

Shed the condemnation. Let that part of the flesh be burnt to ashes, and live the life in which you were crucified with Christ, and it's no longer you who live, but Him in you. Let that settle in, embrace it, and revel in the knowledge that His death was your death, and the problem of sin has been dealt with, once for all. "There is NO condemnation". 

Rejoice! 

Offline j.

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2009, 11:04:38 AM »
Don't fear judgment, bro:

Matthew 12:20-21:

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

God's judgment is a righteous one, and He takes into account everything that we have lived through, and judges us sanctified because of what Jesus did, not what we have done. The victory that comes from that judgment is that all are indeed reconciled, and in the end, God wins. Our "will" loses, our sin loses, our mistakes and shortcomings lose, Satan loses, and all the wood, hay, and stubble are burned off in the fire that is our Father and we will see Him as He is, and we will be perfected in and through Him.

That's victory.  :thumbsup:


very uplifting.
Thank you j.
 :HeartThrob:

My blessed Sparrow,

Think of it as a favor returned for all the times you have lifted my spirits.

Be blessed, Sis.  :HeartThrob:

70sevens

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 01:20:04 PM »
You, bros and sis, really have eyes to pick up what you want to see and hear from the Scripture.
I remember a boy in the film  who can see ghost (dead man) was saying that
dead man only sees what he wants to see and only what he wants to hear.
Bruised reed and smoking flax are not referring to those who think they are them.

Quote
I swear though, despite coming to believe in UR, or believing it is the most likely truth,
I can't seem to get rid of my fears of condemnation.

You can be comforted by some quotes from the Bible as above,
but the consolation will not last long.
I am sure that the emptiness and fear will come back again sooner or later.
Because it is not the fundamental solution.

If we wish to choose that kind of faith to the end the life, we can do so.
If we wish not to choose that kind of faith, we can do so also.
And we will reap what we sowed.

Be blessed.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 06:27:18 PM »
Matthew 12:20 "A battered reed He will not break off, And a smoldering wick He will not put out, Until He leads justice to victory.

Some commentaries on the verse.

Barnes
A bruised reed ... - The reed is an emblem of feebleness, as well as of fickleness or want of stability, Mat_11:7. A bruised, broken reed is an emblem of the poor and oppressed. It means that he would not oppress the feeble and poor, as victorious warriors and conquerors did. It is also an expressive emblem of the soul broken and contrite on account of sin; weeping and mourning for transgression. He will not break it; that is, he will not be severe, unforgiving, and cruel. He will heal it, pardon it, and give it strength.
Smoking flax - This refers to the wick of a lamp when the oil is exhausted - the dying, flickering flame and smoke that hang over it. It is an emblem, also, of feebleness and infirmity. He would not further oppress those who had a little strength; he would not put out hope and life when it seemed to be almost extinct. He would not be like the Pharisees, proud and overbearing, and trampling down the poor. It is expressive, also, of the languishing graces of the people of God. He will not treat them harshly or unkindly, but will cherish the feeble flame, minister the "oil" of grace, and kindle it into a blaze.
Till he send forth judgment unto victory - "Judgment" here means truth - the truth of God, the gospel. It shall be victorious - it shall not be vanquished. Though the Messiah is not "such" a conqueror as the Jews expected, yet he "shall" conquer. Though mild and retiring, yet he will be victorious.

Clarke
A bruised reed shall he not break - A reed is, in Scripture, the emblem of weakness, Eze_29:6; and a bruised reed must signify that state of weakness that borders on dissolution and death.
And smoking flax shall he not quench - Λινον τυφομενον. Λινος means the wick of a lamp, and τυφομενον is intended to point out its expiring state, when the oil has been all burnt away from it, and nothing is left but a mere snuff, emitting smoke. Some suppose the Jewish state, as to ecclesiastical matters, is here intended, the prophecy declaring that Christ would not destroy it, but leave it to expire of itself, as it already contained the principles of its own destruction. Others have considered it as implying that great tenderness with which the blessed Jesus should treat the weak and the ignorant, whose good desires must not be stifled, but encouraged. The bruised reed may recover itself, if permitted to vegetate under the genial influences of heaven; and the life and light of the expiring lamp may be supported by the addition of fresh oil. Jesus therefore quenches not faint desires after salvation, even in the worst and most undeserving of men; for even such desires may lead to the fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of peace.
Judgment unto victory - See Mat_12:18. By judgment, understand the Gospel, and by victory its complete triumph over Jewish opposition, and Gentile impiety. He will continue by these mild and gentle means to work till the whole world is Christianized, and the universe filled with his glory.


     [A bruised reed shall he not break.]
These words are to be applied,  as appears by those that went before,  to our Saviour's silent transaction of his own affairs,  without hunting after applause,  the noise of boasting,  or the loud reports of fame.  He shall not make so great a noise as is made from the breaking of a reed now already bruised and half broken,  or from the hissing of smoking flax only when water is thrown upon it.  How far different is the Messias thus described,  from the Messias of the expectation of the Jews!  And yet it appears sufficiently that Isaiah,  from whom these words are taken,  spake of the Messias,  and the Jews confess it. 

     [Till he send forth judgment unto victory.]
The Hebrew and LXX in Isaiah read it thus,  "He shall bring forth judgment unto truth."  The words in both places mean thus much,  That Christ should make no sound in the world,  or noise of pomp,  or applause,  or state,  but should manage his affairs in humility,  silence,  poverty,  and patience,  both while he himself was on earth,  and by his apostles,  after his ascension,  labouring under contempt,  poverty,  and persecution;  but at last  "he should bring forth judgment to victory";  that is,  that he should break forth and show himself a judge,  avenger,  and conqueror,  against that most wicked nation of the Jews,  from whom both he and his suffered such things:  and then,  also,  "he sent forth judgment unto truth,"  and asserted himself the true Messias,  and the Son of God,  before the eyes of all;  and confirmed the truth of the gospel,  by avenging his cause upon his enemies,  in a manner so conspicuous and so dreadful.  And hence it is,  that that sending forth and execution of judgment against that nation is almost always called in the New Testament  "his coming in glory."  When Christ and his kingdom had so long laid hid under the veil of humility,  and the cloud of persecution,  at last he brake forth a revenger,  and cut off that persecuting nation,  and shewed himself a conqueror before the eyes of all,  both Jews and Gentiles.  Let it be observed in the text before us,  how,  after the mention of that judgment and victory (against the Jews),  presently follows,  "and in his name shall the Gentiles trust." 

Gill
A bruised reed shall he not break,.... Various are the thoughts of interpreters, about what is meant by this, and by

the smoking flax shall he not quench. Some think the Scribes and Pharisees are designed, whose power Christ could easily crush, and their wrath and fury restrain, but would not, till the time of his vengeance was come. Others that the publicans and sinners are intended, of whose conversion and salvation there were more hope than of the Scribes and Pharisees; and which Christ greatly sought after, and therefore cherished and encouraged them in his ministry and conversation. Some are of opinion, that such who have fallen into sin, and are under great decays of grace, are meant, whom Christ has compassion on, succours, and restores: but rather young converts, such as are under first awakenings, are here pointed at; who, like to a "bruised reed", or "broken" one, one that is in some measure broke, near being broken to pieces, are wounded in their spirits, have their hearts broken and contrite, under a sense of their sinfulness, vileness, weakness, and unworthiness; whom Christ is so far from breaking and destroying, that he binds up their broken hearts, heals their wounds, and restores comforts to them: and who are like to "smoking flax", or, as the Syriac reads it, שרגא דמטפטף, "a smoking lamp"; to which the Arabic and Persic versions agree; meaning the wick of the lamp, which being just lighted, seems ready to go out, having scarce any light, only a little fire in it, which makes it smoke: so these have but little light of knowledge, faith, and comfort, and a great deal of darkness and infirmity; only there is some warmth in their affections, which go upwards "like pillars of smoke, perfumed with frankincense"; and such Christ is so far from neglecting, and putting out, that he blows up the sparks of grace into a flame, and never utterly leaves the work,

till he sends forth judgment into victory; that is, till he sends forth the Gospel into their hearts, accompanied with his mighty power, in the light and comfort of it; which informs their judgments, enlightens their understandings, bows their wills, raises their affections, sanctifies their souls, works effectually in them, under the influence of his Spirit and grace, to the carrying on of the work of grace in them to the end; and making them victorious over all their enemies, and more than conquerors, through him that has loved them. The Targum of Jonathan paraphrases the words thus;

"the meek, who are as a bruised reed, he will not break; and the poor, who are as an obscure lamp, he will not quench."

JFB
"unto truth," says the Hebrew original, and the Septuagint also. But our Evangelist merely seizes the spirit, instead of the letter of the prediction in this point. The grandeur and completeness of Messiah's victories would prove, it seems, not more wonderful than the unobtrusive noiselessness with which they were to be achieved. And whereas one rough touch will break a bruised reed, and quench the flickering, smoking flax, His it should be, with matchless tenderness, love, and skill, to lift up the meek, to strengthen the weak hands and confirm the feeble knees, to comfort all that mourn, to say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not.

PNT
A bruised reed shall he not break. The reed, a hollow cylinder, if bruised has its strength destroyed. It thus becomes the symbol of the bruised spirit. The tender Savior will not break, but heal.

Smoking flax. The wick of the lamp that had ceased to burn clearly. The violent would put it out and fling it away. The Lord does not use such violence with those disciples who give forth some light, even if it is imperfect.

Till he send forth judgment. Till he shall sit in power and triumph on the throne of judgment.

VWS
Flax
The Hebrew is, literally, a dimly burning wick he shall not quench (Isa_42:3). The quotation stops at the end of the third verse in the prophecy; but the succeeding verse is beautifully suggestive as describing the Servant of Jehovah by the same figures in which he pictures his suffering ones - a wick and a reed. "He shall not burn dimly, neither shall his spirit be crushed." He himself, partaking of the nature of our frail humanity, is both a lamp and a reed, humble, but not to be broken, and the "light of the world." Compare the beautiful passage in Dante, where Cato directs Virgil to wash away the stains of the nether world from Dante's face, and to prepare him for the ascent of the purgatorial mount by girding him with a rush, the emblem of humility:


Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed- A convinced sinner: one that is bruised with the weight of sin: smoking flax- One that has the least good desire, the faintest spark of grace: till he send forth judgment unto victory- That is, till he make righteousness completely victorious over all its enemies.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 06:34:35 PM »
Jesus is the One Who used the most harsh words in the entire bible if I not err, though it's a lie that He talked more about hell then heaven.

He might said some things, which imply universalism, or a limited punishment.

However, Jesus character, as He is described in the gospel would fit best to universalism.

when I was unbeliever, I never could imagine, that Jesus taught everlasting torment, I thought it were vicious men who later corrpted his teachings.

Doug

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 07:01:29 PM »

Here is another discussion, from Joseph Addison Alexander's "Isaiah Translated and Explained" on Isa 42:3. Several chapters, and links are available here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/JAA.html

(There may still be some typos I did not catch.)

Doug

3. A bruised (or crushed) reed he will not break, and a dim wick he will not quench; by the truth will he bring forth judgment. The verbs of the first clause have no exact equivalents in English. The first appears to mean broken but not broken off, which last is denoted by the other. The common version, smoking fax, is that of the Septuagint and Vulgate. The Hebrew noun really denotes flax (Ex. 9:31), but the adjective means faint or dim; so that in order to convey the meaning in translation, the former must be taken in the specific sense of wick, which it also has in ch. 3:17. The verse continues the description of the mode in which the Messiah and his people were to bring forth judgment to the nations, or in other words to spread the true religion. It was not to be by clamour or by violence. The first of these ideas is expressed in the preceding verse, the last in this. That such is the true import of the words is clear from the addition of the last clause, which would be unmeaning if the verse related merely to a compassionate and sympathetic temper. That this verse is included in Matthew's quotation (ch. 12:19), shows that he did not quote the one before it as descriptive of a modest and retiring disposition. For although such a temper might be proved by Christ's prohibiting the publication of his miracles, this prohibition could not have been cited as an evidence of tenderness and mildness. The only way in which the whole quotation can be made appropriate to the case in hand, is by supposing that it was meant to be descriptive, not merely of our Saviour's human virtues, but of the nature of his kingdom aud of the means by which it was to be established. That he was both lowly and compassionate is true, but it is not the truth which he established by his conduct upon this occasion, nor the truth which the evangelist intended to illustrate by the citation of these words. As well in their original connection as in Matthew's application of them, they describe that kingdom which was not of this world; which came not with observation (Luke 17: 20); which was neither meat nor drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost (Rom. 1:17); which was founded and promoted not by might nor by power, but by the Spirit of the Lord; (Zeph. 4:6) and of which its founder said (John 18:36), If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I thould not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence. And again (John 18:37), when Pilate said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest (rightly) that I am a king; to this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth; every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. How perfectly does this august description tally with the great prophetic picture of the Servant of Jehovah, who was to bring forth judgment to the nations, and in doing so was not to cry or raise his voice or let men hear it in the streets, nor by brutal force to break the crushed reed or quench the dim wick, but to conquer by healing and imparting strength. This passage also throws light on the true sense of the somewhat obscure phrase the truth, by showing that it means with respect to the truth, which is here equivalent to saying by the truth. This construction, by presenting an antithesis between the true and false way of bringing forth judgment to the gentiles, is much to be preferred to those constructions which explain the phrase as simply meaning in truth (i.e. truly), or in permanence (i.e. surely), or unto truth (i.e. so as to establish and secure it). All these may be suggested as accessory ideas: but the main idea seems to be the one first stated, namely, that the end in question is to be accomplished not by clamour, not by violence, but by the truth.

trettep

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 07:02:45 PM »
So, as I've grown up through I've always had trouble reading the Scriptures. Especially reading the words of Jesus himself. I remember even telling my parents (at one point when I was really struggling with my view and fears of God): "The God that David describes in the Psalms seems to be more loving than Jesus." And to this day, through all the messages of UR I can't seem to find very many from Jesus himself. Obviously there is when Jesus said he would "Drag all men to himself." But are there any others that anybody here can think of?

I swear though, despite coming to believe in UR, or believing it is the most likely truth, I can't seem to get rid of my fears of condemnation. Not so much for myself, but I still worry that God won't save everyone in the end (in other words, I have doubts about UR, which is, I'm sure, pretty common amongst all beliefs). Plus I still can't really seem to read Jesus without thinking of him somehow condemning somebody, or threatening judgement. It's getting a little bit hard for me to keep fighting off doubts about whether or not God will save all people...  :sigh:

So, if you guys have anymore quotes by Jesus that seem to speak of UR, and if you guys could also be praying for me, that'd be awesome!  :happy3: Thanks!

Be comforted Tim in universal salvation.  Know that God knows the end from the beginning.  He knows who are going to suffer in this life and for what reasons and yet brought them into life anyway because He knows that their fate lays in His hands and they will eventually become filled with His Spirit.  He wouldn't have brought us life to begin with if He knew that we would suffer some eternal torment.  Remember, He knows the END from the very beginning.  There is going to be trials and tribulations but these are all necessary to tear down our pride and bring us into the understanding of what actually Good really means.

Paul

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 07:26:15 PM »
Hi,

I like some feedback on the commentaries I posted. To be honest I have trouble understanding them.
Most seem to start with a (mild) "UR feeling" but then it ends with something similar to "enemies defeated"

The last part of Clarks commetarie is suprisingly URish
Quote
See Mat_12:18. By judgment, understand the Gospel, and by victory its complete triumph over Jewish opposition, and Gentile impiety. He will continue by these mild and gentle means to work till the whole world is Christianized, and the universe filled with his glory.
I assume 'the whole' world includes "hell". Christanised hell?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Jesus and UR
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 07:49:48 PM »
Jesus is the One Who used the most harsh words in the entire bible if I not err, though it's a lie that He talked more about hell then heaven.
Sven, yes just reading the words Jesus spoke quite often sound  :eek:
But I think for correct "judgement" some things need to be considered:
- Many of His words where parables
- Hebrew at that time had a much smaller set of words.
- Diffrent times, different culture, ....
- Hebrew is a based on actions not looks.
I've read an article about that a while ago.
Cow, horse and swallow.
What animal is 'out of place'
My answer would be swallow because a cow and horse have equal size, 4 legs, eat grass, ....
But a Hebrew speaker, according to the article, would answer: Cow.
Horse and swallow move graciously, fast and agile.
And a cow.... well they just cow around a bit all day  :winkgrin:
So for full understanding of verses we don't only have to translate words; but also the way the language and culture worked at that time.
Not that that 'knowledge' gives me a giant leap of understanding but I often try to add it to my interpretation.
I posted some double/triple meanings of Hebrew words and letters in another thread.
I wouldn't be suprised there are hidden word games in much of the verses.

/EDIT :BangHead: :thinking: :drunken_smilie: :idea2: :doh:
And then I realised the NT isn't written in Hebrew :pointlaugh:


Quote
when I was unbeliever, I never could imagine, that Jesus taught everlasting torment, I thought it were vicious men who later corrpted his teachings.
And again that proves some atheists have better grasp of the Bible than those with the hell-sites... :JCThink:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...