Author Topic: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.  (Read 3403 times)

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lee100

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Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« on: August 22, 2009, 05:27:49 PM »
Hey all my UR pals,

Isaiah 53:11 talks about Jesus justifying the "Many". Not "All". Many, does not mean every person who ever lived. It means an innumerable number made up of all nations. (see Rev 5:9) Hmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe that many means all. I think I will believe Isaiah inspired by God Himself.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 05:36:30 PM »
Hey all my UR pals,

Isaiah 53:11 talks about Jesus justifying the "Many". Not "All". Many, does not mean every person who ever lived. It means an innumerable number made up of all nations. (see Rev 5:9) Hmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe that many means all. I think I will believe Isaiah inspired by God Himself.


More translative difficulties I see.


In the hebrew that word also means "populous"  which would be all mankind because that is the context of the biblical story.  But of course an english translation is where you rest your case with a word of your choosing to fit your doctrine rather than a word that fits scripture.



lee100

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 05:42:46 PM »
paul,

You have to twist the word of God and say " populous means all mankind". You are reaching in desperation because you refuse to accept the truth.  Any biblical scholar will tell you that the "many" in this passage does not mean all people who ever lived. Read Rev 5:9.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2009, 05:48:26 PM »
paul,

You have to twist the word of God and say " populous means all mankind". You are reaching in desperation because you refuse to accept the truth.  Any biblical scholar will tell you that the "many" in this passage does not mean all people who ever lived. Read Rev 5:9.


No twisting, that is the biblical message as a whole, not your piece meal arrogance.


lee100

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2009, 05:53:39 PM »
paul,

2 Peter 1:20 " Know this first of all, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."

1 Corinthians 2:14 " But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised or discerned."

Offline FineLinen

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 05:58:14 PM »
100/37: The same mass of mankind "made sinners", are the mass of mankind made righteous! And, the same all who die in Adam 1 are made alive in the Last Adam!

LINK

The insertion of the definite article, which the Authorized Version unwarrantably leaves out before the word "many" in each case, emphasizes the fact for which it was originally placed there, viz.-- that the company of the righteous is identical in person and number with the company of the sinners to which the passage refers.

"Of the travail of his soul, shall he see He shall be satisfied with his knowledge, A setting right when set right himself, shall my Servant win for the Many, Since of their iniquities, he, taketh the burden."
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009, 05:59:54 PM »
paul,

2 Peter 1:20 " Know this first of all, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation."

1 Corinthians 2:14 " But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised or discerned."



Hi Lee I see you have made a personal confession by using those verses.  Baby steps.


lee100

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009, 06:08:26 PM »
finelinen,

Why are you guys so desparate to not believe the truth? Is that were true then why does Jesus say this:

John 10:16

16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Notice Jesus does not say "All people" and "Every unbeliever" are His sheep. Just the ones that hear His voice. Otherwise he could not distinguish unbelievers as GOATS in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus does not say the Sheep and the Goats will become one flock, eventually. If "all people", including the GOATS, would eventually become His sheep  this would be the time to say so, but Jesus does not. Hmmmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe this. I think I will trust Jesus.


Matthew 7:14 " For the gate is SMALL AND the WAY is narrow that leads to life, and there ARE FEW WHO FIND IT."

Notice that Jesus says "FEW" who find this life. If "All" find this life eventually, Jesus would say so, but He does not. Jesus is very clear "Few" find it. But the UR wants you to believe "All" will find this life. Hmmmmm. I think I will trust Jesus.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009, 06:12:48 PM »
Why are you guys so desparate to not believe the truth?


A baseless assertion.

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2009, 06:17:35 PM »
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

Lee,

Your answer is right here. Unless you believe that there were any who were not made sinners by Adam's disobedience, then many can mean all, as it does in this case. And that same all will be made righteous.


lee100

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2009, 06:18:45 PM »
paul,

LOL. Bless your heart.   I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 06:20:39 PM »
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

Lee,

Your answer is right here. Unless you believe that there were any who were not made sinners by Adam's disobedience, then many can mean all, as it does in this case. And that same all will be made righteous.




CogLee believes that God created some for the sole purpose of being damned to hell therefore they never ever had any hope from the start.  



Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2009, 06:23:21 PM »
paul,

LOL. Bless your heart.   I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.


No, you just posture this in your own arrogance.    You have to defy your own expectations to make the case for your beliefs.   While you expect us to refrain from empty rhetoric you use it right here.  While you want specific scriptures based upon your own phrases of words, you use scriptures with explanations that use words that are not in those same scriptures.

You sir are a liar.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2009, 06:29:12 PM »
paul,

LOL. Bless your heart.   I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.

Indeed you have dropped many bombs. But never had the guts to stick around and see if the bomb did some damage.
Lee100, if you are really here to guide us to the light your aproach is completly wrong.
Just drop 2 or 3 or your bombs and then discuss the damage done. And by discussing I don't mean starting another thread or drop more bombs. Afterall you have full sight. We are blinded so we can't run like you. So help us by making small steps...
But that's not really your aim is it? You are here to destroy not to build.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2009, 06:33:51 PM »
I will just say for any moderators, in my opinion he is breaking the rules of conduct and should be handled appropriately. I think the evidence speaks for itself as to what this has become.

Ron

Offline FineLinen

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2009, 06:35:42 PM »
paul,

LOL. Bless your heart.   I have dropped so many scripture bombs that have totally desrtoyed and evaporated UR and you and others are reaching so far to build Ur back up instead of accepting truth.

Indeed you have dropped many bombs. But never had the guts to stick around and see if the bomb did some damage.
Lee100, if you are really here to guide us to the light your aproach is completly wrong.
Just drop 2 or 3 or your bombs and then discuss the damage done. And by discussing I don't mean starting another thread or drop more bombs. Afterall you have full sight. We are blinded so we can't run like you. So help us by making small steps...
But that's not really your aim is it? You are here to destroy not to build.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2009, 06:37:47 PM »
finelinen,

Why are you guys so desparate to not believe the truth? Is that were true then why does Jesus say this:

John 10:16

16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Notice Jesus does not say "All people" and "Every unbeliever" are His sheep. Just the ones that hear His voice. Otherwise he could not distinguish unbelievers as GOATS in Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus does not say the Sheep and the Goats will become one flock, eventually. If "all people", including the GOATS, would eventually become His sheep  this would be the time to say so, but Jesus does not. Hmmmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe this. I think I will trust Jesus.


Matthew 7:14 " For the gate is SMALL AND the WAY is narrow that leads to life, and there ARE FEW WHO FIND IT."

Notice that Jesus says "FEW" who find this life. If "All" find this life eventually, Jesus would say so, but He does not. Jesus is very clear "Few" find it. But the UR wants you to believe "All" will find this life. Hmmmmm. I think I will trust Jesus.


 :cloud9: What you don't realize is that neither talks of two types of people but of two types of NATURES within all men, and our response is what determines our nature. Which one we surrender ourselves to and how much "tribulation" it takes to get us there, determines the circumstances of our deliverance.

The word for goat runs into a word that means, to keep going in circles.

Unlike the sheep nature,which is our measure of faith to receive Him, that once spoken to will respond to His voice when He calls (I know you think YOU "decided" to turn to the Lord) them, going up over the mountain of flesh.

By surrendering to the goat nature of carnal man, the "goat" will go around and around the mountain of flesh until he wears a rut so deep, it takes Him going after the one that was lost, to pull him out of the "pit" he created for himself.

And again; if you would study the Tabernacle, you would realize that the "gate" and the "narrow way", are both references to the openings of the Tabernacle pattern, which get progressively smaller as you pass thru the 3 courts, effectively making sort of an arrow pointing the way into the holiest of all, the Most Holy Place.

The reason "few there be that find it", is because what is at the end of it is the high calling in Christ Jesus Paul spoke about, and only a remnant will find it initially, as God always deals with a firstfruits, first. It has NOTHING to do with the salvation of the others that don't initially find it, as you understand salvation.

What you do not yet realize is that these letters were written to a primarily JEWISH audience as they were brought into the Kingdom FIRST. Over the centuries, their "Jewishness" content of meaning has been lost to those of "gentile" backgrounds who do not know of nor understand the references therein. Therefore without bothering to study the pattern shown Moses in the mount, error abounds in Babylon, and THEY are your "teachers". Blessings....
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 06:47:59 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2009, 07:16:46 PM »
"scripture bombs"

Lol, thats funny!
Scripture duds is the accurate metaphor.
For not one detonated.
There is no life in them.
Just dead letters.

Offline FineLinen

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2009, 07:31:41 PM »
Fifteen Bombs That Sank My Theological Ship

HERE
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2009, 07:32:07 PM »
BS,

They did detonate.
But the fact is that Lee100 uses hand grendes and still isn't aware he throws the pins at us  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2009, 07:38:10 PM »
Good post FineLinen.
And WW, that's why "Christianity" consists of so many walking-wounded.

lee100

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2009, 07:54:23 PM »
Ron,

This has become you and others denying the truth of the scriptures given to you. Then, when the light of those scriptures shines in your eyes.. you want the Light to be turned off.

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2009, 08:00:42 PM »
Isaiah 53:11 talks about Jesus justifying the "Many". Not "All". Many, does not mean every person who ever lived. It means an innumerable number made up of all nations. (see Rev 5:9) Hmmmmm. But the UR wants you to believe that many means all. I think I will believe Isaiah inspired by God Himself.

No, UR does not want you to believe that "many" means "all".  "Many" means "multitudes".  It can and does refer to all mankind in some places while in other places it refers to fewer than all.  Where "many" does refer to all, that would be based on the context, not on the word "many".  Never seen anyone in UR argue that "many" inherently means "all".   So what did you prove?  Nothing.



« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 08:05:48 PM by bobf »

lee100

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2009, 08:04:28 PM »
bobf,

Many, is an innumerable number of people made up of all nations.(Rev 5:9) Right, in this case it means fewer than all.

bobf

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Re: Isaiah 53:11... Hmmmmmm.
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2009, 08:21:45 PM »
bobf,

Many, is an innumerable number of people made up of all nations.(Rev 5:9) Right, in this case it means fewer than all.

"Many" is not always "an innumerable number of people made up of all nations".

Revelation 5:9 could be fewer than all, but not clear.  Rev 5:9 has redeemed from every kindred, tongue, people, nation.  Rev 14:7 has gospel preached to every nation, kindred, tongue, people.