Is Universal Salvation A Heresy?

[rjohnson741]

Most of the Church says Universalism is a heresy. But who condemned Universalism as heresy? I Know of no early church council who condemned Universalism as heresy. The only authority that really matters is the Bible. What does the Bible have to say about the salvation of all? Here are two biblical statements: STATEMENT 1---God desires the salvation of all mankind(1Timothy 2:3-6; Romans 11:32; 2Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 33:11, John 3:16. STATEMENT 2---God is sovereign and all powerful. Therefore God will accomplish all that He wills or desires(Isaiah 55:11; Isaiah 46:10-11; Job 42:2; Psalm115:3; Matthew 19:24-26; Ephesians 1:10-11. If God desires to save all mankind(STATEMENT 1), and He has the power through love to accomplish that desire(STATEMENT 2), then it stands to reason, He will save all mankind!! Furthermore, if statements 1 and 2 are both true biblical statements, why is it considered heretical for the Universalist to believe in both of these true biblical statements? Also, if statements 1 and 2 are both true, then as a matter of logic, there must be scriptures to support the conjunction of these two statements. Here is a short list of some of those scriptures---Psalm 22:27-28, Psalm 66:3-4, Psalm 145:8-10, Isaiah 25:6-8; Isaiah 26:9, Isaiah 45:22-24, John 1:29, John 12:32, John 4:42, Romans 5:18-19, 1John 2:2, 1John4:14, Colossians 1:19-20, 1Timothy 4:9-11, 1Timothy 2:3-6, Revelation 5:13, Philippians 2:9-11, 2Corinthians 5:17-19, Romans 11:30-32, Ephesians 1:9-11, and of course The Consummation, which is the ultimate conjunction of Statements 1 and 2---"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished:death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him, that God may be All in all" 1Corinthians 15:22-28 Concordant Literal New Testament. If the salvation of all through Jesus Christ is a heresy, then it is a most, wonderful, beautiful, glorious, and Biblically sound heresy.

[reFORMer]

Mystical Babylon is those who are intimate with Institutional Christianity in ways we are only to be intimate with God.  It exists in the imaginations of those indoctrinated by and positioned according to its bureaucrats.  It is not "The Church," although this is one of the titles it blasphemously takes unto itself.  Perhaps there are some in it who could be called the apostate church, since God says, "Come out of her, my people." (Revelation 10⁴)  Apostasy is spiritual adultery.  Many never think of meeting with Christ as head, leading forth freely from any member of His body.  They meet as enabling audiences for professional preachers or for the man on stage to preform rituals.

God has His Own way in Himself.  When we come into Him we are in His kingdom.  Jesus says hierarchical authority is of the Gentiles.  "Their great ones rule over them."  He also says, "It is not so among you, my disciples." (loc.cit., Mt 20^20-24,25-28, Mark 10^42-45, Luke 22^24-27.)  For the true Church, which is His body, the mouth is in the head, not the body.  Jesus says every tongue will confess Him as Lord and that He will seek until he finds and saves the last sheep.

[rjohnson741]

Hi Reformer. Even many true believers and sincere christians who are a part of the body of Christ, believe in eternal torment and believe Universalism is heresy. That was who I was referring to when I said most the church. Blessings to you.

[reFORMer]

I suppose I would rather you said, "Much of what is called the Church says Universalism is a heresy."  I'm too easily into a rut about that topic.  The state of much that is called the Church is very troubling.  I wonder when what it says and does against Jesus and the gospel becomes too much.  When it's wrong is it really the Church?

(May God mutually bless us in the pursuit of His presence.)

[lomarah]

Mystical Babylon is those who are intimate with Institutional Christianity in ways we are only to be intimate with God.  It exists in the imaginations of those indoctrinated by and positioned according to its bureaucrats.  It is not "The Church," although this is one of the titles it blasphemously takes unto itself.  Perhaps there are some in it who could be called the apostate church, since God says, "Come out of her, my people." (Revelation 10⁴)  Apostasy is spiritual adultery.  Many never think of meeting with Christ as head, leading forth freely from any member of His body.  They meet as enabling audiences for professional preachers or for the man on stage to preform rituals.

God has His Own way in Himself.  When we come into Him we are in His kingdom.  Jesus says hierarchical authority is of the Gentiles.  "Their great ones rule over them."  He also says, "It is not so among you, my disciples." (loc.cit., Mt 20^20-24,25-28, Mark 10^42-45, Luke 22^24-27.)  For the true Church, which is His body, the mouth is in the head, not the body.  Jesus says every tongue will confess Him as Lord and that He will seek until he finds and saves the last sheep.

I love this. I think I'm going to save a copy of it. Thanks. 

[Lazarus Short]

Labeling certain beliefs as "heresy" is just a tool for control.

[ded2daworld]

When Martin Luther came along, "the church" was the Catholic church and priests and monks supossedly had power over your eternal soul by threatening eternal torture if you didn't stay in line.
Martin Luther is responsible for what we now call protestantism from the fact that he "protested" against the catholics (he was a catholic preiest at the time) He never said they were wrong about everything, just they were wrong about somethings.
The ONLY church recognised at that time branded him a heretic and burned him at the stake when he refused to say he was mistaken when he told the truth about the catholic church.
So all "protestants" were considered heretics for not conforming to the "accepted" church of the day.

When Christians first came along (first called this at Antioch, they were considered heretics. A heretical branch of the pharisees (since the pharisees believed in life after death) but it was considered heretical that Jesus was the Messiah and many were put to death over this heresy. Saul of Tarsus was the main persecutor of this new sect of heretics and was responsible for many deaths until the TRUTH met him on the Damascus road and he became a heretic himself named Paul.

[urpilgrim]

Just a note about Luther d2d. Luther died of natural causes on Feb.18,1546 at the of 62. A stroke I believe was the cause of his death.

[ded2daworld]

My mistake. I have 2 DVD's and i had forgotten that he had only been told he might be burnt at the stake if he did not recant.
"Here I stand, I can do no other"

Thanks URpilgrim, I'm 60, and that's the 8th time I've been wrong about something.
I was wrong a lot living with my parents
then I was never wrong when I lived alone,
Now that I'm married, I seem to be wrong all the time.

[eaglesway]

Mystical Babylon is those who are intimate with Institutional Christianity in ways we are only to be intimate with God.  It exists in the imaginations of those indoctrinated by and positioned according to its bureaucrats.  It is not "The Church," although this is one of the titles it blasphemously takes unto itself.  Perhaps there are some in it who could be called the apostate church, since God says, "Come out of her, my people." (Revelation 10⁴)  Apostasy is spiritual adultery.  Many never think of meeting with Christ as head, leading forth freely from any member of His body.  They meet as enabling audiences for professional preachers or for the man on stage to preform rituals.

God has His Own way in Himself.  When we come into Him we are in His kingdom.  Jesus says hierarchical authority is of the Gentiles.  "Their great ones rule over them."  He also says, "It is not so among you, my disciples." (loc.cit., Mt 20^20-24,25-28, Mark 10^42-45, Luke 22^24-27.)  For the true Church, which is His body, the mouth is in the head, not the body.  Jesus says every tongue will confess Him as Lord and that He will seek until he finds and saves the last sheep.

Powerful post James.

[legoman]

A heresy is defined as any doctrine or opinion at variance or in contradiction with established orthodox tradition.

It is also another way to say "you're wrong and I'm right" or "you don't have the Truth with a captial T".

In reality it has little to do with what the truth is.

[eaglesway]

A heresy is defined as any doctrine or opinion at variance or in contradiction with established orthodox tradition.

It is also another way to say "you're wrong and I'm right" or "you don't have the Truth with a captial T".

In reality it has little to do with what the truth is.

Yes that is how all the orthodoxies define it :o)  In the scriptures a heretic is one who causes divisions(factious man)

Thayer,  5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims

αἵρεσις
hairesis
hah'ee-res-is
From G138; properly a choice, that is, (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion. ("heresy" is the Greek word itself.): - heresy [which is the Greekord itself], sect.


It appears all the "orthodoxies" are heresies against one another and altogether against the Body of Christ and the gospel of God.

[rjohnson741]

A heresy is defined as any doctrine or opinion at variance or in contradiction with established orthodox tradition.

It is also another way to say "you're wrong and I'm right" or "you don't have the Truth with a captial T".

In reality it has little to do with what the truth is.

Hi Legoman. Eternal torment is an established orthodox tradition in most of christendom---"And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition" Matthew 15:6 NASB. Eternal torment invalidates Romans 5:18-19, Colossians 1:16-20, The Consummation(1Corinthians 15:22-28), and a host of other scriptures that declare the wonderful and glorious purpose God has for His creation. Blessings to you.

[legoman]

A heresy is defined as any doctrine or opinion at variance or in contradiction with established orthodox tradition.

It is also another way to say "you're wrong and I'm right" or "you don't have the Truth with a captial T".

In reality it has little to do with what the truth is.

Hi Legoman. Eternal torment is an established orthodox tradition in most of christendom---"And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition" Matthew 15:6 NASB. Eternal torment invalidates Romans 5:18-19, Colossians 1:16-20, The Consummation(1Corinthians 15:22-28), and a host of other scriptures that declare the wonderful and gloriuous purpose God has for His creation. Blessings to you.

Indeed.

But of course all those Universalists with their traditions are invalidating the word of eternal torment...

[thinktank]

My mistake. I have 2 DVD's and i had forgotten that he had only been told he might be burnt at the stake if he did not recant.
"Here I stand, I can do no other"

Thanks URpilgrim, I'm 60, and that's the 8th time I've been wrong about something.
I was wrong a lot living with my parents
then I was never wrong when I lived alone,
Now that I'm married, I seem to be wrong all the time.

Maybe your thinking of John Huss, one of the first reformers.

[thinktank]

Mystical Babylon is those who are intimate with Institutional Christianity in ways we are only to be intimate with God.  It exists in the imaginations of those indoctrinated by and positioned according to its bureaucrats.  It is not "The Church," although this is one of the titles it blasphemously takes unto itself.  Perhaps there are some in it who could be called the apostate church, since God says, "Come out of her, my people." (Revelation 10⁴)  Apostasy is spiritual adultery.  Many never think of meeting with Christ as head, leading forth freely from any member of His body.  They meet as enabling audiences for professional preachers or for the man on stage to preform rituals.

God has His Own way in Himself.  When we come into Him we are in His kingdom.  Jesus says hierarchical authority is of the Gentiles.  "Their great ones rule over them."  He also says, "It is not so among you, my disciples." (loc.cit., Mt 20^20-24,25-28, Mark 10^42-45, Luke 22^24-27.)  For the true Church, which is His body, the mouth is in the head, not the body.  Jesus says every tongue will confess Him as Lord and that He will seek until he finds and saves the last sheep.

Powerful post James.

Apart from the mystical Babylon reference. That poor adulteress woman seems to be painted as everything these days, because they cannot find her.  That's because she has not been built yet.

[thinktank]

Actually, the scripture says to rejoice when she is destroyed.

[jabcat]

Actually, the scripture says to rejoice when she is destroyed.

What's your understanding of what that is, tank?

[thinktank]

Actually, the scripture says to rejoice when she is destroyed.

What's your understanding of what that is, tank?

Basically the antichrist the king of Babylon sets up a city and empire for his glory, He ships in the captured saints so that they are martyred there.

brother shall betray brother.

[sheila]

....that's because Babylon is really an evil spirit adversary  to Jerusalem Above. A Jezebel spirit that kills

  the rightful owner of the vineyard to secure it for her husband[satan..the synagogue of]


  He calls His children  to come out of her.

   Elijah..who was to come again..showed who had the truth. There was a great challenge as to who

 was the True God.  there were prophets of Baal..and prophets of the grove as well as Elijah.


   The people had confused the true God with Baal.   Jesus speaks to the churches as already infiltrated

  with the Jezebel and tolerating her,as well as infiltrated with those who hold to teaching of Balaam..


    It is the destruction of the evil contrast spirit that we rejoice in...never are we glad of our captive brothers

  and sisters predicament. this babylon evil contrast spirit likes to present herself as the Lamb's wife....

  she definately smothers the little children of God.  in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints

  and all who have been killed on the earth.false religious worship of idols/demonic doctrines.  you can

 recognize at work through time..bloody works..demonic doctrines, always persecuting those that

 spoke the true words of God

   This evil spirit confuses mankind..and a lot of people do not know God because of her..but worship

 an imitation false image/idol in His place.

[lomarah]

Yes. 

Bec saw Jezebel Sheila. (You might know that already, likely do I'm sure she shared it before.)

You know sometimes I feel like your cheerleader LOL. I can't help it, the Spirit bears witness and I have to shout hallelujah. :)

[eaglesway]

In the year of Jubilee, every fiftieth year, all of the inheritances were to return to the original families. Because of that spirit of Jezebel and Ahab and Babylon it was only celebrated a few times.

"Evryman under his own vine and his fig tree" was an "iconic identifier" of blessing, freedom, wholeness and prosperity for EVERYONE IN THE LAND. During periods of restoration and expansion it was so- as in the days of Solomon.

1Ki 4:25  So Judah and Israel lived in safety, every man under his vine and his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

Everyone in Israel and Judah knew this saying. It was like our "Land of the free home of the brave" or "pursuit of life, liberty and happiness". SO much so that when the Assyrians came to conquer Israel the propagandist at the walls spoke of it in mockery.

2Ki 18:31  'Do not listen to Hezekiah, for thus says the king of Assyria, "Make your peace with me and come out to me, and eat each of his vine and each of his fig tree and drink each of the waters of his own cistern,

Isa 36:16  'Do not listen to Hezekiah,' for thus says the king of Assyria, 'Make your peace with me and come out to me, and eat each of his vine and each of his fig tree and drink each of the waters of his own cistern,

When threatening chastisement God spoke in these terms through Jeremiah

Jer 8:13  "I will surely snatch them away," declares the LORD; "There will be no grapes on the vine And no figs on the fig tree, And the leaf will wither; And what I have given them will pass away."'"

What I have given them will pass away.

In the body of Christ the same is true. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
(Rom 12:3-6)

but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding(head of gold), excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
(Eph 4:15-18)

Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as leaders of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
(Mar 10:42-45)

As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1Pe 4:10-11)

This freedom and blessing was seen in abundance in the coming of the kingdom at Pentecost- "they were all as one soul....no one among them had any need".....

It will be the "iconic identifier" of the wonder and glory of the age to come......


Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war. Each of them will sit under his vine And under his fig tree, With no one to make them afraid, For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

It is manifested among us (IMO) in these verses :o)

Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh. Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above(Jerusalem), but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:11-18)



(Mic 4:2-4)

"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here. 'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you--indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch. 'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'"
(Zec 3:7-10)

[sheila]

Amen!   Loved how you tied in that inheritance portion with the spirit of Jezebel,EW..Liar and theif

  spirit[false wittness to slay/accuse rightful owner to steal vineyard...each man's inheritance in God.

  Satan's m.o. from the garden of Eden.

[eaglesway]

Thought you might :o)

[eaglesway]

Jezebel harasses Ahab, who has always wanted the other man's inheritance, but the fear of the Lord kept him from it. Jezebel weaves a doctrine of deception, (as the King you should have whatever you want, exalting power over justice and equity, false prophetess teaching my people to commit fornication and eat meat sacrificed to idols-justifying immorality). Ahab acquiesces to murder. Jezebel teaches Ahab a lie and God gives him over to it as the measure of the cup of Ahab's iniquity fill to the full and the Lord brings his end upon him, "pierced" by an arrow- 1Ti 6:10  For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Today we have many doing the same, twisting scriptures like "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm" to silence the voices of those who are declaring "Jubilee"(for freedom Christ has set you free, call no man "Rabbi", call no man "Father", for you are all brothers and sons of the most high)and to justify their abusive authority structures(head of gold), systematic theologies(meat sacrificed to idols, graven images), their "bitter jealousy and selfish ambition"(wisdom from below).

Ahab is a type of those who "leave their proper abode", which means they exceed their proper authority and abridge the inheritance rights of the brethren. They have gone the "way of Cain"(murders out of jealousy and loving of the works of their own hands). They have erred in the error of Balaam(change the Word for profit and lure the sons of Israel to marry the world). They have rebelled in the rebellion of Korah (not subject to Jesus, head of the Body- even as Moses was head of Israel).

Like Esau they have exchanged their own inheritance rights for a bowl of "pottage" (gruel made from waste products, I COUNT ALL THINGS AS LOSS IN VIEW OF THE EXCEEDING VALUE OF BEING APPREHENDED BY THAT FOR WHICH I WAS APPREHENDED-priesthood, sonship, stewardship, ministers of reconciliation and restoration). Jacob was a Striver, but he SAW THE VALUE AND WRESTLED for the inheritance.

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:16-19)

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect(mature), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same  standard to which we have attained.
(Php 3:7-16)