Is everyone justified?

[NinjaWizards777]

but people cant do anything until Christ reveals God to them (mat 11:27)

blah, idk. everyone is saved in the end, whatever lol

[Seth]

Yes, everyone is saved IN THE END, which is what Paul describes in 1 Cor 15. Then the end comes and each man is given life IN CHRIST to his own order.

Romans 7 describes how the law kept us separated from God because SIN used the law to become exceeding within us. God reconciles the problem by removing the partition so that man can recieve the life in Christ that saves them from bondage. That is the progression from reconciliation to salvation.

Because God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean we don't HAVE sin. It just means it is not being counted in the manner of the law. Even John says that if we say we are without sin, we lie to ourselves. HAVING sin, though it is not imputed by law, is the problem that salvation solves.

[WhiteWings]

Yes, everyone is saved IN THE END, which is what Paul describes in 1 Cor 15. Then the end comes and each man is given life IN CHRIST to his own order.

1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

What is the difference between the first fruits group and the group that belongs to Him?
There seems to be another group mentioned below.
Three groups in total?


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
-> Jesus comes at the start of that 1000 years.
-> So the group mentioned below isn't part of the above mentioned groups (unless they died in the 1000 years)

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

[Seth]

I think the final group is mentioned in the same chapter. Each man to his order. First Christ, then his at his coming, then comes the end when Christ subdues all enemies to the kingdom, for he shall reign until he puts all enemies under his feet. Then he hands everything to God to be all in all. Three groups: Christ, his, and enemies.

[jabcat]

"whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved"...IMO, not "already is and don't yet know it"...Seems to me that one way to look at it is, because God says something WILL happen, in a sense, is the same as already done, because you can bank on it, write it down...He'll do it.  However, as I understand, Paul says there's a process, stages if you will, that He will vivify all...as WW quoted, each in his own order.  Some now, not all yet, but the rest later. 

The price has been paid...The way of the cross, Jesus' blood, has made the provision for that to occur, God reconciling Himself to man...all in the timing of God's PLAN.  My understanding of it.

[NinjaWizards777]

the universalist books/artices ive read so far say that everyone is saved in one sense yet in another sense needs to be saved in a process. So I guess Im just missing something


whatever, I dont know whats true anymore

[jabcat]

I understand.  Since coming into view of UR I've wondered over the same thing, and it can be confusing.  The best I can understand right now is as I mentioned above;  that the price has been paid...the way of the cross, Jesus' blood, has made the provision for a) some to be given faith to believe in this lifetime...the ecclesia, saved for the purpose of serving to bring in b) the rest that will be saved, "in His presence", when every knee will bow and every tongue confess.  Ask God to specifically show you.  He will.

[Texas Son]

One of my favorite Christian writers is Miles Stanford. He has gone home into glory in the late 90's. He authored "The Green Letters" among many other books. To my knowledge he is not of the UR mindset but he has wonderful writings about sanctification.

One of the points that he stress is "condition" vs. "position". We are already blessed "with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Eph 1:3). These blessings already belong to us positionally. However, conditionally, we are having to grow into these promises. This is the sanctificatin process. As we begin to walk in and grow in the Spirit, the things of this world begin fading away. We begin to appropriate more and more of what the Spirit has to offer us. So our condition begins to rise to meet our position.

This is how I am beginning to understand UR. Our position in Christ was bought and paid for by His blood. Even those who know nothing about their Savior already has this wonderful promise of position awaiting them. Their condition however is such that they have no understanding of their position and so have not yet begun to experience spiritual growth.

[jabcat]

Hi TS...where do you think the statements come in such as shall be saved and others indicating (to me) a specific time of faith/belief being given, and then (as I see it) entering into the state of salvation/being saved?  In essence, the statements such as the jailor was told to do then he would be saved?

I tend to think of the "blessed with all spiritual blessings" pertaining to those currently saved...

P.S.  I do think for us UR'ers this is an area that's a little hard to understand...I think I'll do a search for more verses that indicate X occurs, then Y and Z...(all still a gift of God).

[jabcat]

Here's several verses that indicate to me that there's a "this happens", then one is saved...rather than all are already saved and just don't yet know it.  I know that's a popular POV in UR, but I personally don't think it's accurate.
 
whosoever believeth in him will not perish  John 3:16

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  John 1:12

they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved  Acts 16:31


These two are especially interesting to me;  "were reconciled" and "now justified", yet still SHALL BE saved

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved  Romans 5:9

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:10


and a couple more;

if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   Romans 10:9   That one especially seems to indicate "X occurs, then Y"...


Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved  10:13

even so in Christ shall [not already are] all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

Could the teaching of "all are already saved most just don't yet know it" stand in the way of someone actually believing and confessing, if they've been taught "you don't need to do that, you're already saved"?      That's actually one of my concerns, that there could be some critical/crucial deception in this area. 

As a little example;  if a "Gospel of Inclusion" minister has Buddhists and Muslims "in full fellowship/acceptance" with them as a supposed part of the ecclesia, would they be more likely to think "I need Jesus", or "I'm OK because we're all one and all going to the same place anyway"?  I personally believe we are to witness and proclaim Jesus to them, not give them okey-dokey.  I believe I've read where Gary A. has some of those same concerns...regardless, these are mine.

[chuckt]

Chuckt, I would probably word it different myself to say that all are reconciled yet most are asleep. And what we are saying is that each man in his order will be SAVED FROM their sleep/sin now that they have been reconciled.

yes you are right, because salvation entails knowledge of it, thanks.

chuckt

[Seth]

the universalist books/artices ive read so far say that everyone is saved in one sense yet in another sense needs to be saved in a process. So I guess Im just missing something


whatever, I dont know whats true anymore

When I was a ETer, I always equated hell with being saved and unsaved. So I was always taught that I GOT saved, when I believed in Christ, then I could be sanctified as an important side benefit. It was easy for people to debunk hell for me because it's pretty obvious how false it is. However, what was not so easy was to realign my concept of salvation. I was so used to focusing on salvation as a PAST event that it took years to understand what the Bible teaches about it.

What I have seen in UR, and I went this way too for a moment, is that since we are so used to viewing salvation from a one-time past perspective, some folks tend to mix reconciliation up with salvation, thereby keeping salvation in the past tense, and removing the Biblical mandate to "walk in steps of faith" to be righteous.

But now, after years of study, reasoning, and head scratching, I have come realize that sanctification and salvation are not separate concepts. Sanctification is the process of salvation, and salvation is today. This is why Paul says "He that endureth to the end shall be saved." That rings true to me because I now know that enduring to the end is what salvation from sin is all about (ie not returning to Egypt/the mind of the flesh).

I always try to remember this:

Mat 1:21
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from (Gk- "apo) their sins.

That word "from" is from "apo." That means "away" and Strong's notes that it is usually used to denote separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc. In other words, Jesus is named Jesus (Jehovah saves) because he will save his people away from their sins. He will cause them to be separated, or depart, or cease, or reverse from their sins. That is an active connotation rather than a passive one that says they are already "ceased from sin" when they are not.

With the above mission statement verse dealing with salvation, it is impossible to say that someone is reversed, or departed or ceased from sin when they are still in slavery. What happens in certain UR camps is that they confuse RECONCILIATION with SALVATION which leads them to believe in a passive form of salvation.

They will say that because God is not imputing sin to mankind, then he is AUTOMATICALLY also imputing righteousness. This is a false dilemma: which is when you say that A does not apply, therefore B is the only other option, when there is a whole alphabet of options. Just because God is not counting up men's sins by the law, does not mean he is counting them up as righteous. Again, God simply removed the partition that separated man from being able to be saved away from sin. That is reconciliation, not salvation.

This salvation starts with "his people." Eventually, when God is all in all, "his people" will be all.

[Seth]

Ninja, not sure if you would be interested, but I have done much research on this topic and wrote a piece about it.

http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm

[willieH]

willieH: Hi NW777...   

the universalist books/artices ive read so far say that everyone is saved in one sense yet in another sense needs to be saved in a process. So I guess Im just missing something


whatever, I dont know whats true anymore

We are ALL "saved in a process" bro... As Seth has noted, sin remains even though we KNOW CHRIST...  We, with God, must ENDURE the process, which includes the process of "SUFFERING" while in this life...

IN that suffering do we follow HIM -- Heb 2:10 --

You are either called to walk in good works (which are the "works" of CHRIST, IN you = righteousness) or, ...you are not. 

The Jews (God's own people), must WAIT their "turn"  to "know" Him -- Rom 11:25 -- for even though they were FIRST "chosen" to have FAITH and walk in it, via Abraham... they are to be LAST concerning the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

If God is calling you to walk in the FAITH of CHRIST... which is the combination of the TWO, then you shall walk accordingly as it is written -- Eph 2:11 -- and in that "calling" shall your walk occur...

In either case, NW... you will be saved, so try as you are able to "lose" your anxiety bro, and LIVE as you are called... (which I believe is CHRIST)

Remember this... There is NOTHING you can DO to "gain" Salvation -- Eph 2:8-9 -- the same is true in the opposite... there is NOTHING that YOU can DO to "lose it" either... for CHRIST ...IS... the Savior of ALL.   

And NOT even ONE of our "works" can be considered as the means BY WHICH we were "saved"... except CHRIST "DO" the work -- Psalms 127:1 -- Psalms 102:16 --  The house is BUILT by GOD, ...not man.

Man "builds" BABYLON...

...willieH 

[martincisneros]

Here's several verses that indicate to me that there's a "this happens", then one is saved...rather than all are already saved and just don't yet know it.  I know that's a popular POV in UR, but I personally don't think it's accurate.
 
whosoever believeth in him will not perish  John 3:16

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  John 1:12

they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved  Acts 16:31


These two are especially interesting to me;  "were reconciled" and "now justified", yet still SHALL BE saved

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved  Romans 5:9

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:10


and a couple more;

if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   Romans 10:9   That one especially seems to indicate "X occurs, then Y"...


Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved  10:13

even so in Christ shall [not already are] all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

Could the teaching of "all are already saved most just don't yet know it" stand in the way of someone actually believing and confessing, if they've been taught "you don't need to do that, you're already saved"?      That's actually one of my concerns, that there could be some critical/crucial deception in this area. 

As a little example;  if a "Gospel of Inclusion" minister has Buddhists and Muslims "in full fellowship/acceptance" with them as a supposed part of the ecclesia, would they be more likely to think "I need Jesus", or "I'm OK because we're all one and all going to the same place anyway"?  I personally believe we are to witness and proclaim Jesus to them, not give them okey-dokey.  I believe I've read where Gary A. has some of those same concerns...regardless, these are mine.

For the longest time, I seemed like I stood just about alone regarding this, but thankfully, I am starting to see the call to repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus that's mandated in Luke 24, Acts 17, Acts 20, and various other places start to become increasingly common among UR folks that are sharing the Gospel.  And Matthew 28 says that the nations are to be taught to observe all things which Jesus taught.  I believe it's page 180 in the Hope Beyond Hell book that's got the altar call on it.  And I've seen the call to embrace His Lordship on the God's Truth For Today website as well.  Some have tried to say that the repentance part was only mandated of Israel, but I believe it can be argued that St. Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles and he's emphasizing it among Gentiles in Acts 17 and Acts 20.  And I believe it can be further Biblically argued that Luke's Gospel was written for as much a Gentile mind as a Jewish one, and that Gospel closes with repentance being taught in His Name to all nations. 

Mark's Gospel begins with the call to repentance as the beginning of Jesus' Gospel. And again, Luke 24 says to preach this to all nations.  And Luke's Gospel in that 24th chapter says that this must be fulfilled as something prophesied about Him in the Law, Prophets, and Psalms as to what would be preached in His Name in all nations.  So, it's not only a blatant disregard for the Gospel for someone claiming to preach it not to, but it's a total disregard regarding God's Written Judgments that we're supposed to be executing.  Judgment day is everytime you share the Gospel with someone, if that helps to clarify that for anyone or to give them more food for thought.  Judgment, chastisement, exhortation, edification, comfort, instruction in righteousness, and equipping for every single good work comes from the preaching of the Gospel.  So, what Hagee calls "sloppy agape" Biblically honestly will burn in the deepest Hell with Hitler and others because of the warnings in Paul's, James's, Peter's, and Jude's writings to those that would be ministers of the Gospel Dispensation.  Biblical doctrine is a sacred trust and we must be faithful stewards of the mysteries of God, and we must hold back nothing that would be profitable to our hearers.

[jabcat]

Amen Martin.  I know about feeling like you're standing alone, I can feel a little lonely too  .  Still, I just don't believe we're "all saved in a process",  "it's just being revealed, etc.".  I'm afraid there's some subtle deception in that area.

IMO, the NT is clear that there is a specific time when faith is given INDIVIDUALLY to believe.  Not of our works, it's God's works through and in us...but not some general declaration and all we've got to do is accept that we're OK.  The NT is full of "believe, receive, call, call upon, confess" etc...again, not us doing it or attaining it in any way, rather God choosing who and when, and empowering/providing the faith...but still, each and every time, a specific visitation and divine appointment between each person and Jesus the Messiah.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...

How areya bro?  Well, I hope... 

Here's several verses that indicate to me that there's a "this happens", then one is saved...rather than all are already saved and just don't yet know it.  I know that's a popular POV in UR, but I personally don't think it's accurate.
 
whosoever believeth in him will not perish  John 3:16

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  John 1:12

they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved  Acts 16:31


These two are especially interesting to me;  "were reconciled" and "now justified", yet still SHALL BE saved

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved  Romans 5:9

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:10


and a couple more;

if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   Romans 10:9   That one especially seems to indicate "X occurs, then Y"...


Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved  10:13

even so in Christ shall [not already are] all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

That we are TIME BOUND beings, ...time oriented terms must be used in communicating WITH us... If God spoke from HIS ETERNAL platform, how could we as FINITES, "reason" with Him?  He DID speak from time to time in ETERNAL terms, just to show where He really IS and where we are really BOUND to BE... but for the moment, we ARE ...IN TIME... and thus the "shall's, will-be's, etc. appear in the dialogue... 

Could the teaching of "all are already saved most just don't yet know it" stand in the way of someone actually believing and confessing, if they've been taught "you don't need to do that, you're already saved"?      That's actually one of my concerns, that there could be some critical/crucial deception in this area.

It is honorable that you consider what you preach as Sacred, and wish to attach TRUTH to every word you use, as you speak to another of God... You are a GOOD SON James... but know this:

ALL that occurs is in the Hand of the Potter brother J... No matter WHAT we preach, HIS PURPOSE shall BE found WITHIN the PROCESS... for HE is WORKING ALL THINGS, according to the counsel (advisement) of His WILL -- Eph 1:11

As a little example;  if a "Gospel of Inclusion" minister has Buddhists and Muslims "in full fellowship/acceptance" with them as a supposed part of the ecclesia, would they be more likely to think "I need Jesus", or "I'm OK because we're all one and all going to the same place anyway"?

GOD is NOT PARTIAL to ANY human being... so ALL partake according to the accomplishment of HIS PURPOSE and WILL, which is that NONE PERISH -- John 3:16 -- 2 Pet 3:9

Don't think for a minute that you (by any words which come from you) shall "re-invent" the "faith" of a Buddhist or Muslim, with the name of JESUS...  Only YHVH can call them to His SON... and if YHVH calls, then YHVH gives ears to HEAR that call... 

They shall not equate your use of the name JESUS, to "we're all gonna end up in the same place anyway" kind of thinking...

If one is called to KNOW the TRUTH of UR... then GOD shall enable them to KNOW.  What OUR calling is, ...is to present GOOD NEWS to anyone we encounter, and LEAVE OUT the BAD NEWS which RELIGION has invented to "scare them into staying put"...

I personally believe we are to witness and proclaim Jesus to them, not give them okey-dokey.  I believe I've read where Gary A. has some of those same concerns...regardless, these are mine.

If you join the work of God in simplicity... by proclaiming JESUS to them, then they shall either be prompted to inquire of details or not... according to ELECTION...

You and I do not determine who is ELECTED and who is not... We ALL walk a pathway which was placed before us to walk, and WALK it we shall...

To state to the one you are witnessing to, that GOD LOVES them beyond WORDS is TRUTH, and to state that GOD's Salvation is found IN JESUS, is also TRUTH... and to include REPENTENCE in that presentation is also TRUTH... the verses which provide the VISION that GOD shall save ALL, are still good texts to use in that witnessing... Use them, for they are GOOD NEWS... be confident in using them... If they were not meant to be used, they would not be there...

GOD shall, in calling that heart, avail questions IN that heart... as you use UR verses in your presentation of Him, to them, if it is intended they have questions...  What is wrong with preaching a LOVE that is ALL ENCOMPASSING?  Call me nuts, but as long as I have lived (63yrs), I have NEVER HEARD... any BETTER NEWS than this!

We are called to preach GOOD NEWS bro... and IN SUBMISSION to Him, take the GOSPEL (good news) to the world... leaving BEHIND the anxiety that wishes to impose upon us, CONCERN,  ...and in sincerity of heart, take the TRUTH to the world (as best we know it, relying on Him), ...leaving the results to Him...

"Concern" is worry, uncertainty, apprehension,  ...or even FEAR... 

If CHRIST is working within... what is there to be "concerned" about?  And if we are "concerned" about the GOOD NEWS, ...is not DOUBT is sitting upon our doorstep?  How may we be effective in our witness of it?

I think we are thereby "getting in our own way"     

Me & UR ---> <--- Me & MY "concern"  ...taking the GOSPEL to the world...

when we should be...

JESUS --->  <--- Me & UR ...taking the GOSPEL to the world...

Don't get me wrong bro... I encourage you to be aggressively seeking more and more from God... but in the meanwhile, ...walk in confidence and Faith, that you ARE where you ARE, because God has you, ..."right where He wants you!"

Preach the TRUTH in PEACE bro, and without attaching FEAR to it... you will do just fine... PEACEFULLY and LOVINGLY allieviating those "concerns" which presently seem to be holding you within their grip... 

...willieH 

[jabcat]

Hey Bro Willi.  I am in much agreement with what you say.  As I understand, we are called to be true witnesses, including much of what you said above and how you said it.  The (perhaps) place we may see a little differently is this (which I believe some do, at least in principle);  I believe there's a difference between slapping (just for the sake of discussion) a Muslim on the back, saying "brother, come on in...we're all God's children, you pray to Mohammed/Allah, I believe in praying to Jesus, but we're all already saved anyway, so don't you worry about it" vs. saying "I love you and I'd like to introduce you to Jesus, Savior of the world.  Scripture says if you'll call on His name, confess Him as Master, you'll be saved.  He died on the cross and rose again for your salvation.  Would you like to pray to Him now?  I'll pray with you".  If God chooses that individual for salvation in this lifetime, then they'll be saved.  If not, then they'll be saved later, all according to His timing and PLAN. 

Still His sovereignty, but our calling to spread the Good News, be a witness to be used to "bring them in"...as God sees fit.  Working through this bro, we're moving forward  .

[jabcat]

P.S.  I'm reminded of "how will they believe in Whom they haven't heard, and how will they hear [unless we tell them]?"  Don't be mislead.  I'm much better at talking about this than doing it  , but it's still what I believe. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James... 

Amen Martin.  I know about feeling like you're standing alone, I can feel a little lonely too  .  Still, I just don't believe we're "all saved in a process",  "it's just being revealed, etc.".  I'm afraid there's some subtle deception in that area.

I don't belittle you for your observation bro... but I do see as veiled, the notation that SUBTLE DECEPTION is in place for those who might see this a little differently than Martin and yourself...   

No worries, you guys are welcome to view this as you do, ...and I don't see this as offensive... I know we are all able to see only PARTIALLY that which is TRUTH... and are in the PROCESS  ...of gaining a greater vision of it as we fervently continue to study and pray...

Something that is "BEING REVEALED" is a PROCESS!  ...As man seeks scientifically to observe the world in which he lives... ALL KNOWLEDGE it accumulates as time goes on and study + research continues,  ...ALREADY IS knowledge to GOD... yet science moves ahead, one step at a time... and learns IN a PROCESS, what GOD (already) Eternally KNOWS...

When a child is born, he will not jump up to his feet... he will (eventually) crawl, then (eventually)  topple over, and eventually IN the process of WALKING, ...learn to do so... 

EVENTUALLY marks the manifestation of a PROCESS... step 1, ...then step 2, ...then step 3, etc. = a PROCESS

The REVELATION of JESUS is not something that comes to ANYONE, ...ALL at ONCE, even though it IS as it IS and never changes -- Heb 13:8 -- Its process occurs according to GOD... and is AVAILED to us, a little at a time, ...piece by piece -- 1 Cor 13:9-12 -- Do you KNOW as you are KNOWN?  Is that which is COMPLETE, arrived in our TIME and not in Paul's?

Unless we NOW have ALL the ANSWERS... then our "KNOWLEDGE" of JESUS CHRIST is INCOMPLETE... and therefore is still IN a PROCESS of ...being COMPLETED...

IMO, the NT is clear that there is a specific time when faith is given INDIVIDUALLY to believe.  Not of our works, it's God's works through and in us...but not some general declaration and all we've got to do is accept that we're OK.  The NT is full of "believe, receive, call, call upon, confess" etc...again, not us doing it or attaining it in any way, rather God choosing who and when, and empowering/providing the faith...but still, each and every time, a specific visitation and divine appointment between each person and Jesus the Messiah.

Again, these are observations from a TIME oriented platform... GOD ...IS... All in ALL... this has yet to be, manifest IN TIME... what ALREADY IS, a FACT in ETERNITY... GOD changes NOT!

So that which HE IS... He has ALWAYS BEEN, and "shall" ALWAYS BE (for "time" oriented stipulators)

But the TRUTH from ETERNAL perspective ...IS... that GOD has never EVER, ..."ALWAYS been" or,  ..."ALWAYS will be"... He ALWAYS ...IS...

"Always Been" & "Always will be" are ETERNAL condescensions to accomdate our limited, finite, and "time-oriented", minds.

bro...

...willieH 

[jabcat]

Bro Willi, the veiled statement opens an interesting piece of this discussion, IMO.  Because as I "see" it  , we're all veiled to some extent(s).  So much of what you say may be revealed, some of it still veiled to a degree, and same for me.  I have been influenced by deceit, I think we all have (didn't most of us believe in ET?).   So I'm not sure that necessarily my saying I believe there's some deception in this area is a veiled statement.  Maybe it is, or maybe the ones stating what I believe to be influenced by deception are the ones that are veiled  .   I think that's why we all, especially ME...and not always very good at it... need to be open to input and still able to learn, including God moving us away from things that are not accurate about Him or His ways.

So, we each present our understanding, and God will sort it out, revealing as He sees fit.  It's His PLAN and we're the participants  .

[Seth]

Jabcat (is it James?)

I definitely see what you are saying, and WillieH too. From the perspective shared in (I think) Romans 4, God is calling that which is not as though it is, we can rest assured that all is done, yet is being done. We can have peace in that AS we do the work of sharing Christ. Paul was so urgent to share the Promise of the Spirit with people that he became "all things to all people, so that he could save some." Of course he means "I, yet not I" when he talks about saving them.

I do agree with what you say though. Nobody sees the father apart from Christ. If we are to share the teaching that the gateway to life is narrow and the gatway to being lost is wide, then we should do it and accept our beatings for Christ (for our decidedly non-ecumenical behavior). Either that, or rejoice that they have come to Christ, rather than Bhudda et al, so that they can have the oneness in the Spirit that sets them free.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother James...

I believe there's a difference between slapping (just for the sake of discussion) a Muslim on the back, saying "brother, come on in...we're all God's children, you pray to Mohammed/Allah, I believe in praying to Jesus, but we're all already saved anyway, so don't you worry about it" vs. saying "I love you and I'd like to introduce you to Jesus, Savior of the world.

Scripture says if you'll call on His name, confess Him as Master, you'll be saved.  He died on the cross and rose again for your salvation.  Would you like to pray to Him now?  I'll pray with you".  If God chooses that individual for salvation in this lifetime, then they'll be saved.  If not, then they'll be saved later, all according to His timing and PLAN.

I'll pause this for a moment to comment... I do not believe that CHRIST intended us to "rectify" the religions of the world by bringing them to Christianity...  He sends us to the world, to preach the GOOD NEWS to those who are willing to listen... If they are willing, then HE is giving them ears to hear, and in fact is in the process of "DRAGGING them" to that witness...

If you are discussing JESUS with another, and he/she introduces to you that he/she is firmly against Christianity, because he/she is a "Muslim"... then this severs the conversation... 

Do YOU think this "Muslim" can convince you of ALLAH?  Of course he/she cannot!  So why would we insist, or even get into the details of UR with them?  They have their own vision of God which shall not be moved by any amount of insistence...

There is no need to insist JESUS upon one who is of another Religion... God does the calling brother... and it is not up to us to insist JESUS upon one who "believes" an alternative to Him...

 
Still His sovereignty, but our calling to spread the Good News, be a witness to be used to "bring them in"...as God sees fit.  Working through this bro, we're moving forward  .

I have been in both scenarios... witnessing to the "religious" and to the "athiest/agnostic" community as well...

I have found that there is more open-mindedness in the latter... 

The "religions" of the world are existent because GOD has deemed they exist.  And we are to be about the GOOD NEWS... not about redefining GOD to another who is already immersed in religions outside Christianity.

It is better to spend your witness to a person who doesn't believe there is a God or that isn't sure...  For in THIS area (IMO) are the "hedges and highways"...  Those who "believe" in ALLAH or BUDDHA or SATAN STAN... (I call "satan" STAN these days  )  are completely convinced of them and no amount of "back patting" or slick dialogue, is going to change their belief in these false "gods"...

It is YHVH who calls... and as witnesses, all we are and can ever hope to be, ...are "Guitars" in the EXPERT hand of the Chief Musician... 

He plays His HOLY MUSIC,  ...exclusively for a "LISTENING" audience...   

bro...

...willieH 

[jabcat]

Yes, very good Seth.  I also see what Brother Willi's saying, and much agree.  I also didn't mean to indicate that I don't believe there is a process at all, in many ways God's whole PLAN is a process.  I just believe we are individually given faith to believe, and then as believers called to witness to as much truth as we are given.  IMO, that's a big part of why God does save and keep us, ensuring we "endure to the end", to use us for His purposes and His glory.  (Plus He loves us a whole bunch  ).

[jabcat]

Willi, yes, I don't disagree with you.  I do agree.  By what I said I never intended for anyone to think I mean "insist".  That's not what I said nor meant.  But I either say/indicate "I'm OK you're OK, Buddha's a cool guy, you're already saved", or I say "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life...no man comes to the Father but by Him.  If you call upon His name you'll be saved".  And I INSIST that's what I'm saying  .