Author Topic: Is everyone justified?  (Read 3600 times)

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NinjaWizards777

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Is everyone justified?
« on: June 25, 2009, 05:13:23 AM »
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Texas Son

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 05:23:36 AM »
We are reconciled to God, made alive to Him, but I believe as Scripture declares that we are "justified by faith". So in my understanding the curse has been broken and paid for by Christ. He has reconciled us to God through His body. This means we again have a relationship with God. But "justification" means that we can stand before God without a certificate of decree against us (Col 2:14).

Although the work has been done by Christ completely, until one believes and confesses Christ as Lord then he cannot stand before God as justified. However, it will surely happen for every man -- in this age, or the age to come. "Every knee shall bow..."

TS

Offline Pierac

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 05:28:57 AM »
Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].


Offline jabcat

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 05:56:58 AM »
Although the work has been done by Christ completely, until one believes and confesses Christ as Lord then he cannot stand before God as justified. However, it will surely happen for every man -- in this age, or the age to come. "Every knee shall bow..."
TS

Amen!

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 -

Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do(His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

And Amen!
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 06:24:11 AM »
but then people talk about how everyone is already saved in a sense.

ughhh

This stuff frustrates me. I feel like I have to change my theological views on a daily basis.

Texas Son

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 07:30:56 AM »
but then people talk about how everyone is already saved in a sense.

ughhh

This stuff frustrates me. I feel like I have to change my theological views on a daily basis.

I ran into this argument with the elders of my church as I was stepping down from being an elder. I realized from listening to them how selfish I had once been towards others. It's the mentality of "what's in it for me?".

God's reward is unimaginable for His heirs. We store up our treasures in heaven. As faithful servants who believe and demonstrate God's love on earth, we build up those treasures where they belong. It's not a matter "why bother if everyone will be saved?", but a matter of being able to approach your heavenly Father as a faithful servant and son.

I believe the parable of the rich man and lazarus pertains to us as well. If we enter death without justification we will have a long "time-out" awaiting us. The rich man begged for a taste of cool water. I believe the cool water is the living water that Jesus claimed to be. Without justification by faith in this life, or this age, we will have to wait for the summation of the ages to get that relief on our parched tongue. But it will come...

Men cannot comprehend the unimaginable love of God. Even in our Christian carnal minds we have come to think we are more deserving than others. God's love knows no boundaries.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 07:41:25 AM »
The rich man begged for a taste of cool water. I believe the cool water is the living water that Jesus claimed to be.

I like that thought...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 07:50:57 AM »
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Darn, this verse is confusing me! lol Maybe I'll tackle it later, but I don't want my original message to stay up. xD
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 07:56:11 AM by Tim B »

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 08:08:14 AM »
but this is how I see it (and how people have been affirming up until here in this thread) we didnt CHOOSE or CONFESS to be condemned in adam...it was automatic as the result of his sin. and it says "so also" which seemingly says to me "in the same way" our justification comes through Christ. if its "in the same way" than it cant be by choice, it too must be automatic via Christs act of righteousness


see what Im saying?

Tim B

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 08:16:46 AM »
but this is how I see it (and how people have been affirming up until here in this thread) we didnt CHOOSE or CONFESS to be condemned in adam...it was automatic as the result of his sin. and it says "so also" which seemingly says to me "in the same way" our justification comes through Christ. if its "in the same way" than it cant be by choice, it too must be automatic via Christs act of righteousness


see what Im saying?

Well, maybe it's when were born into life with Christ that it applies. So, people are born into sin without their choosing, and they'll be born into righteousness/justification/life through Christ, when he saves them, without their choosing. (Remember, you are saved by grace, not by works, so not of your choosing.)

Offline Seth

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 08:25:26 AM »
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Ninja, I have been writing a bit about that here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6251.0 starting at around reply #21. Some of the things might address your question.

I'll try and give a short version here. No, not everyone is automatically justified. In Christianity, there is a alot of confusion about the difference between reconciliation and salvation and justification. We were reconciled to God at the cross, and the word reconcile in the Greek denotes a sense of "change." Many verses regarding reconciliation revolve around the sense that the reconciliation/change has to do with the fact that Christ put away the division between God and man which was the law. With the law out of the way, man's sins are not imputed, but that doesn't mean he doesn't HAVE sin, only that it isn't being counted up against him as an accuser. With the global peace made in this monumental change (ie no more necessity to be circumcised or keep away from the holiest place by way of priests), each person is now able to approach God for salvation from sin. Without the requirements of the law, now man can receive the Spirit which purifies and redeems us FROM iniquity.

The word "justification" comes from the word dikaioo. That word means "righteousness." In Romans 5, Paul writes about how the free gift is justification to all men; he means that the free gift is that due to reconciliation, all men SHALL be MADE righteous. The free gift is deliverance from sin for all people. But look in the beginning of Romans 6, where it says that "he who is dead is free from sin."

The word "free" is dikaioo. He is saying that whoever the Spirit makes dead TO sin is therefore freed from sin, and therefore dikaioo/righteous. This process of being freed from sin is the free gift that will be eventually given to all men...but each man will be made alive in his own order 1 Corinthians 15.

I guess that wasn't as short as I set out to make it. In short: everyone is reconciled by the putting away of the law, and everyone will be made justified/righteous in their order, which is the free gift.

Offline j.

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 08:36:36 AM »
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Ninja, I have been writing a bit about that here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6251.0 starting at around reply #21. Some of the things might address your question.

I'll try and give a short version here. No, not everyone is automatically justified. In Christianity, there is a alot of confusion about the difference between reconciliation and salvation and justification. We were reconciled to God at the cross, and the word reconcile in the Greek denotes a sense of "change." Many verses regarding reconciliation revolve around the sense that the reconciliation/change has to do with the fact that Christ put away the division between God and man which was the law. With the law out of the way, man's sins are not imputed, but that doesn't mean he doesn't HAVE sin, only that it isn't being counted up against him as an accuser. With the global peace made in this monumental change (ie no more necessity to be circumcised or keep away from the holiest place by way of priests), each person is now able to approach God for salvation from sin. Without the requirements of the law, now man can receive the Spirit which purifies and redeems us FROM iniquity.

The word "justification" comes from the word dikaioo. That word means "righteousness." In Romans 5, Paul writes about how the free gift is justification to all men; he means that the free gift is that due to reconciliation, all men SHALL be MADE righteous. The free gift is deliverance from sin for all people. But look in the beginning of Romans 6, where it says that "he who is dead is free from sin."

The word "free" is dikaioo. He is saying that whoever the Spirit makes dead TO sin is therefore freed from sin, and therefore dikaioo/righteous. This process of being freed from sin is the free gift that will be eventually given to all men...but each man will be made alive in his own order 1 Corinthians 15.

I guess that wasn't as short as I set out to make it. In short: everyone is reconciled by the putting away of the law, and everyone will be made justified/righteous in their order, which is the free gift.

Good word, Seth.  :thumbsup:

In addition, we can see in 1st Corinthians 15 that the "dead" shall be raised, and we shall "all" be changed. Not the living, not the do-gooders, but the "dead" (which is the one position none of us can escape). We will all be raised unto righteousness, but that is distinctly different from those who walk in the kingdom here and now.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 08:43:19 AM »
I posted this elsewhere, but I think it may be helpful here (or at least I'd like to say it  :bigGrin:).

"People have different understandings of this, but here's mine.  My understanding of the 'elect' is they are those God gives faith to believe in this lifetime...the 'chosen', which He uses for His purposes, including sharing the Good News with others.

IMO, they are those to whom He specifically, individually visits with His Spirit, convicts them of their need for Him, then gives them the faith to believe and turn to Him in trust as their Savior;  getting "saved".   I don't believe all are given that faith to believe unto salvation in this lifetime;  only some, the 'elect' or 'chosen'.  Thus scriptures like Romans 10:9  If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."  As an example, Jesus told the disciples that if He didn't speak to the people in parables, they would understand;  and that it hadn't been given to them to understand, it had been given to the disciples.

God's got a GREAT BIG PLAN.  I do believe all are predestined, but in our own order.  Some now, all later at the consummation.  My  :2c: .
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 09:48:05 AM »
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe.

My, as usual unorthodox, understanding of this.
Jesus never saved us all as in just magicly making us saved. He made a payment with His life. With that payment He bought the gifts of life. For each one that ever lived and will live He wrapped up that gift in a nice box and stored it somewhere. The only thing you have to do is to come and collect it. Can some not choose to collect it? Yes. But it's a prophesy that everyone  will come to collect the gift.

When looking a but further at the verse. (and contradicting what I wrote above....  :winkgrin:)
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The blue parts are added by the KJV translators. It can be 100% correct but also 100% wrong. Perhaps partly correct that for example the gift is not free. It requires a small payment in the form kneeling/turning to Jesus?
(ETs often say many don't accept 'the gift'. But those words are not in the original text so a very weak foundation to base a doctrine on)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 09:51:21 AM »
The word "justification" comes from the word dikaioo.
This is what Bullinger wrote about that word:
Quote
191.  "JUST", "JUSTIFY", ETC.
1. dikaios = just, righteous. From dike, right (see Ap. 177. 4).  Occ. eighty times; forty transl. "righteous"; thirty-three "just"; five times "right"; and thrice "meet".  In two places (Rom. 3:8.  Heb. 2:2) "just" is the rendering of endikos.  No other word in N.T. for "just", or "righteous".

2. dikaioo is to set forth as righteous, to justify.  Occ. forty times, of which fifteen are in Romans.  Always rendered "justify", except Rom. 6:7 ("freed"), and Rev. 22:11 ("be righteous").  The participle is transl. "justifier" in Rom. 3:26.

3. dikaiosune = righteousness.  Occ. ninety-two times, of which thirty-six are in Romans.  Always transl. "righteousness".  Other words to which the same transl. is given are dikaioma (see below), and euthutes, which latter occ. only in Heb. 1:8.

4. dikaioma is a righteous ordinance, a decree (of acquittal).  See Ap. 177. 4.  Rendered "righteousness" in Rom. 2:26; 5:18; 8:4.  Rev. 19:8; and "ordinance" in Luke 1:6.  Heb 9:1, 10 :  "judgment", Rom. 1:32. Rev. 15:4 :  "justification", Rom. 5:16.

5. dikaiosis = justification.  Occ. only in Rom. 4:25; 5:18.  The only other word rendered "justification" is dikaioma (see 4), in Rom. 5:16.
When he writes translated, he means translated in KJV.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 06:48:33 PM »
Good word, Seth.  :thumbsup:

In addition, we can see in 1st Corinthians 15 that the "dead" shall be raised, and we shall "all" be changed. Not the living, not the do-gooders, but the "dead" (which is the one position none of us can escape). We will all be raised unto righteousness, but that is distinctly different from those who walk in the kingdom here and now.

Hi j, good point. Jesus did not come to heal the well, or raise the living. He came to heal the sick and raise the dead, which is everyone  :happygrin:

This is always what I point to when people ask that timeless question: if everyone is saved, then why spread the gospel? I say, first of all not everyone is saved yet, and second, why would I want to deprive anyone of a chance to recieve the promised Holy Spirit?

Offline chuckt

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 06:51:44 PM »
wonder if all men are saved just many asleep.
2

Offline Seth

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 06:53:20 PM »
Chuckt, I would probably word it different myself to say that all are reconciled yet most are asleep. And what we are saying is that each man in his order will be SAVED FROM their sleep/sin now that they have been reconciled.



« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 08:04:17 PM by Seth »

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 09:20:38 PM »
I dont know, I guess I still ride with the idea that "everyone is saved, they just dont know it yet". Because think about it...whether someone has recieved the gift its still YOURS and youre still destinied to TAKE it. They may not know about that justification yet, but it was still paid FOR them and God KNOWS it, whether they do yet or not.

 When one "accepts" the gift they do so because God has revealed it to them as truth.  NOT because they knew it was truth, and politely declined because burning in hell sounds like fun. They werent awakened to the knowledge of their salvation in Christ...and if you dont know you have a million dollars in the bank you certainly cant benifit from it. I think thats what Jesus meant by being "born again" because you cant "see the kingdom" until you are awakened to Christ, nor can you benifit from it

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 09:21:59 PM »
extra post

Offline Seth

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 09:41:22 PM »
Quote
They werent awakened to the knowledge of their salvation in Christ

Ninja, the salvation in Christ is salvation from sin, not salvation while still toiling in it. People should be awakened to the knowledge of reconciliation, because as the Bible says "having been reconciled, how much MORE shall we be saved through his life." It is the by the inworking of Christ's life that delivers us from the bondage of the old man we were enslaved to.

You can't tell a prostitute or a thief or a murderer that they are saved from these things when they are still enslaved to them. However if you tell them that God, through Christ, has removed all impedances to come to Him, then they can believe and will be saved from what enslaves them.

Romans 4:11-12
That righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.


NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 09:45:28 PM »
Quote
They werent awakened to the knowledge of their salvation in Christ

Ninja, the salvation in Christ is salvation from sin, not salvation while still toiling in it. People should be awakened to the knowledge of reconciliation, because as the Bible says "having been reconciled, how much MORE shall we be saved through his life." It is the by the inworking of Christ's life that delivers us from the bondage of the old man we were enslaved to.

You can't tell a prostitute or a thief or a murderer that they are saved from these things when they are still enslaved to them. However if you tell them that God, through Christ, has removed all impedances to come to Him, then they can believe and will be saved from what enslaves them.

Romans 4:11-12
That righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.



see but thats not the type of salvation im talking about. Hence why i think there are two different "phases" of salvation, if you will.

What Im talking about is people being saved from the offense of their sins. if you take the greek meanings of the word "sin" the following reads thus:

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not [miss the mark]. But if anyone does [miss the mark], we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.   He is the propitiation for our [offense], and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

because of Christ, God cannot be offended by our sin.  its impossible. be you "saved" or in the world, God is not counting your sins against you because of the cross

Offline Seth

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 09:47:12 PM »
Your are talking about reconciliation, which is God not imputing sin against man by way of the law.

The bible is clear that salvation is MORE than reconciliation, and it comes by Christ's life. Jesus is named Jesus (Jehovah saves) for the explicit purpose of "saving his people FROM their sins." Telling someone they are saved FROM sin is not the same thing as telling them they are reconciled and sins are not imputed.

NinjaWizards777

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 09:49:44 PM »
but reconciliation is apart of salvation, no? people are already saved in that they are reconciled, but not yet awakened to their life in Christ which ALLOWS them to overcome the adamic nature within and have a relationship with God.'

Am I wrong here?

Offline Seth

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Re: Is everyone justified?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 09:53:56 PM »
Reconciliation LEADS to salvation. The Bible says we were reconciled by Christ's death, and MUCH MORE, we are saved by his life. One leads to the other. We are given the ministry of reconciliation and we plead in Christ's stead "be ye reconciled" to God. God has reconciled the world to himself by removing the middle partition of the law, NOW people can reconcile their minds to God by recieving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how, much more than being reconciled by his death, we are saved (from sin) by his life. That is why people are "justified" (ie made righteous) by grace through faith. Grace is what "teaches us to life godly in this present age." That is the salvation by His life that we are talking about.