Author Topic: Is everyone forgiven or not?  (Read 2407 times)

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Offline firstborn888

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Is everyone forgiven or not?
« on: October 15, 2007, 12:06:49 AM »
<< 1 John 2:2 >>

New American Standard Bible (1995)
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

propitiation: expiate, pay in full

expiate: To make amends or reparation for; atone.

This came up in the Mike Williams resource thread, but I thought I'd put it out here for discussion.

So what's the deal? We know 'lost' people in the world (and our own born again, Spirit filled selves for that matter) suffer and reap ugly consequences for walking in the flesh (sins/missing the mark). 

But, are they forgiven or not? Is it by knowledge (ie:Father forgive them, for the KNOW NOT what they do")? Is God still imputing sins to humanity, even after Jesus paid the price? Does He see all mankind as righteous through the blood? Is it up to each individual to 'see the light' and recieve the gift, or have they received it and just don't realize they have received it?

I had a strange experience just before posting this. I own a recording studio. The thing is sealed air tight about 20 times over and has no outside windows. It just so happens that I used the entrance AWAY from the light switches - all the light switches are in the control room. I thought I could navigate pretty well from memory, so I closed the door behind me and began 'feeling my way' through the various rooms. Mind you, it is absolutely pitch black in there, you cannot even see your hand in front of your face.
My mind was wandering and suddenly, I realized I had gotten completely turned around and could not figure out what room I was in. Picture this - multiple doors, multiple windows (room to room only - no outside windows) sound panels on the walls, they all felt the same. Feeling fairly embarrassed I realized that if I could not figure out where the control room was, I could be lost for a while. Feeling for clues, amps, drums anything to help me identify which room I was in - suddenly my hand was on the light switches - I had already been in the control room for some time but didn't even know it.
Of course, without any knowledge that I was there, all the production capabilities the control room afforded were absolutely useless to me. The equipment became just something I could trip over or smack my face into UNTIL I flipped the switches on and knew I was home free.

Would love to hear everyone's input. The most successful evangelism I've ever done is happening now, for the first time I'm telling 'lost' people "Jesus paid the price for you - you are forgiven" instead of "you CAN be forgiven". I really want to get this right, I don't want to be lying to folks!

  - byron
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 12:30:12 AM by firstborn888 »

Offline willieH

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 03:24:45 AM »
willieH: Hi 1stborn... :hithere:

<< 1 John 2:2 >>

New American Standard Bible (1995)
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

propitiation: expiate, pay in full

expiate: To make amends or reparation for; atone.

This came up in the Mike Williams resource thread, but I thought I'd put it out here for discussion.

So what's the deal? We know 'lost' people in the world (and our own born again, Spirit filled selves for that matter) suffer and reap ugly consequences for walking in the flesh (sins/missing the mark). 

But, are they forgiven or not? Is it by knowledge (ie:Father forgive them, for the KNOW NOT what they do")? Is God still imputing sins to humanity, even after Jesus paid the price? Does He see all mankind as righteous through the blood? Is it up to each individual to 'see the light' and recieve the gift, or have they received it and just don't realize they have received it?

MY  :2c:

The "SIN" problem, is taken care of, paid in FULL for ALL MEN... (John 1:29 / 2 Cor 5:19)

ACCOUNT of each of our lives must be made known (Lk 8:17 / Rom 14:12) as Scripture points out...

This "accounting" takes place, either CLOTHED in the WHITE RAIMENT (clothing) washed in the BLOOD of the Lamb... or exposed in the NAKEDNESS of our SHAME... (Rev 3:18)

If you will, ...an UNPLEASANT encore performance of what happened to Adam & Eve in the Garden... as they, in their SHAME appeared before GOD...

The JUDGMENT of our lives, which is either found abiding in Reward, or Loss in destruction by the CONSUMING Fire of the ALMIGHTY... (1 Cor 3:12-15)...

SALVATION being the result of either road traveled... (found and clothed in this life, or JUDGED and then clothed in the next)

ALL end up (from living IN TIME) washed in the BLOOD of the Lamb and are written in the BOOK of His life... AND will reflect YHVH in all points, to include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

pEAce...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS  ...willieH  :thumbsup:


giftsimple

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2007, 03:36:50 AM »
John 17:21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Offline Kratos

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2007, 03:51:11 AM »
I guess I will again be accused of being orthodox here, but I see that Christ paid the price for all to be saved and forgiven. The sin question is out of the way as far as God is conderned. That does not mean that everyone is in Christ or has been born again. Until we receive what He did for us by faith, what He did becomes of no effect for us.
We all continue to reap what we sow, but when He lights our candle, we are able to sow better seed and eventually reap better fruit. So, yes, all are forgiven. But, no, not all are saved or born again.

I do not believe like I have heard Carlton preach that all are already saved and most just do not know it yet. When I made Jesus my Lord, I was changed on the inside and did not just realize that I already was saved, but did not know it yet. We are all forgiven, but we have not all been changed by the power of regeneration. We all reap what we sow, but those who have been regenerated should be sowing better seed so reaping better lives.

John
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Seeking a Kingdom whose Builder and Maker is God

giftsimple

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2007, 04:08:22 AM »
We live in his life as He lives our lives in us!

No human being has ever experienced anything on earth ALONE!

At all times God was sharing His "feelings" and life with each person.

Isaiah 63:9. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

2 Corinthians 6:16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Offline dboutwell

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 04:36:00 AM »
Mods, Move this post if this is not the place for it..thanks     

Quote
He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I have a question. What if Christ had not been the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? What would happen to those who were left out?

Debbie
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 07:22:49 AM by dboutwell »
Blessings :)

Debbie

gatheredfragments

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 08:17:03 AM »
We are all forgiven, but we have not all been changed by the power of regeneration. We all reap what we sow, but those who have been regenerated should be sowing better seed so reaping better lives.

John

 :iagree:

Gen 3:9  And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

when i read this passage in the bible...i think ...God is not just asking where Adam physically is...he is asking where Adam is spiritually, mentally, and emotionally as well....

I can ask the same of myself....

Where am I?

When Adam and Eve fell their Creator sensed them separated from Him.  They were forgiven, but sent to live out the consequences of not considering 'where they were'. 

Where am I? 

Phi 2:12  So, then, my beloved, even as you always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, cultivate your salvation with fear and trembling,
Phi 2:13  for it is God who is working in you both to will and to work for the sake of His good pleasure.



I hope I haven't confused matters with my perspective here.   :thinking:


Offline dboutwell

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 03:18:32 PM »
Quote
He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


I have a question. What if Christ had not been the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? What would happen to those who were left out?

Debbie 

Any thoughts?

Since death was the punishment for sin, would the people whose sins were not paid for, just stay dead when they die? No hope of a resurrection?

just still trying to come to some conslusions....

Thanks,   :grin:
Blessings :)

Debbie

Gizmo

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2007, 05:37:49 AM »
So what's the deal? We know 'lost' people in the world (and our own born again, Spirit filled selves for that matter) suffer and reap ugly consequences for walking in the flesh (sins/missing the mark). 

I would challenge you to rethink your definition of who the bible describes as 'lost'.  Although certainly it is the prostitute et al, it is just as much the religious folk who merit God's favor.  Christians are HUGE at meriting God's favor.  How often have you heard you are not forgiven UNTIL you repent and believe.  A great question for these folks is "Besides repenting and believing, are there any other works I must do to be forgiven by God".

I would also rethink the meaning of 'walking in the flesh'.  Paul equats flesh and the law, so one meaning of the flesh is the impulse to be right with God by our works.  Again, for Christians their works are repenting and believing.

So the short answer to your ? is YES, every one is forgiven, or redeemed or reconciled.  Not everyone has knowledge of this or lets this knowledge work itself out in there lives, which is salvation.

Peace.

Giz

laren

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2007, 05:56:58 AM »
So the short answer to your ? is YES, every one is forgiven, or redeemed or reconciled.  Not everyone has knowledge of this or lets this knowledge work itself out in there lives, which is salvation.

Peace.

Giz

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline firstborn888

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2007, 09:13:13 AM »
   Let me explain why this subject is so important to me.

   God came to me when I was a completely demonized, Godless, selfish, sleazeball type person. His perfect love is what got my attention (anger and condemnation is what landed me in the ugly shape I was in) and even though there was absolutely no question that He was extending total forgiveness to me - just as clear was His mission to break the prison bars and set me free (from being the demonized, Godless, selfish, sleazeball type person I was).

   Crystal clear to me is this: JESUS = freedom. Period. To the degree you know Him, you are free, to the degree you are ignorant of Him you are bound. Grace is NOT passive - grace breaks sin's dominion.

  I've always asked this question: What good is a doctor who comes in and says "I'm not holding it against you that you are deathly ill, in fact, I don't blame you at all - I love you" and then leaves you there in the state he found you in?

  Here's my point: When I saw God's true nature and His position and intent toward me, it was overwhelming - the battle was over - ALL I wanted was Him. His perfection and selflessness is stunning, shocking, and I escaped the snares of sin by EXPERIENCING His freedom, joy, peace etc. etc. (ie: His example (nature) of perfect love.

  All the people in my face telling me how bad I and my sin were all those years did ZERO. God revealing His nature changed everything.

  That's why I want to get the message 'right'. Any sane person who sees the magnificance of perfect love I saw will be transformed by it. If we are 'veiling' the message by adding conditions (ie: what WE can do to please God) is that what makes evangelism so ineffective now days?

Please understand - I'm NOT talking about how believers should live or how church government should deal with sin, I'm talking about what is being presented to those in the world that don't have a clue.

  The 'gospel' came to me as a done deal. I think that's why it was/is so effective in my life. Are we afraid to present it as a done deal, thinking we are going soft on sin? Could we be hindering the work of grace by misrepresenting how absolute the forgiveness really is?

- byron

 

   

       

   
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 09:15:04 AM by firstborn888 »

Hennessey

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2007, 09:55:59 AM »
 :thumbsup: Awesome analogies Byron.

martincisneros

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2007, 10:35:13 AM »
I guess I will again be accused of being orthodox here, but I see that Christ paid the price for all to be saved and forgiven. The sin question is out of the way as far as God is conderned. That does not mean that everyone is in Christ or has been born again. Until we receive what He did for us by faith, what He did becomes of no effect for us.
We all continue to reap what we sow, but when He lights our candle, we are able to sow better seed and eventually reap better fruit. So, yes, all are forgiven. But, no, not all are saved or born again.

I do not believe like I have heard Carlton preach that all are already saved and most just do not know it yet. When I made Jesus my Lord, I was changed on the inside and did not just realize that I already was saved, but did not know it yet. We are all forgiven, but we have not all been changed by the power of regeneration. We all reap what we sow, but those who have been regenerated should be sowing better seed so reaping better lives.

John

BIGGEST AMEN AND HUGS

I'm personally starting to shy away from the word "Universalism" again because of this issue.  Forgiveness is completely out of the way, but Father's after Sonship.  I wandered into Carlton's brand of UR with the death and glory message, as some restorationists dubbed it a couple of centuries ago, and though at first glance it's the most healing message, it does lack something of His higher purposes.  I used to celebrate the pre organized Church that I guess some would hastily brand as the gnostic period of Christianity because there was diversity of opinion, but I'm starting to come back to Paul's comments in Corinthians and James' comments in his epistle about in such diversity, there's nothing but hopeless confusion and every evil work.

Telling people that they're forgiven apart from any context in a repentance message only comforts people in their sins rather than turning them on their sins.  And I'm not here to get the whole repentance debate started, but it obviously simply means a forsaking and a return to God's original - or Covenantal - intents.

All souls are His according to Ezekiel 18:4.  I'm not in the error on the other side, that some may hastily detect in my comments and want to pounce on, that allows for an equality of powers between the Kingdom of God's Dear Son and the Kingdom or Authority of Darkness.

A lot of this argument is because we're admitting a foundational validity to the whole Billy Graham, 4 Spiritual Law Campus Crusade for Christ shtick.  Matthew 28 says to make disciples of all nations.  He doesn't tell them to say whether they're forgiven or not, but to make disciples of all nations.  Reproduce the pattern of Christ in the government, in schools, on television, etc., etc., and just absolutely take over the world with Christian principles and make it EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE for people to live in filth and rebellion to the commandments of Christ - apart from a condemning context.

Has anybody, by any chance, read Kenneth Gentry's book "He Shall Have Dominion"?  Someone was telling me, in a context similar to this one where I said about the same, that with my recent conversion to Postmillenialism that I'd probably find it to be a very fabulous book, but I'm not interested in anything either overly Calvinist or overly Preterist.  I knew he'd made a comment a while back about writing it, but I didn't know if it was out yet when somebody surprised me the other day by telling me to get my hands on it.  Any chance anyone would know if it's a good book?  Anyway, not trying to hijack a thread with that inquiry.  Just click on my name on the side of this post, which I'm thinking takes you to my profile and send a private message if you know anything about it for certain one way or the other. :icon_king:

Gizmo

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2007, 11:42:12 PM »
Telling people that they're forgiven apart from any context in a repentance message only comforts people in their sins rather than turning them on their sins.

Are the 2 are mutually exclusive?  My understanding is that God no longer counts anyone's sin against them, so there is no need to repent for something God has done away with.  It would be like continuing to pay your mortgage after you paid it off.  It seems to me what people must repent of is their dead works...their Godless and vain attempt to merit God's favor.

I have found tremendous freedom in continually renewing my mind with the gospel...I am right with Him completely and utterly because of what He has done, and absolutely nothing I have done...not even believe.

Giz

Offline willieH

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2007, 12:29:30 AM »
Telling people that they're forgiven apart from any context in a repentance message only comforts people in their sins rather than turning them on their sins.

Are the 2 are mutually exclusive?  My understanding is that God no longer counts anyone's sin against them, so there is no need to repent for something God has done away with.  It would be like continuing to pay your mortgage after you paid it off.  It seems to me what people must repent of is their dead works...their Godless and vain attempt to merit God's favor.

I have found tremendous freedom in continually renewing my mind with the gospel...I am right with Him completely and utterly because of what He has done, and absolutely nothing I have done...not even believe.

Giz

 :goodpost:  Well said brother Giz...  :winkgrin:

Peace bro...  :Peace:

In  JESUS  ...willieH  :trampoline:

Michele

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2007, 01:09:55 AM »
Interesting thread.......it's quite an irony when you sit down and think about it.

While everyone is lost......the world is won.  It's strange to think about especially when you consider all these things we've each done. :HeartThrob:

Hennessey

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2007, 01:25:32 AM »
Dog gone it Giz that was an awesome post!  :thumbsup:

Michele

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2007, 02:39:22 AM »
That is a good post Giz......I think it's important that people understand that repentance is not a beating yourself up over the past, but a change of mind/heart and a fresh move forward.  :HeartThrob:

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2007, 02:42:49 AM »
Telling people that they're forgiven apart from any context in a repentance message only comforts people in their sins rather than turning them on their sins.

Are the 2 are mutually exclusive?  My understanding is that God no longer counts anyone's sin against them, so there is no need to repent for something God has done away with.  It would be like continuing to pay your mortgage after you paid it off.  It seems to me what people must repent of is their dead works...their Godless and vain attempt to merit God's favor.

I have found tremendous freedom in continually renewing my mind with the gospel...I am right with Him completely and utterly because of what He has done, and absolutely nothing I have done...not even believe.

Giz


Single eye.................looking at what "HE" done!

Like that, Gizmo.

Offline firstborn888

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2007, 07:37:36 AM »
And then on the 'works' or 'manifestation' side (righteousness showing up in practical/tangible ways) we have this cycle of doing good for a while and then blowing it/guilt/shame, then doing better and feeling good about ourselves for another while then failing again. It's a vicious cycle. That's the life some (most?) of the people I know live. That's what makes me suspicious that some of us are missing something.

I say we should give up our own efforts for righteousness and be humble enough to let the righteousness of God be our only righteousness.   

I see Paul saying basically 'if I do what I don't want to do, then it's not even me who is doing it, but the sin that lives in me is doing it'. Sounds like the ultimate cop-out, right? But then He says that Jesus sets him free from the 'body of death', but admits his body is serving the law of sin, while his mind is serving the law of Christ.

 - b

   

Gizmo

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2007, 09:01:37 PM »
I think it's important that people understand that repentance is not a beating yourself up over the past, but a change of mind/heart and a fresh move forward.

Very true.  But it CANNOT be a fresh move forward by trying harder to stop some behavior that supposedly separates me from God.  To me that is more of the poison of the law.  To me, a fresh move forward is depending on Jesus' saving work ever deeper, purging me of sin consciousness.

Peace.

Giz

laren

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Re: Is everyone forgiven or not?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2007, 11:20:37 PM »
I think it's important that people understand that repentance is not a beating yourself up over the past, but a change of mind/heart and a fresh move forward.

Very true.  But it CANNOT be a fresh move forward by trying harder to stop some behavior that supposedly separates me from God.  To me that is more of the poison of the law.  To me, a fresh move forward is depending on Jesus' saving work ever deeper, purging me of sin consciousness.

Peace.

Giz


Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.

Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.