Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

[Zeek]

I just do not agree with any form of an us and them, mentality.

Hey Jer,
isn't that an interesting paradox?  By not agreeing with an "us versus them mentality", haven't you just created an "us versus them" mentality.  "Them" being those who believe in "us versus them mentality" and "us" being those who don't. 
??

Perhaps, but in reality it expresses a possible truth. Whereas, in your circular reasoning which may be derived from an inference of induction or deduction, is merely taking from the premise to prove the conclusion; proceeding from the known "us" to the unknown "them" and/or vice versa. It is difficult to put into words, but I see things as "we" are the ones who exhibit an apparently contradictory nature. And it is not about a them. For me, the Scriptures speak of One Man; each and every one of us.

"We all have our own houses to maintain."

 

[Taffy]

For me, the Scriptures speak of One Man; each and every one of us.

[redhotmagma]

I fully expect to go through more purifying after my physical body has died. I don't fear this. I welcome it. I can see myself looking over my life and seeing my missteps being pointed out in a loving way. I can see myself understanding how "love" in different situations would have prevented harm and hurt. I almost WELCOME this because I keep looking back already and seeing things I wish I'd done differently and thinking about how if I'd been more loving... etc. which pushes me to be more loving NOW. That is why I see the "lake of fire" as a good thing. As something that we walk through now and we walk through after this life. I say the more you can walk through it now the better. I don't know if that even makes sense, but it's the only way I can word it, I guess. 

This isn't a "oh you are so terrible!!!" type of thing... but more of an instructional, God holding my hand and helping me to learn MORE about HIM through the actions of MY life. The more we allow His love to permeate our being... the more we are becoming who we were always meant to be, and WILL be.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of this.
But I don't really see the point if this DOESN'T happen.
This world is a schoolyard.
Seems to me the most learning is actually going to happen AFTER we go home.

well, just some thoughts.

So you see the continuing "purifying" being done after this literal life, for what you did when you were literally alive??

or

do you think you will still be carnal in the next "life"?

Yes, I see the continuing purifying being done after this literal life.

This is a bit more of where I'm coming from, how I see life, etc. so hopefully you'll understand more of where I'm coming from with my perspective.

I see this world as a schoolyard (for the most part.) I see every single life as being ESSENTIAL. Everything happening is going to eventually end up teaching us ALL more about God. What is God? God is love. We're here to learn about our Creator. Through this contrast of "good" (love) and "evil" non-love, that which is devoid of love.

I see my life, not just teaching ME.... but somehow in some way, teaching EVERYONE, every human being...something MORE about love. I see every single happening, every single life, everything... from the mundane experiences, to extremely intense experiences, every single thing, every single life, human, animal, etc. EVERYTHING.... will somehow end up teaching us ALL...SOMETHING MORE about God.

Every life lived is a thread in the tapestry. We can't see the big picture now, but one day we will. And every life will benefit every other life. in some way. AS a whole. and individually.

I have no idea HOW. But this is just the only thing that makes sense to me.

Our current suffering will in no way compare to the glory that is to be revealed.
Our suffering is teaching us... now, and it will culminate in an eternal "lesson" (not sure how else to word that) anyway, an eternal "lesson" of LOVE. of Who GOD is.

I think that we need to go through this life.... this physical life on earth, all of us...to experience the contrast so that we can KNOW WHO God is. (this life being the "current suffering" we as a whole are experiencing on our road to God being revealed to us.) so that we can BASK in HIS glory, BASK in His love and EXPLORE HIM and truly LEARN about Him for all eternity. I think we must all first come to the realizing that HE IS LOVE. That is the first thing that we must all come to KNOW. If we had been like Adam and Eve before the fall, we would never truly KNOW who God is. or what LOVE is. We would never know. WE would be totally ignorant. I think the first thing we need to learn is that He IS love. It's almost like we are standing on the outside of a fence. Inside the fence is God. Before we can go and be with Him and hang out and explore Him, we have to get over the wall. We have to understand WHO He is FIRST before we can truly start to explore Him.  This exploring Him will just never end. Look around at this earth. Everything on this earth reflects Him in some way. After all these years we haven't even discovered all of the animals that are here!! Something tells me that there is infinite more things that reflect Him. (This basking in and exploring Him is the "glory to be revealed" that cannot compare to this short time of suffering that creation is subjected to.) We all take part in climbing over the wall on our path back home. We have to learn through experience. It's the only way. It's the only way I think a God who is "love" would have His beloved creatures learn of Him. To just go ahead and walk it. We each walk a path as brothers and sisters.

When I say that we will be purified AFTER we die (physical death)... what I mean, is I think that we will reflect back and see the contrast between love and non-love in our lives. It isn't meant to hurt us, it's meant to prepare us, to assist us in learning about our Creator. What better way than to actually walk through the contrast and literally experience it?

I really do think that somehow, (again I have no earthly idea how this will happen) but I think that every life story... everything will serve as some sort of monument, some sort of man, I don't know... a testament? A memorial? A book of life? SOMETHING that all creation will look at and marvel at.
Our whole experience here in this "physical" life, this carnal life, this walk through the knowledge of "good and evil" will serve it's purpose for ALL of us. We will all SEE everything and understand the workings of love and non-love through every single thing happening on this earth.

Then there will come the time when "the former things have passed away..." because this life has served it's purpose... and now we can get on with the "glory to be revealed".

I do believe that we die a physical death, but our spirit/soul goes on and we given a new glorified body. I don't see why it can't be similar in ways to our physical natural body. I see it as being more REAL than our bodies now. Incorruptible, imperishable. I don't believe that we turn into wispy wisps of nothingness. I think we will all take on a real form. Perhaps the form has the power to change, I have no idea what our glorified bodies will be like, but there are certain things that I won't rule out.

hmmm.

If this did not make sense. Just let me know.
I hate not feeling like I understand what the heck a person is saying...so if that is what you are feeling right now, let me know. and I will do my best to reword stuff. I don't mind at all.
These are just my thoughts, ideas, ponderings.

Mostly just... ponderings I guess.
Of a sister just trying to make sense of what God has planned for us.
And what this life is for.

peace.

this is my feeling about it all too

[reFORMer]

I think there is more weight to be given to God's discipline than teaching.  Illumination leads to inspiration; but, discipline brings change.  In much bliss or pain we tend not so much to judge ourselves but are instead subjected to powers that affect our way.  Because of the glory that's coming "the former things will not be remembered, or even brought to mind."  But there is a "Manchild" which is born out of the former creation which is the image and likeness of God.

[eaglesway]

I think there is more weight to be given to God's discipline than teaching.  Illumination leads to inspiration; but, discipline brings change.  In much bliss or pain we tend not so much to judge ourselves but are instead subjected to powers that affect our way.  Because of the glory that's coming "the former things will not be remembered, or even brought to mind."  But there is a "Manchild" which is born out of the former creation which is the image and likeness of God.

amen yup true and beautiful- I call that good news

[Cardinal]

 

[redhotmagma]

A part of corrective discipline is an understanding of why wrong is wrong. Watching a movie of our entire life and maybe that of the entire history of humans where we maybe feel the consequences of our actions would be some serious discipline. Something akin to a christmas carol except maybe from Gods perspective (like we feel other peoples pain, hurt) Im operating from the mindset of being made in His image to understand the difference between good and evil, and whats the point of this life anyway.

[micah7:9]

Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

If He did, this would contradict too many scriptures. The dead know nothing. (The bible tells me so.)

So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

I believe the spirits which were incarcerated were stubborn to what they were supposed to be doing during that wicked time. It is possible they were trying to wreck Noah's building of the ark so God had to jail them. Christ, after He was vivified, went to them and heralded to them most likely that He is now conquered all.

And what about this verse:

1 Peter 4:1-6 CLV  Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins,  (2)  2 by no means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will of God."  (3)  For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries, drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries,  (4)  while they are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;"  (5)  who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.  (6)  For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

Those dead [to God] the evangel went to were to be judged (set straight) as to their lifestyles as revealed in verses 3 & 4 above. If they were alive [to God] they would not have been involved in those bad things. So the evangel went to them "so that they should be living to God, in spirit."

So, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.

Agreed! 

[eaglesway]

A part of corrective discipline is an understanding of why wrong is wrong. Watching a movie of our entire life and maybe that of the entire history of humans where we maybe feel the consequences of our actions would be some serious discipline. Something akin to a christmas carol except maybe from Gods perspective (like we feel other peoples pain, hurt) Im operating from the mindset of being made in His image to understand the difference between good and evil, and whats the point of this life anyway.

This also very beautiful and true and what I think the Great White Throne and the lake of Fire is all about

Romans 2:14-16 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Rev 1:14-16 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

1 Cor 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Matt 10:26 "Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Jer 11:20 O LORD of Heaven's Armies, you make righteous judgments, and you examine the deepest thoughts and secrets.

1 Cor 13-15 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

[sheila]

Did Christ preach the gospel to the dead while in His grave.   YES!!!!!


   as we did. while in the confusion of babylon[[Proverbs7; 27]]  her house is a highway to the grave,leading down into the chambers of death.].it was the very gospel of

condemnation to the kingdom of darkness... the wicked...those dead spiritually[though unwittingly

  we at times   applied such message of condemnation to mankind]the dead body of Christ[Christendom] continues to preach to the dead

  of the fiery consumation that will torment them. You offspring of vipers,how will you escape being condemned to hell[Matt 23;33]


   now the dead preach to the dead.....the message of death........but the LIVING SPEAK TO THE LIVING THE GOSPEL OF Eternal  LIFE

   whom did He appear to,when resurrected? who did He preach to?....none but the living[Psalms 115;17   It is not the dead who praise the Lord,

those who go down to silence,it is we who extol the Lord,both now and forever more]


   Luke 9;60  Jesus said to him,'LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR OWN DEAD,BUT YOU GO AND PROCLAIM THE KINGDOM OF GOD"

  there are those that die once[mankind..for it is appointed unto all men to die once..then the resurrection[FIRST RESURRECTION FOR MANKIND ONLY]

  at the end of 1000year reign of Christ...secound resurrection occurs[satan released from abyss  to go to everlasting cutting off...secound eternal death]

[what 'star' fell from heaven and released satan[accusor of the brethern?]....whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven,whatever you loose

on earth is loosed in heaven[Rev 3;16 and Rev 1;16]


   as we have been partakers of suffering[being killed all day long] so we will  releif and Glory at His coming

[WhiteWings]

I've read an article I can't remember the details of; but the point was that Jesus was dead, didn't decent into hell, etc.
But His resurrection itself was the gospel for the dead.

[Cardinal]

  And that article's author would be wrong.....David said though I make my bed in hell, You are there....

[sheila]

Yeah, He preached to the dead in the grave......ex; Lazarus come out!!...the time is coming when all those in the grave will hear His voice and come out

First resurrection=all mankind with Christ's atonement sacrifice applied to them,free gift eternal life....to inherit the kingdom prepared for them


secound resurrection..for those whose throat is an open grave....a graven image....those twice dead....having been judged already and cast down from heaven

BOUND WITH EVERLASTING CHAINS FOR JUDGEMENT ON THE GREAT DAY(Jude)   they are without fruit and uprooted...twice dead

[WhiteWings]

Found the article:
 
 
  We ought not to conceive of Tartarus in the way the Greeks defined it, but we must think of it in terms of the place where God confined "the angels that sinned" in Genesis 6:2. This word Tartarus appears only once in the New Testament, and it appears only in its verb form. 2 Peter 2:4 says,
 

⁴ For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Tartarus] and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; ⁵ and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness. . . . In Peter's first letter he made reference to these "angels" without actually using the word Tartarus. He wrote in 1 Peter 3:18-20,
 

¹⁸ For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; ¹⁹ in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, ²⁰ who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

We have to make one correction in the NASB translation above. The phrase "went and" in verse 19 is NOT in the original Greek text. It does NOT say that He WENT AND preached, as if to conjure up the image of a circuit-riding preacher. The text actually reads that Jesus was "made alive in the spirit; in which [resurrected body] also He made proclamation to the spirits now in prison."
In other words He was raised from the dead as a life-giving spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and given a resurrected body, in which He made His proclamation to the spirits in prison—that is, in Tartarus. His very resurrection (or embodiment) was the proclamation. His resurrection into a physical body made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) was the proclamation of His enthronement over all, including the angels that sinned (or "spirits in prison").
It was proclaimed that Jesus is King over all the earth, that all creation was subject to Him, and that He had been given a Name above every name. A few verses later, Peter confirms this in 1 Peter 3:22,
 

²² who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. His resurrection subjected all things to Him, including the angels that sinned. In essence, that is when the proclamation went forth into all the earth and to Tartarus itself that He was Lord of all, that He had been given a name above every name in heaven, in earth, and under the earth (Phil. 2:10).
 
.........
 
So first, it is clear from 2 Peter 2:4 that the angels that sinned were put into a prison of darkness to await their judgment. We also read in 1 Peter 3:18-20 that Jesus' resurrection proclaimed to "the spirits now in prison" that He was King of the earth. The angels were the first to attempt to usurp the throne by unlawful means. They took the daughters of Adam as wives in order to lay claim to authority over the earth. But God destroyed the earth by a flood and imprisoned them in chains of darkness.
So it is obvious in studying this more carefully that Peter was not talking about Jesus preaching to men in Hades, but about a proclamation to the spirits or angels enchained in Tartarus.
It has long been taught—based upon these verses—that Jesus went to Hades and preached a sermon to the dead. Hades, they say, is divided into two compartments: Hell for the unbelievers, and Paradise for the believers. Then after three days of preaching, Jesus rose from the dead, emptying Paradise of believers, and taking them to heaven with Him at His ascension.
 
Click her for the full article: http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/coldfusion/Chapter.cfm?CID=81

 

[sheila]

Hey WW

   To the one we(Christ's] are the odour of death to the other,the fragrance of life(2Cor 2;16}    for there shall be two men asleep in abed

  One shall be taken,andthe 'other' left behind


    And the 'earth OPENED it's mouth[grave] and helped the woman......the account of Korah...if these men die an ordinary death Numbers 16;29  if

  these men die a natural death and expierence only what usually happens to men, then the Lord has not sent me, but...if

    THE LORD BRINGS ABOUT SOMETHING TOTALLY NEW   AND THE EARTH OPENS IT'S MOUTH AND SWALLOWS THEM,WITH EVERYTHING

  THAT BELONGS TO THEM,AND THEY GO DOWN ALIVE INTO THE GRAVE,THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT THESE MEN HAVE TREATED

THE LORD WITH CONTEMPT



 

[sheila]

calling to mind Jesus words regarding white-washed graves that appear righteous to men but are full of dead mens bones  Matt 23;27    here He is speaking to those spirits

thrown out of heaven and  bound in the earth[vessel] of the Pharissees    awaiting the coming judgement. Odour of death to the one,odour of life to the men

possessed by them

 You will not see me again,until you say'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD

   

[sheila]

Found this!

   Proverbs 26

    v 23 like a coating of glaze over earthenware are fervent lips with an evil heart

   a malicious man disguises himself with his lips,but in his heart he harbours deceit,though his speech is charming do not beive him,

  for seven abominations fill his heart.  His malice may be concealed by deception,but his wickedness will be exposed in all the assembly

   If a man digs a pit..he will fall into it,if a man rolls a stone,it will roll back on him

  a lying tongue hates those it hurts

   Matthew 23  seven woes for the seven abominations?

[eaglesway]

He descended to the lowest low and set His feet there ....(wherever you set your feet I will give it to you) so that he could ascend to the highest high (The Lord said unto my Lord- sit at my right hand unilt i make all your enemies a footstool for your feet) bearing the name above every name

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of the messenger who brings good news(euaggelos), the good news of peace and salvation (sozo-deliverance) Is 52:7

 Lk 2:10-14 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(euaggelos) of great joy, which shall be to all people.
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will(eudokia) toward men.

Eph 1:9-11 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure(eudokia) which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph4:6-13 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:





1 Pet 3:17-20 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; (This verse is further amplified in 2 Pet 2:4-10)

2 Pet 2:4-10) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 This is definitely not just the angels of Jude, who speaks comprehensively of men and angels who did not abide in their proper estate/abode/sphere/function etc. They denied the order of God's anointing, which is functional by grace through the spirit and sought their own justification and purpose- creating chaos- like we do today ;o)



1 Pet 4:5,6 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For the gospel(euagglos) has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to God.

When men and angels leave their proper estate(exceed their calling/anointing/gift/authority) as did Korah and Balaam and the sons of God who went into the daughters of women, etc- it creates CHAOS. God has always dealt with this by limited corrective action. His goal is always to preserve the creation, rescuing it from chaos :o). He confused the tongues of all men at the Tower of Babel. He dealt wth Korah and his co-conspiritors and preserved the nation, how? By swallowing them alive into Sheol, not "eternal hell".

But the one who "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will" is causing "all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose" which purpose is His "good will(eudokia) towards men"- the "gathering together into one of all things in Christ" in whom we also have an inheritance "having been predestined according to His purpose", which is that we should "deliver the whole creation from futility(chaos) into the glorious liberty of the sons of God(union, harmony, freedom, love, life cascading as waterfalls of glory throughout infinity)