Author Topic: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation  (Read 2695 times)

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Yeshua-Song

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Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« on: December 04, 2009, 11:28:58 PM »

Dear Pastor ___,
 
i read the attached article about Barclay. thanks for sending it along. it only confirms my respect for him. and he cites eminent church fathers in support of his universalism. or do you consider Orgien and Gregory of Nyssa also to be "heretics"!
 
as for universalism, do you disagree also with CS Lewis who writes: although Jesus is the only way to Heaven, this does not necessarily imply that Jesus cannot save those who don't acknowledge Him through no fault of their own!
 
I found another interesting C.S. Lewis quote in a book by Richard Purtill, C. S. Lewis' Case for the Christian Faith, p. 83 [cited from Letters of C.S. Lewis, p.247]

Quote
I think that every prayer that is made even to a false God or to the very imperfectly conceived true God is accepted by the true God, and that Christ saves many who do not think they know Him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers whom they follow. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:3 and following) those who are saved do not seem to know they have served Christ. But of course our anxiety about unbelievers is most perfectly employed when it leads not to speculation but to earnest prayer for them and the attempt to be in our own lives such good advertisements for Christianity as will make it attractive.

the old testament saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 never acknowledged Jesus. some even behaved in ways that might be considered wicked. yet somehow they made it to Heaven.
 
The Catholic Catechism teaches explicitly that all men may access Heaven if their ignorance of Christ arose from no fault of their own:
 
Universal Salvation seems very close to the official doctrine as stated in the Catholic Catechism (see particularly numbers 839-848):
 
Excerpts from Above Two Links:
 
Quote
1. While some Christian denominations take a narrow and limited view of the salvation of non-members, the Catholic Church recognizes the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, and even non-Christians. The Catholic Church recognizes that God works in many ways through many diverse channels, including in ways that might surprise us. For example, God used the pagan, Persian king Cyrus to free the Jews from captivity, allowing them to return back to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple. In Isaiah 54, the prophet records the Lord's message about Cyrus:

2. "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


In the end, this approach ends up knocking out just about everyone, including fellow Christians (the RCC for venerating saints, the Orthodox for considering Constantine a Saint and coequal to the Apostles, etc etc ad nauseum).

I like GK Chesterton's response to a request of an English newspaper to write a series of articles on "What is Wrong with the Universe". Chesterton wrote back one word: "Me".

natcat86

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 11:34:26 PM »
Thanks for that!

I'm pretty sure in The Great Divorce he refers to Paul as a universalist.

Nat

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 11:41:30 PM »
or do you consider Orgien and Gregory of Nyssa also to be "heretics"!
Hi YS,

You might like this article too: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7186.0
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Yeshua-Song

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 11:47:47 PM »
cant access this link.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 11:51:04 PM »
Then that section will be visible when you have more than ??? posts.

http://www.christianspiritualism.org/articles/destroyingheresies.htm

Quote
Hippolytus (A.D. 220), in "Philosophumena" or "Refutation of Heresy" enumerates and comments on thirty-two heresies, but Universal Salvation is not named among them.
Quote
Epiphanius, bishop of Constantia in Cyprus (A.D. 367) was "a narrow-minded, credulous, violent-tempered, but sincere man". He bitterly opposed Origen on many points but never once does he so much as hint that his views of Universal Salvation were objectionable to himself, or to the Church. In Epiphanius' book against heresies, "The Panarion," this "hammer of heretics" names eighty heresies but Universal Salvation is not among them.
Quote
"The state of opinion on the subject of Universal Salvation is shown by the fact that though Ignatius, IrenŠnus, Hippolytus and others wrote against the prevalent heresies of their times, Universalism is never named among them. Some of the alleged errors of Origen were condemned, but his doctrine of Universal Salvation, never. Methodius, who wrote A.D. 300; Pamphilus and Eusebius, A.D. 310; Eustathius, A.D. 380; Epiphanius, A.D. 376 and 394; Theophilus, A.D. 400-404, and Jerome, A.D. 400; all give lists of Origen's errors, but none name his Universalism among them.
Quote
Eusebius, "the father of ecclesiastical history", wrote the biography of Pamphilus in three books. The "Apology" contained "very many testimonies of fathers earlier than Origen in favour of restitution"
Quote
J.W. Hanson D.D. explains: "The Council of Constantinople, A.D. 381, which perfected the Nicene Creed, was participated in by the two Gregorys; Gregory Nazianzen presided and Gregory Nyssen added the clauses to the Nicene creed. They were both Universalists. Would any council, in ancient or modern times, composed of believers in endless punishment, select an avowed Universalist to preside over its deliberations, and guide its 'doctrinal transactions?' And can anyone consistently think that Gregory's Universalism was unacceptable to the great council over which he presided?"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Yeshua-Song

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 12:08:22 AM »
thanks. great information!

Offline Tony N

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 03:26:59 AM »

Dear Pastor ___,
 
i read the attached article about Barclay. thanks for sending it along. it only confirms my respect for him. and he cites eminent church fathers in support of his universalism. or do you consider Orgien and Gregory of Nyssa also to be "heretics"!
 
as for universalism, do you disagree also with CS Lewis who writes: although Jesus is the only way to Heaven, this does not necessarily imply that Jesus cannot save those who don't acknowledge Him through no fault of their own!
 
I found another interesting C.S. Lewis quote in a book by Richard Purtill, C. S. Lewis' Case for the Christian Faith, p. 83 [cited from Letters of C.S. Lewis, p.247]

Quote
I think that every prayer that is made even to a false God or to the very imperfectly conceived true God is accepted by the true God, and that Christ saves many who do not think they know Him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers whom they follow. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:3 and following) those who are saved do not seem to know they have served Christ. But of course our anxiety about unbelievers is most perfectly employed when it leads not to speculation but to earnest prayer for them and the attempt to be in our own lives such good advertisements for Christianity as will make it attractive.

the old testament saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 never acknowledged Jesus. some even behaved in ways that might be considered wicked. yet somehow they made it to Heaven.

Tony's reply:
Really? They made it to heaven? Where is the scripture for that? In John's account he stated that Joh 3:13 "And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

So any scripture which might make one think someone might have gone to heaven must be re-thought in the light of John 3:13.
 
Quote
The Catholic Catechism teaches explicitly that all men may access Heaven if their ignorance of Christ arose from no fault of their own:
 
Universal Salvation seems very close to the official doctrine as stated in the Catholic Catechism (see particularly numbers 839-848):

Tony's reply:
The Catholic Catechism on this is incorrect. The only thing which fits us for God being All in the human race, the only thing which makes the whole human race justified and made righteous (Romans 5:18,19) and saved (1 Tim.2:4-6) and reconciled (Col.1:20) is not due to ignorance but due solely to what Christ has done in His death, burial and resurrection for all mankind.
 
Excerpts from Above Two Links:
 
Quote
1. While some Christian denominations take a narrow and limited view of the salvation of non-members, the Catholic Church recognizes the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, and even non-Christians. The Catholic Church recognizes that God works in many ways through many diverse channels, including in ways that might surprise us. For example, God used the pagan, Persian king Cyrus to free the Jews from captivity, allowing them to return back to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple. In Isaiah 54, the prophet records the Lord's message about Cyrus:

2. "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


Quote
In the end, this approach ends up knocking out just about everyone, including fellow Christians (the RCC for venerating saints, the Orthodox for considering Constantine a Saint and coequal to the Apostles, etc etc ad nauseum).

I like GK Chesterton's response to a request of an English newspaper to write a series of articles on "What is Wrong with the Universe". Chesterton wrote back one word: "Me".


Just remember, it's not about ignorance or other ways of getting to God. The one and only way is through what Christ accomplished for all mankind. All mankind are neutral recipients of what He did just as we are of what Adam did.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: Interesting Comment from CS Lewis on Universal Salvation
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 01:27:21 PM »
I personally think ya all should rethink your concept of "going to Heaven"

Because the Kingdom of Heaven IS now in Creation on earth, in Humankind and All things...

Because of after the d-b-and rezz of Jesus, he became the only Anointed of the father.  And NOW All things are IN JC. bought and paid for. done deal.

Lee