Input please..

[whyiloveitaly]

I'd love to hear anybody's take on this nugget:

Romans 6:7---For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Blessings!
Brian

[97531]

Hi Brian

Simple, when we die the capacity to sin dies, hence we are free, in the literal sense.

Rom 6:6  knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he who died has been justified from sin.
Rom 6:8  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9  knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10  For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In context, as used as a baptism text, the old man is crucified, buried and stands up in newness with Christ.  Yet we know, even after baptism, baptism in the Spirit or re-birth, we can still sin so it has to mean more. The way I am seeing it now is that sin exists in spite all these things, when the focus is off sin and on the Father.  Alive to God though Jesus Christ our Lord, embracing His teachings and example, we have access to the Father in spite of our sins.

Sin has no dominion over us unless we give it life, hence we determine how big a part sin plays in our life.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

The Grace of God far outweighs any sin we may commit.  Love covers a multitude of sin, nothing we do separates us from the Love of God.

Blessings

[whyiloveitaly]

SeekerSA:
I'm thinking it goes deeper than that, but I can't find the words..

[hopeful]

Sin has no dominion over us unless we give it life, hence we determine how big a part sin plays in our life.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

Amen, Bernie.

Brian, I think all spiritual truth goes deeper as it becomes reality to us.  Truth is truth but when it becomes reality to us, then it is really TRUE!

I spent many of my "Christian' years fighting temptation and feeling condemned for my frequent failings.  But one day I had a revelation of being dead to sin.  Whenever I would feel "tempted", I would feel faith rise up in me and I would say, "Oh, I'm dead to THAT."  And the sting would go right out of that temptation! 

I called its bluff!  God had done it already but it had to become a reality to ME!

[whyiloveitaly]

Hopeful:
That's kind of where I was going with this verse.
Then another verse came to mind which I needed to re-read because of what great things it seems to imply:

Rom. 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


I don't know where to start with this verse, so here goes anyway:

We talk about judgment. Sin and it's consequences (judgment) and that if eternal hell were true, Jesus would have to have stayed in hell for eternity to pay that price.
So what DID He pay??? Perhaps the wage of sin, which was death.

So death has been paid for.

Now without going into a debate about whether we really die or not, I was thinking about the TOTALITY of what has been done at Calvary.

Adam brought a sin realm. But Paul says that Jesus Christ brought a LIFE REALM which exceeds what Adam brought.

And as we all paid for what Adam brought, we must now all "reap the harvest" of what Christ brought.

Think of it! We didn't ask for God to save us! As He condemned all without our asking, He has saved all without our asking!
Because just as we inherited the first, we inheirit the second. We didn't ask for the first, and we didn't ask for the second!

Do you see the GLORY of this?

Bri

[hopeful]

Do you see the GLORY of this?

All His plans are glorious!   

[adam]

That really is a nugget there Brian!

Maybe as well as the deeper meanings you guys have been talking about, Paul was also saying death marks the time when Christians are totally cleansed of sin by His blood?

Hopefull, I think I know what you mean to about some sins dying in this life.  I still have a few failings but there are some vices I used to struggle with that just don't tempt me at all now.

God bless.

[whyiloveitaly]

Adam:
Right! It's almost as if the more we can die, the more at peace we are..

Not exactly what you'd hear on prime time tv..

Brian

[Cardinal]

  It's not almost, it's EXACTLY that way......HIS peace is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit. And the only time the flesh doesn't war with it, is when it's DEAD. Anything else is a false peace.....sorta like the one that He said would come before He "returns".  He returns and returns and returns, ie. keeps appearing until every enemy (in us) is beneath His feet. The Word is SPIRIT written to our spirit. Blessings to all......

[whyiloveitaly]

Cardinal: (is that really your name?)

In fact, another verse which came to mind last night was:

1 Pet. 4:1-- Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin

And I thought, does suffering make us holy? Sounds similar to some eastern religions! So I checked it out in another version, since it could've been read as, (Christ) hath suffered in the flesh and (He) has ceased from sin.

But no! It would really seem to say that suffering in the flesh frees us from sin! The Amplifies version reads:

SO, SINCE Christ suffered in the flesh for us (or, for you), arm yourselves with the same thought and purpose [patiently to suffer rather than fail to please God]. For whoever has suffered in the flesh [having the mind of Christ] is done with [intentional] sin [has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God].

Wow! How beautiful this is!!! Is suffering the path we must take?  It would seem so!

The question is, what kind of suffering?

The Arnion nature makes us humble and meek; suffering will come in all forms, not just in people making fun of us because we believe!

Bri

[giftsimple]

I'd love to hear anybody's take on this nugget:

Romans 6:7---For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Blessings!
Brian

This the way Paul seen it and wrote.

John the one that walked with Jesus and LOVED him the most say's.

1 John 3


3:1 (See what sort of love the Father has given to us: that we should be called God's children – and indeed we are!
For this reason the world does not know us: because it did not know him.
3:2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.
3:3 And everyone who has this hope focused on him purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure).
3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness.
3:5 And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
3:6 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.
3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous.
3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God's seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness – the one who does not love his fellow Christian – is not of God.

[Kratos]

Cardinal: (is that really your name?)

In fact, another verse which came to mind last night was:

1 Pet. 4:1-- Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin

And I thought, does suffering make us holy? Sounds similar to some eastern religions! So I checked it out in another version, since it could've been read as, (Christ) hath suffered in the flesh and (He) has ceased from sin.

But no! It would really seem to say that suffering in the flesh frees us from sin! The Amplifies version reads:

SO, SINCE Christ suffered in the flesh for us (or, for you), arm yourselves with the same thought and purpose [patiently to suffer rather than fail to please God]. For whoever has suffered in the flesh [having the mind of Christ] is done with [intentional] sin [has stopped pleasing himself and the world, and pleases God].

Wow! How beautiful this is!!! Is suffering the path we must take?  It would seem so!

The question is, what kind of suffering?

The Arnion nature makes us humble and meek; suffering will come in all forms, not just in people making fun of us because we believe!

Bri

Bri,

You will definately hear varying takes on what partaking of the suffering of Christ entails, but I will give you my take. I believe that the cup of suffereing that we must drink is the suffering and death of our carnal soul. I do not believe that we suffer as He did in the flesh in the sense of God making us sick or injuring us in an accident so we can be free from sin. Of course, what the enemy means for harm, God will turn to good for us. Notice the below verse from Hebrews 5:

Heb 5:6  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

To me, this speaks of the suffering of dying to our own will in order to drink the cup of His will. Gethsemane is the primary focus of this suffering as opposed to the cross. By the time that Jesus finished His three hours in Gethsemane, the battle was already won. The cross paid the price for the salvation of our spirits and Jesus alone bore this suffering for us. But we all participate in the saving of the soul through our own Gethsemane experiences as we learn obedience by the things that we suffer. The cross took away the consequences of our sin as they were laid upon Jesus, but Gethsemane takes away the power of sin as we die to ourselves and live unto God.

I do not believe that God is schizophrenic so I do not think that He makes us sick so He can later heal us. I resist suffering in the flesh as from the enemy and not from God because Jesus already bore our sickness and our diseases so that we do not have to. On the other hand, I do count it all joy when I come into the tryong of my faith knowing that it has great recompense for the saving of my soul.

John

[whyiloveitaly]

Hi all:

Thanks for the quotes! I do believe that the Father is whom we must seek in order to stay "on track." Being "fathered by God" is a nice expression!

Part of me, too, wants to believe that Jesus has nailed our sicknesses to His cross. I think it would be a nobler calling to be martyred than to die of a "normal" illness.

Still, I look at Job, and so much of the suffering around me. I cannot shake the idea that God could have made things easier for man. But He didn't.

So is our faith to be tested? Sure. God sent His Son to be tempted by the devil in the wilderness!

And that testing comes about how? By trials. Can we name a few?

Today, I am more of the idea that the soul dies to self. It has had its way our lives, but it is the spirit that must command the soul, not vice versa. Listening to God brings our spirit in tune with His, and the soul obeys (or should at least!)

How about washing the dishes joyfully because no one else wants to?
How about gladly walking the extra mile in the rain for someone who needs a hand?
How about spending time with someone who is lonely--even if they don't want to talk about religion?   

Our flesh tends to say no. Our Father tends to say yes. How well do we hear the difference?

Know what I mean?

Bri

[martincisneros]

I'd love to hear anybody's take on this nugget:

Romans 6:7---For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Blessings!
Brian

Though I haven't read "A Treatise On The Atonement" which is Hosea Ballou's seminal work on Ultra UR, from all of the biographical information that I've read so far about him, he absolutely LOVED that verse in Romans in the context of his dogmatic no-afterlife punishment whatsoever brand of Universalism   The book seems to get into some of the things I've heard Bernie and a lot of others get into around here.  It's supposedly the first "system of theology" or theological treatise/dissertation that's emphatically based upon the love of God rather than either justice or ransom issues.  I think that he holds to the minority point of view of the crucifixion having been about just leaving us an example rather than any of the justice or ransom issues that St. Paul gets into.  I think that for the first time in my life, I'm actually ready to read that book.  Ballou was supposedly very funny in his preaching, but I'm not sure how much of any quips would be equally as funny nearly 200 years later.  I don't know of anyone in particular who makes the book available, but when I've done research on ordering it, I've found many 20th century reprintings of it.  The UUA seems to really love that book.


I goofed and said minor, originally, instead of minority

[whyiloveitaly]

Thanks Martin! Let me know if you find any interesting quotes in it!

Bri