I tried.

[nightflight]

No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

[studier]

No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

I understand. Though there is no counter argument, just what you accept as one. I went through the same thing. I got angry at God and demanded clarity because He is not a God of confusion. He taught me, the only way you can understand, is to view all things by Love. Perfect love casts out all fear, and if you still fear, then you know not perfect love. There is only one way to read Scripture: understand God and everything in the Universe and that is through the eyes of Love. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Next, if you want to believe that there is no punishment for those who continue in sin, despite God's Love, you will not find it. The sinners of Zion fear because they know they have done wrong and punishment does await them. I am one of the few who believe there is an afterlife punishment for those who do not abide in faith. The results of the punishment are perpetual in nature, the process of the punishment is a fire, and while a person goes through it it will appear to them as torture but it isn't literal fire, it isn't literal torture and it for sure is not perpetual in nature.

So if you want to believe that God does not punish those who have continue to sin and cannot find it, that is because it is not found in Scripture or the Truth. If you want to believe that God punishes them perpetually, it is equally not found in Scripture or the Truth. I hope you did not make the mistake that Universalism means no punishment.

[nightflight]

Interesting; maybe that's what's tripping me up, being conditioned to see any punishment as necessarily everlasting.

No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

I understand. Though there is no counter argument, just what you accept as one. I went through the same thing. I got angry at God and demanded clarity because He is not a God of confusion. He taught me, the only way you can understand, is to view all things by Love. Perfect love casts out all fear, and if you still fear, then you know not perfect love. There is only one way to read Scripture: understand God and everything in the Universe and that is through the eyes of Love. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Next, if you want to believe that there is no punishment for those who continue in sin, despite God's Love, you will not find it. The sinners of Zion fear because they know they have done wrong and punishment does await them. I am one of the few who believe there is an afterlife punishment for those who do not abide in faith. The results of the punishment are perpetual in nature, the process of the punishment is a fire, and while a person goes through it it will appear to them as torture but it isn't literal fire, it isn't literal torture and it for sure is not perpetual in nature.

So if you want to believe that God does not punish those who have continue to sin and cannot find it, that is because it is not found in Scripture or the Truth. If you want to believe that God punishes them perpetually, it is equally not found in Scripture or the Truth. I hope you did not make the mistake that Universalism means no punishment.

[studier]

Interesting; maybe that's what's tripping me up, being conditioned to see any punishment as necessarily everlasting.

As I was writing the response, that is what the Holy Spirit pointed out is the problem.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's awesome to see someone work through a problem in this manner,  glimpses of hope and truth that can be built upon.

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi nightflight,

I can really relate to you. Been there a lot. The advice to always love is a good thing.

I think this terror usually hits the wrong people. This is something I would recommend to you to think through. Read the old testament, and whom God threatens with punishment there. It's never the small sinner, it's always against peoples and societies which really went far into straight froward wickedness. I find that many modern churches, in America anyway, in error target simple people when they stand in the pulpit to condemn someone. For example, in the bible we clearly see the condemnation of love for money as evil. But still America idolizes money makers like Bill Gates, whoever, there are many out there.

Compare Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to Solomon's proverbs. I think many times christians are stuck in the proverbs. Likewise, many times believers are stuck in the old covenant when we're in fact under a new and much better covenant of love and forgiveness.

In my case, the fears come up and then they vanish again. I have the gift of tongues, and I really cling much to the God I experience there. He is utterly kind, warmhearted, attentive and full of solace and soothing. I feel that we can't always find this God in the bible, not with the many adversaries to such Revelation. Make no mistake, there is also an inward adversary. Our hearts are not reliable, they often produce images of what is or what was or what would be, without them ever being truthful. So sometimes we imagine God to be evil - without being prompted by God to do so. For some reason our minds cannot always fend off evil images. There is a good logic of faith, but there is also the logic of fear. Sometimes, when we fear something, that which we fear seems so close and true and serious. That way, the enemy pushes us into believing something evil about God, while, all the time, God is sincerely loving you, albeit in a majestic and holy way which I don't always understand. But this majestic and holy loving isn't all there is about God. In God there are also other kinds of love. That's where the bible gets helpful again. I don't know if I could stand through trials like Job's ... but I'm finding myself pretty close to Gideon for example, just look how patiently and loving he was treated. Or Ruth. Or Abraham.

My advice for you, to work against your fears, means to work on love and faith. Remember Abraham ... at some point he walked through a burning furnace, and came out unscathed, I think because He had faith. For some reason, sometimes God sends us through such furnaces. But that will not mean your whole life. God has hard things for us to experience, and easy and simple things. But sometimes we falter under pressure and our imagination gets loose and in turn convinces us that anything is terrible.

Another important advice, I think, is finding good fellowship. I've had good experiences with the Salvation Army, for example. There is something soothing about fellowshipping with alcoholics, homeless, former hippies, "loosers" etc, instead of with super stars who did anything right and consider themselves as holy as Moses. Without recognizing the veil before their eyes. I eventually became a lutheran christian, but I still have good memories from my time with the Army. Just search, search, search ... somewhere you will find a sincerely loving congregation where people love you.

I agree, UR isn't going to quit all your fears. It's just a possibility, for all we know. But, tell you what, faith in Jesus still saves. Couple that with living in love, not just love for others, also for you. But it should not be love that exists in a vacuum of yourself, not just you alone loving yourself, that gets you nowhere.

As for God, set your mind on respecting Him. Simply oftentimes take some hours for walking in the woods or at the ocean or just lying in the park watching the sky. God gives us knowledge of His greatness there, which will induce you to feel awe and respect. That's one important ingredient for a good life of faith with God. Then, set your mind on things you are aware of lacking, ie patience, longsuffering, humility, meekness etc, and pursue these things according to your strength. Don't always look at some big picture of salvation/damnation. That has always scared anyone, not just you, no matter whether you believe in UR or ET. There is something intrinsically scary, and even terrible for us small humans, about pondering an afterlife that is not in our control at all. But, we shall life here on Earth, and live a good and honest life here. And it should be a life with God, under His wings. Return to the cross often, there's peace there and much love from God for man.

At last, remember that God loves the brokenhearted and of contrite spirit. I think they are dearer to Him than those hotheads who proclaim fear and judgment without themselves really knowing in the heart what they speak about.

UR is a good thing to ponder, scripture hints at it anyway, but ultimately a doctrine will not save you. What you need is the experience of God being merciful to you, after that things will get clearer, clear enough anyway to be able to rely on God and not to fall prey to despair.

If you want, email me for more conversation. I'm fairly familiar with these kinds of fear, doubt, despair and suffering. (daniel-neubacher@t-online.de)

Blessings!

[WhiteWings]

Nightflight,

For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.

I have the same problem. Especially when  look at things verse by verse. At close-up so to speak.
But take a few steps back. What is it what you see then?
An outline of God slapping around everyone He's angry with. And then lateron He gives another chance.... And that's the main message.

Gary did a great job with all his Aion documents on his site.
IMO he should add more documents about what fire and brimstone really are.

http://bible-truths.com/
Joyful1 pointed me to that that site and I'll point you to it too....
Read the "Lake of Fire series" 716 pages that might ease your mind a little.
When your knowledge grows you defence against horror stories grows too.
I would be lying if I said all is fear-free now. But I do notice small positive changes.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Nightflight...

Unfortunately, as I observe by your OP, you are not at PEACE...  ...nor has PERFECT LOVE yet, embraced your heart... giving that PEACE to you.

I post this answer in hopes PEACE can become yours...

Everyone however, is welcome to disagree, and hold onto FEAR as a continuing and unsettling state, which robs its "holders" of both PEACE and LOVE...

This is not an endeavor to convince you or anyone else, but as I see it, ...the Scripture plainly says what it says...

No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

1st... "misunderstanding" is embraced instead of REJECTED... When Scripture teaches us that GOD is LOVE (1 John 14:8), and that LOVE does not contain FEAR, and we hold on to it, ...then GOD is not withholding understanding, nor should He be blamed for such... We are found willingly ignoring the statement of SCRIPTURE, ...that LOVE does not propose FEAR...

GOD is not to blame for OUR stubborness which willingly holds on to the false things  which RELGION has taught us,  ...that being that FEAR (terror/dread) concerning YHVH GOD, ...is TRUTH... 

To teach and/or maintain FEAR in any capacity, is CONTRARY to LOVE in its PERFECT state... and is CONTRARY to this Scripture:

1 John 4:14

There IS, ...NO FEAR... IN LOVE.  But PERFECT LOVE, casteth OUT FEAR because FEAR hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH is NOT MADE perfect in LOVE...

This verse plainly SAYS what it SAYS...

(1)  Anyone which teaches FEAR in any capacity... (that there is TORMENT, VENGENCE and RECOMPENSE to FEAR beyond this life)... is teaching contrary to PERFECT LOVE... or,

(2)  Anyone who maintains FEAR of coming VENGENCE... is likewise, not (yet) made PERFECT in LOVE... nor is at PEACE...

When GOD LOVE is present, ...FEAR is NOT... period! 

Believe what you will... 

I wish you well! 

peacE...
...willieH 

[laren]

 


 Eph 3:14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


 Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


 Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


 Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


 Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


 Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


 Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,


 Eph 3:21  Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother L...

 Eph 3:14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


 Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


 Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


 Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


 Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


 Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


 Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,


 Eph 3:21  Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

This is a prayer that my wife and I pray daily for ALL MEN, thanks for posting it brother Laren!

peACe...
...willieH 

[nightflight]

Thanks all!

[True Believer]

nightflight,

willieH and others make a good point about the reality of God's Love, the mutual exclusiveness of Love and Fear, and the need to live in a state of Love.  As far as the heart is concerned, this message is the perfect medicine.  However, we can also be ensnared by the mind when we try to read the Bible using the axioms of mundane thought and handed-down tradition.  In regard to the concern you expressed:

If God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.

Methinks willieH is treading on very thin ice when he asserts that God has not let himself be misunderstood.  What he quotes from the gospel of John is very true, but the reality is that a massive misunderstanding of God's plan has been handed down via the historic church, and that the reformation barely scratched the surface of what had been misunderstood.  As to why this occurred, I would recommend the book of Job.  The doctrine of ET is certainly a trial in mundane life, but like fires, floods, wars, riots, disease, and other trials, I see it as a concomitant of God's plan unfolding in the context of a self-consistent universe, and further complicated by humans having true albeit limited free-will.

In addition, numerous passages speak of or imply a major "end-time" revelation, something that very much implies a prior loss and/or withholding of information.  This "end-time" revelation will correct historic misunderstanding via both the hearted-centered message of love and UR and the hard scientific logic of trans-temporal causation.  This newly revealed aspect of logic is supremely relevant to the other main concern you expressed:

For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.

There is one argument for universalism for which there is no counter argument, and that is the old idea of Origen, Philip K Dick, SOtW, and myself that salvation takes place on parallel timelines, and that if we don't salvation in one version of history, we will inevitably find it in another.  For certain, many arguments can and will be raised against parallel timelines, but as the "end-time" revelation unfolds, they will all fail because the Holy Spirit and the Bible both testify to its truth.  And when the dust settles universal salvation will stand as an obvious reality with no counter argument.

My prescription then is to take the message of Love that willieH offers as medicine for your heart, and take the message of parallel timelines the SOtW, myself, and others will be offering as medicine for your mind.  If you do that you will be wearing the whole armor of God and the messages of torment will not be able to get through.

P.S. Check out the thread trans-temporal redemption.  The posts are a bit long and heavy but it will be worth it.  An upcoming post in that thread will address the scriptural challenge of willieH.

[studier]

To be clear, I hold that "trans-temporal redemption" has aspects which make it a valid possibility concerning aionios kolasis. I hold my reservations because of the complex nature of quantum reality.

[True Believer]

To be clear, I hold that "trans-temporal redemption" has aspects which make it a valid possibility concerning aionios kolasis. I hold my reservations because of the complex nature of quantum reality.

I first learned about time-symmetric causation when studying quantum reality and only later saw the degree to which it is supported by the Bible.  So I'm really interested in hearing the nature of your reservations to see if there is some way we can deepen or clarify the multilayered reality that we both see in our own way.  Also, when you say "complex" do you mean complicated or complex numbered?  Maybe you can comment about this in the other thread.

[willieH]

I guess we are destined to have a convo in the 3rd person...

Methinks willieH is treading on very thin ice when he asserts that God has not let himself be misunderstood.

GOD has VEILED that which is yet to be REVEALED... He has not "let Himself be misunderstood"...  there IS a difference...

To propose that GOD has let Himself be misunderstood, is purposeful deception... as He acted PURPOSELY to make Himself MISUNDERSTOOD...

It is a far better SPIRITUAL understanding that until GOD REVEALS... men DECIEVE themselves...  Which is where VARIOUS RELIGIONS are born, along with nonsense such as EVOLUTION... and PARALLEL TIMELINES...

Endeavoring to make MEN's notions, ...that which dictates to the ALMIGHTY, as opposed to the ALMIGHTY being in COMPLETE CONTROL of His Creation dictating HOLINESS to SINFUL MEN.   And further purposes in this effort, to rob Him of the title ALMIGHTY (which by definition means having ALL MIGHT/POWER)... by noting that MAN is the essential "causation", effecting the reality of the TIMELINE in which he is found... please!

MEN delegating to GOD, rather than GOD delgating to MEN... cart before the horse, pushing from the front, ...whatever way you wish to envision futility and pride in its NATURAL HABITAT...

GOD has PURPOSED that REVELATION be withheld... and that is to let MAN, in his PRIDE, show himSELF... that he... IN THAT PRIDE... will conjure up IMAGINARY and FALSE EXPLANATIONS for that which he (as a veiled finite) has NO VALID EXPLANATION... IMAGINATION, ...in action...

Scripture plainly describes this: 

Prov 6:16-19

These Six does YHVH hate, yea, Seven an abomination unto Him: [1] A PROUD look [2] a LYING tongue [3] and hands that SHED innocent blood [4] an HEART that DEVISETH WICKED IMAGINATIONS [5] feet that be swift to MISCHIEF [6] a FALSE witness that SPEAKETH LIES [7] and he that soweth DISCORD among brethren...

#1, 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are definitely related to IMAGINATIONS (fictional unfounded and unproveable theories).. which mislead, misdirect, and cause division... ending up producing #3...

ALL you do TB, is erect a modern day COMPLEX version... of the SIMPLE folly of OLD...

You are welcome to think what you like of me... but my pathway seeks to follow TRUTH... and GOD, ...not FICTION and MEN...

What he quotes from the gospel of John is very true, but the reality is that a massive misunderstanding of God's plan has been handed down via the historic church, and that the reformation barely scratched the surface of what had been misunderstood.  As to why this occurred, I would recommend the book of Job.  The doctrine of ET is certainly a trial in mundane life, but like fires, floods, wars, riots, disease, and other trials, I see it as a concomitant of God's plan unfolding in the context of a self-consistent universe, and further complicated by humans having true albeit limited free-will.

What an OXY MORON... TRUE but LIMITED ...FREE will!   

How can something which is TRUELY "FREE" ...be LIMITED?  To LIMIT means to some degree, CONFINE...  Something CONFINED is NOT... FREE!

"FREE WILL" is not even mentioned in the WORD of TRUTH, so upon what do you base it to be TRUE?   

The Scriptures, FROM the BEGINNING, show that Man's WILL is IN BONDAGE to ITSELF... (as Adam, KNOWING the WILL and command of GOD to NOT EAT, ...became ENSLAVED to his OWN WILL and ATE) and therefore was NOT FREE...

It is TRUTH which CREATES FREEdom...

(John 8:32)

...And ye shall KNOW the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall MAKE YOU... FREE!

Didya catch that?  TRUTH shall MAKE YOU FREE, or CREATE FREEDOM ...IN YOU...

If the WORD has not created you FREE... Then are you YET in BONDAGE... only when your choosing is UNSELFISH, is the will FREE... and even then it is NOT YOU, but CHRIST IN YOU, which chooses UNSELFISHLY...

The entire BIBLE screams of the BONDAGE of MAN, to himSELF... yet you argue that the will of Man is somehow, in some way FREE?  Get a SPIRITUAL grip bud... 

JESUS CHRIST taught to LOVE OTHERS, ...AS... YOURSELF... THIS is the method of FREEDOM... not the SELFISHNESS which is inherent in the WILL we all, by NATURE, ...possess...

In addition, numerous passages speak of or imply a major "end-time" revelation, something that very much implies a prior loss and/or withholding of information.  This "end-time" revelation will correct historic misunderstanding via both the hearted-centered message of love and UR and the hard scientific logic of trans-temporal causation.

 

Patting yourself on the back areya TB?  I notice that you did not quote ANY verses of Scripture to support this assertion, which is that YOU have gained a Scripturally "end time" revelation...  Why did you omit them? 

"Trans-temporal causation"... is just yet another, Man-INVENTED terminology... which has no basis in that which IS WRITTEN... but endeavors to "sound impressive", much as did ADVERSITY in the Garden, ...misleading those who give it EAR...

YOU instruct above to MIX your "HARD scientific" logic, an INTELLECTUAL modern day "revelation" with LOVE, ...and IN THAT suggestion propose that LOVE is somehow incorrect and/or INCOMPLETE without your offering...

Your proposals speak AGAINST the WORD of YHVH as a FIXED entity... and challenges the VALIDITY of DEFINED and DIVINE PURPOSE in the WORK and WORD of GOD...

Meaning that the WORD of GOD, is NOT what it claims to be, ...a FIXED and UNCHANGING HOLY position,  ...rather finds its HOLY position, affected by that which it CREATED, and becomes its pawn, which is moved about the "room" of creation ...by the agendas of  SINFUL men... 

Nor can it be relied upon as "there" when we "need it"... rather, is found rolling around in the FLUXUATION of CHANGE (which MEN find themselves amidst)... and poses that the ROCK of our SALVATION is nothing but a paper mache fallacy, which is batted back and forth at the whims of MEN... 

My prescription then is to take the message of Love that willieH offers as medicine for your heart, and take the message of parallel timelines the SOtW, myself, and others will be offering as medicine for your mind.  If you do that you will be wearing the whole armor of God and the messages of torment will not be able to get through.

This is an attempt to MIX -- LOVE with your brand of INTELLECTUALITY and calling IT the "WHOLE ARMOR", when the WORD does not mention it AT ALL as a part of said ARMOR...   

And further asks us to consider adopting the OPINIONS of MEN (parallel timelines)... in order to put on the WHOLE ARMOR of GOD! 

Here is the ARMOR specified:

Eph 6:14-17

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with TRUTH, and having on the breastplate of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and your feet shod with the GOSPEL of PEACE, above all taking the SHIELD of FAITH, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the firey darts of the wicked... and take the HELMET of SALVATION, and the SWORD of the SPIRIT, which is the WORD of GOD...

Where is PARALLEL TIMELINES mentioned here TB? 

Where does the WORD embrace or INSTRUCT such a proposal as PARALLEL TIMELINES? 

It DOESN'T...

You started your post with a "METHINKS"... might I end mine with one:

Methinks this WOLF  ...is wearing SHEEPS   :omg: clothing... 

dumb musician,    ...signing off...

peACe...
...willieH 

[aspiring son]

No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

I understand. Though there is no counter argument, just what you accept as one. I went through the same thing. I got angry at God and demanded clarity because He is not a God of confusion. He taught me, the only way you can understand, is to view all things by Love. Perfect love casts out all fear, and if you still fear, then you know not perfect love. There is only one way to read Scripture: understand God and everything in the Universe and that is through the eyes of Love. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Next, if you want to believe that there is no punishment for those who continue in sin, despite God's Love, you will not find it. The sinners of Zion fear because they know they have done wrong and punishment does await them. I am one of the few who believe there is an afterlife punishment for those who do not abide in faith. The results of the punishment are perpetual in nature, the process of the punishment is a fire, and while a person goes through it it will appear to them as torture but it isn't literal fire, it isn't literal torture and it for sure is not perpetual in nature.

So if you want to believe that God does not punish those who have continue to sin and cannot find it, that is because it is not found in Scripture or the Truth. If you want to believe that God punishes them perpetually, it is equally not found in Scripture or the Truth. I hope you did not make the mistake that Universalism means no punishment.

I agree, SOTW

[nightflight]

I wish I had never heard of Christianity.

[studier]

I wish I had never heard of Christianity.

I wish you were never taught the lies of those who thought they believed in Christianity.

[nightflight]

I will never be free of this.  Decades of guilt and fear have proven this. 

You people are really nice and are far better than the usual Christians.  But I'm going to leave; I just can't take this anymore.  I have never, never had even a moment where I felt loved or accepted by "God".  Only guilt and fear. 

[WhiteWings]

You sound so sad.
If that fear haunted you for years you can't shake it of by running away.
IMHO the best way to unlearn ET is read all kind of UR books and hang around in a positive enviorment.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm

[Paul Hazelwood]

I will never be free of this.  Decades of guilt and fear have proven this. 

You people are really nice and are far better than the usual Christians.  But I'm going to leave; I just can't take this anymore.  I have never, never had even a moment where I felt loved or accepted by "God".  Only guilt and fear. 

I cannot be sure this will help but I believe one possible cause of this is that while you like how people around here are in comparison to others, you may still be living with the influence of false doctrine.

Bear with me....

I won't say all churches or all Christians believe this way, but by and large the majority of Christian material talks about your power to move God "through" your ability to please him.

This is a lie, yes, they have scriptures, but you also have to realize that they divide the bible in error, they divide the bible between your power and Gods reaction to it. 

Rather, we should divide the bible between Gods absolute control and our perception of how that control appears.

So, quite possibly you do not feel accepted by God because you are not being removed from the circumstances you want removed from because Christian teaching makes you think that if you pleased God enough that will happen.

Your circumstances have absolutly nothing to do with whether God is pleased or not.  He is always pleased concerning us , he is always accepting of you and our circumstances whether through our choices, someone elses or life are to learn by. 

That may not help you,  but it is true.

[Nathan]

I will never be free of this.  Decades of guilt and fear have proven this. 

You people are really nice and are far better than the usual Christians.  But I'm going to leave; I just can't take this anymore.  I have never, never had even a moment where I felt loved or accepted by "God".  Only guilt and fear. 

This is what ticks me off most about the stinking churches that think their truth is "the" truth.  People become disillusioned and walk away from the whole enchilada.  Before I finished that last sentence, . . .let me put it this way . . .Nightflight, you may think you have the ability to leave . ..to walk away . . .but God is not walking away from you . . .the reason you're "here" in this forum is because you were led here.  There are MANY people here that can help get you free from the junk that has convinced you that God is unmerciful and looking to knock you down every time you trip up.  That is man's creation of God.  Don't let it influence you any more .  . don't give up on God . . .give up "to" God.  Just tell him what you wrote here . . .God . .I quit.  I can't do this, I can't continue to live in fear and shame and guilt  . . .I quit.

Did it ever occur to you that you're not actually leaving God . .you're leaving the church's interpretation of God.  And to that I say . . .congratulations!  I am a pastor of a church and I'll tell you what I tell my own congregation . . . if all God is, is a set of rules and standards where men can inflict and enforce, then I want no part of it.  That may have worked yesterday, but this is a new day . . .we are no longer bound by the limitations of the traditions of men . . .just hang around this forum for a while longer and see if God doesn't impregnate you with life-seeds and transform you into a free spirit away from the bondages of law-abiding churches.

Blessings.
Crowbar

[reFORMer]

nightflight---

I think you may have missed the purpose of the Bible.  It can't give you life.  It testifies of Him Whom to know is Life, and that more abundant.  Jesus spoke to religious leaders that opposed Him, saying:  "...so you don't have the Father's message within you, because you don't believe in the person he has sent.  You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them.  These Scriptures testify on my behalf.  Yet, you don't want to come to me to get life." (John 5:38-40)  If you believe in a spirit of fear, mis-identifying it as God,  rather than believing in the true God Who is Love; then, similar to what Jesus said to the Pharisees of old, "you don't believe in the person he has sent."  Imagine if instead of just your inner states you could outwardly conjure up this god you're so afraid of so it would impose itself on others!

Part of why God allows people to believe so many false ideas about Him is He knows what the far future holds.  That, coupled with the fact that He has set Cherubic guards against Adamic man gaining access to the tree of Life.  The carnal mind cannot know God.  It would be an unspeakable disaster if this corrupting, pain-ridden, reality distorting flesh should obtain life.  "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.  The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1 Pet 1:24-25)   It is the mercy of God and good news that flesh is temporary.

Various medications cause bad feelings.  Proton pump inhibitors like Prevacid or Prilosec used to treat over acid stomach or GERDs (Gastro-Esophegal Reflux Disease,) specially in higher doses cause a sense of condemnation and dread.  The muscle relaxant Soma causes depression.  Various illnesses cause chemical unbalances in the brain that affect our state of mind or "affect," one's emotional climate.  If we're under the care of a Doctor, he should be made aware of this condition.  He may be able to treat it until we are healed or to compensate for things he's already prescribed.

My additional prescription is you could be very blessed to come to a better understanding if you repeatedly read 1 Cor 15 for help in discerning between soul and spirit as well as Romans 8 (in the context of 6,7 and 8)  Get this statement:  "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Rom 8:6)  The flesh's evidences to our consciousness are often mistaken for God's attitude toward us.  Memorize and remind yourself that, "God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (1 Tim 1:7)  You need to change your mind!  That's why I suggest you soak it in the Word of God, those two chapters in particular.  The first thing Jesus preaches is "repentance" which means to change your mind.  "Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mt 4:7)  When you read the Bible, do so until you experience the presence of the Spirit of Jesus.  Then let Him draw you on into Himself.

Also, if you can, pray agreeing with another who believes in the power of the Holy Ghost to cast out demons and get rid of the spirit of fear and condemnation.  You can also stand against it alone with Jesus if you must.  Resist the devil and he will flee from you if you're humbly submitted to God. (cf., James 4:6- 7)  Being against the devil is the smaller part however.  Most important to overcome is to thank God, praise Him with singing and the dance, entering into worship.  If you soak in His presence and gaze upon Him you'll know the difference between His glorious love, joy unspeakable and peace that passes understanding and that other puny condemning spirit of fear.  Be being filled with the Holy Spirit!

---your brother, James Rohde

[studier]

Proton pump inhibitors like Prevacid or Prilosec used to treat over acid stomach or GERDs (Gastro-Esophegal Reflux Disease,) specially in higher doses cause a sense of condemnation and dread.  The muscle relaxant Soma causes depression.  Various illnesses cause chemical unbalances in the brain that affect our state of mind or "affect," one's emotional climate.  If we're under the care of a Doctor, he should be made aware of this condition.  He may be able to treat it until we are healed or to compensate for things he's already prescribed.

I took Prevacid for the stress related symptom of acid stomach, and wondered why I felt condemnation and dread. I stopped taking it for that reason, and everyone told me it was in my head. Glad I followed my heart on that one.

[Shadow]

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