I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[pneuma]

Hi all, just stopped by to give some food for thought.

Scripture tells us the God is Love and Love worketh no evil.

Yet Isaiah 45:7 says

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How do we reconcile these seemingly warring scriptures?

Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.

So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.

Here is my translation of Is.45:7

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Does that not line up better with the rest of God's word and nature?

Genesis 1:1-3

…………and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I form the light and cut down the darkness.

God bless

[Paul Hazelwood]

Both are correct.   God is responsible for evils existance, and he does cut it down.

[Beloved Servant]

He plants and plucks!

[WhiteWings]

There is more to the word bara.
It means creating out of nothing.
So that would imply God does not just trigger the evil inside of someone but He also put it there in the first place.

[jabcat]

BServ and WW, I agree.   I think we have to look at more than one set of scriptures.  God is good, everything He does works ultimately for good; even when my human mind doesn't get it, accept it, or wants to explain it away.  What I may see as unfair or not in God's nature, is my veiled eyes looking through the glass darkly - unable to see the bigger picture that God sees.  I do it day after day.  My puny explanations don't measure up.  God's Word says what it says.  It's up to me to walk humbly before Him and "let" Him be Who He says He Is.

I do a lousy job at it, but still, He is Who He is and takes credit (metaphorically speaking) for both the night and day.  God is in control.

[jabcat]

L.Ray Smith says;  Now listen carefully. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that God's creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here's the proof:

Let's look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn't ask anyone's permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

[Paul Hazelwood]

One of the things that trips us up in the thought that God created evil is that it places a question upon Gods character that he do such a thing if it was not absolutely necessary.

When evil is all a part of what we perceive as we go through this process to perfection, it is not about God  "thinking"  "I will create evil and pummel man with it because I so desire"   It is God knowing that creating us would subject us temporarily to it while we are in process, it couldn't be any other way, since God does not change.

The process cannot change because it is God expanding as a family.

[pneuma]

Well guys beleive as you will, I posted it for food for thought not for debate.

Often in reading post aimed at those who beleive in eternal torment I have read such statement like

"The way people view God is the way they will act;therefore, if they view God as a God who will torment people in fire they see nothing wrong with doing the same thing. Than they use Hitler as an example of this principle"

And than seen how those who beleive in the restitution of all things will amen such a post.

Carefull, because your view of God is that God is ultimatly responsible (because He planned it oall out that way) for evil and sin and He can play around with evil and sin because ultimatly He means evil and sin for good.

Therefore to follow your logic that the way people view God is the way they will act you to will play around with evil and sin if you believe it is for good. Either that or you beleive God is one who says do as I say not as I do.

Anyway I'll disappear again, so you can all breath a sigh of releif, and leave you guys to your beleif of a God who wills evil and sin.

[Tim B]

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

That's an awesome quote! And the average Christian response at the end is hilarious! xD (Albeit, the destruction it's caused is sad...)

[rosered]

Hi all, just stopped by to give some food for thought.

Scripture tells us the God is Love and Love worketh no evil.

Yet Isaiah 45:7 says

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How do we reconcile these seemingly warring scriptures?

Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.

So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.

Here is my translation of Is.45:7

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Does that not line up better with the rest of God's word and nature?

Genesis 1:1-3

…………and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I form the light and cut down the darkness.

God bless

  
 thanks Pneuma  
  I can see out of nothing/blank  as darkness too as WW noted    and Jabs post was  compelling
 
  and I do not Judge God in this , for He does take us out of darkness and  makes the LIGHT/ Knowledge of Him to Shine in our hearts  
 
 it is  saving grace to me  
 
 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Carefull, because your view of God is that God is ultimatly responsible (because He planned it oall out that way) for evil and sin and He can play around with evil and sin because ultimatly He means evil and sin for good.

Can evil exist before he cuts it down without God allowing it to exist in the first place?

[Paul Hazelwood]

God creating what we know to exist is why God is responsible, without doing so evil had no chance to exist.

This raises the point I have been trying to make in many threads over this.

Is it possible that God could have created us without any possibility of evil existing?


If so, then how does that not cause Gods loving character to be questionable?

[WhiteWings]

I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.

[rosered]

I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.

  Hey WW and Paul
  you ought to read "the shack"  Its a nice little book on them evil things  that help us to  seek God ,although He was secretly with us all along .
   the Book  is using a scenario  of Mac's great sadness and his  bitterness towards  everything especially God  , its
 
  easy enough for me to understand  and I DO struggle  with  concepts   
 just being honest          believe  me the Lord does see it all and suffers with us , that we do  learn to love and trust Him though any thing this life   that sends our souls to the pits of hell  with .......
 I am enjoying the book  so far and not even done with it yet ...

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.

  Hey WW and Paul
  you ought to read "the shack"  Its a nice little book on them evil things  that help us to  seek God ,although He was secretly with us all along .
   the Book  is using a scenario  of Mac's great sadness and his  bitterness towards  everything especially God  , its
 
  easy enough for me to understand  and I DO struggle  with  concepts   
 just being honest          believe  me the Lord does see it all and suffers with us , that we do  learn to love and trust Him though any thing this life   that sends our souls to the pits of hell  with .......
 I am enjoying the book  so far and not even done with it yet ...

I've read the book a while back and probably did not soak it in to where I remember everything exactly,  if I got the basic implication it is something that I have been expressing in various threads.

Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.

The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things.   We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.

While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did?  Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?

This goes back to our perception....   It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way,  but  that limit is irrelevant,  but to us it is indeed a limit.

That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation,  he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.

[jabcat]

Carefull, because your view of God is that God is ultimatly responsible (because He planned it oall out that way) for evil and sin and He can play around with evil and sin because ultimatly He means evil and sin for good.

Therefore to follow your logic that the way people view God is the way they will act you to will play around with evil and sin if you believe it is for good. Either that or you beleive God is one who says do as I say not as I do.

I see these as assumptions, as what "some people might think and do" - not necessaryily logical conclusions that apply to all based on a view of a sovereign God.  I hope I never accuse God of "playing around" with anything, as IMO, that would be disrespectful.

I'm personally quite bad at it, but I believe I'm better off striving to accept God for Who He says He is, rather than trying to make Him fit what makes sense to me.  IMO, if I spend my time trying to explain how God's ways fit into my beliefs of "my will is totally free and everything depends on what I choose", then I must come up with an endless array of ways to take God off the hook and explain "why He didn't really mean it".

[rosered]

I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.

  Hey WW and Paul
  you ought to read "the shack"  Its a nice little book on them evil things  that help us to  seek God ,although He was secretly with us all along .
   the Book  is using a scenario  of Mac's great sadness and his  bitterness towards  everything especially God  , its
 
  easy enough for me to understand  and I DO struggle  with  concepts   
 just being honest          believe  me the Lord does see it all and suffers with us , that we do  learn to love and trust Him though any thing this life   that sends our souls to the pits of hell  with .......
 I am enjoying the book  so far and not even done with it yet ...

I've read the book a while back and probably did not soak it in to where I remember everything exactly,  if I got the basic implication it is something that I have been expressing in various threads.

Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.

The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things.   We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.

While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did?  Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?

This goes back to our perception....   It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way,  but  that limit is irrelevant,  but to us it is indeed a limit.

That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation,  he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.

 wow ! well Paul , you got a good hold on the concept for sure    
  
  we sure do try to limit God in our hurt dont we  

  and So much of the Word speaks of the endless Love He has and does show towards us , we dont see it at the time , but you are right
 
  even bitterness is a feeling that soon must be  pruned away from within  by God to bear fruit to God ..
 
  Thanks for  the  thoughts on the subject  

[jabcat]

Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.

The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things.   We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.

While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did?  Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?

This goes back to our perception....   It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way,  but  that limit is irrelevant,  but to us it is indeed a limit.

That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation,  he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.

Good points Paul.  IMO, the "our perception" part being a picture of how we do see through a glass darkly, and where there really is a point of placing our trust in Him.  Even (especially) for our very lives.  Because He's God and we're not, He knows what's best, and He has made MANY promises as to bringing all things for our good, and the total, complete restoration to all as being as good as or better than before.

Job's a picture of that.  He said though God slay him, yet he would trust Him.  The next thing Job said is often left out.  He then proceeded to say "so I will bring/plead my case before His face".  We all know that God restored Job to the utmost.  IMO, a picture of His dealings with us individually as well as a whole.

To quote that famous verse  , He's got the whole world in His hands.

[rosered]

Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.

The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things.   We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.

While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did?  Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?

This goes back to our perception....   It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way,  but  that limit is irrelevant,  but to us it is indeed a limit.

That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation,  he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.

Good points Paul.  IMO, a picture of how we do see a glass darkly, and where there really is a point of placing our trust in Him.  Even (especially) for our very lives.  Because He's God and we're not, He knows what's best, and He has made MANY promises as to bringing all things for our good, and the total, complete restoration to all as being as good as or better than before.

Job's a picture of that.  He said though God slay him, yet he would trust Him.  The next thing Job said is often left out.  He then proceeded to say "so I will bring/plead my case before His face".  We all know that God restored Job to the utmost.  IMO, a picture of His dealings with us individually as well as a whole.

To quote that famous verse  , He's got the whole world in His hands.

  that was most uplifting and refreshing  Bro J!!!! whew !
   yes , you are right about Job , you know every time I read that book I can get more out of it than before  amazing ! 

[jabcat]

Thanks, and good comments rosie...that would make a very good study someday...so many ramifications of God and satan's interactions, God's foreknowledge, Job's role, the purpose(s) of the whole episode, God bringing it to its ultimate outcome...a thousand, maybe a million lessons there?  Maybe pray about starting a good, exhaustive thread on it sometime  .

God's blessings, James.

[rosered]

Thanks, and good comments rosie...that would make a very good study someday...so many ramifications of God and satan's interactions, God's foreknowledge, Job's role, the purpose(s) of the whole episode, God bringing it to its ultimate outcome...a thousand, maybe a million lessons there?  Maybe pray about starting a good, exhaustive thread on it sometime  .

God's blessings, James.

    Right on  Bro J! 
 There is soooo much in Job to ponder and so true a  million lessons so deep , to be searched out and  brought to the surface , as diving  for  treasures   kept in our hearts  for safe keeping 
 
  God bless you and yours always 

[peacemaker]

Did God have to create evil in order to create evil in the minds of men?

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1: 5)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man (James 1:13)

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (Romans 1 18)

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities; His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became ...... (Romans 1:20-22)

Is cold the absence of heat?
Blindness the absence of sight?
Hate the absence of love?
Darkness the absence of Light?

"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."

To remain in the sea is opposite of standing on the shore; and many refuse, or are unable to climb the mountain.
God did not create evil as is perceived by man, but does cause adversity.  And a catastrophe, disaster, calamity,
or times of trouble are not evil in and of themselves.

peacemaker

[pneuma]

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

That's an awesome quote! And the average Christian response at the end is hilarious! xD (Albeit, the destruction it's caused is sad...)

  I am far from your average christian, I also beleive in the restitution of all things, God sovereignty and many more things, I just see them different than others that beleive in these same things.

[pneuma]

Hi all, just stopped by to give some food for thought.

Scripture tells us the God is Love and Love worketh no evil.

Yet Isaiah 45:7 says

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How do we reconcile these seemingly warring scriptures?

Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.

So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.

Here is my translation of Is.45:7

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Does that not line up better with the rest of God's word and nature?

Genesis 1:1-3

…………and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I form the light and cut down the darkness.

God bless

  
 thanks Pneuma  
  I can see out of nothing/blank  as darkness too as WW noted    and Jabs post was  compelling
 
  and I do not Judge God in this , for He does take us out of darkness and  makes the LIGHT/ Knowledge of Him to Shine in our hearts  
 
 it is  saving grace to me  
 
 

your welcome Rose.

[pneuma]

God creating what we know to exist is why God is responsible, without doing so evil had no chance to exist.

This raises the point I have been trying to make in many threads over this.

Is it possible that God could have created us without any possibility of evil existing?


If so, then how does that not cause Gods loving character to be questionable?

paul all I'll say is it has to deal with the ages, sovereignty denotes kingship, and it is not until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of Christ will God will be done in the earth.