I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[sparrow]

That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation,  he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.

There are sooo many hardships in this life, and, in the U.S. where we live, we probably have not seen too many of them compared to other parts of the world. I do find some comfort in the fact that God placed Himself down here in the mess to experience it for Himself. He knows what we go through because He went through it too..more than most of us because most of us, though some have, don't have to give our lives for our faith. Being persuaded of God's unexplainable love for His creation  and His plan for a happy ending helps eliminate hard feeling toward Him for the  present human situation. We, who know that love, should be trying ever harder to make it known to eveybody we come in contact with.

Debbie

Amen, sis.
Excellent post.
Thank you.

[willieH]

Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so

We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.

Believers in the idea that Gods character  fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.   

I didn't speak against that Paul... 

I did not say that we cannot or should not observe the character of God...

I said that if we QUESTION that character, then we have stepped "out of bounds"...   

For the WORD says -- "shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that formed, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" -- Rom 9:20

What I am saying is after your or my "examination" of that character, it does not line up with what WE consider as "acceptable"... Such is NOT our determination OR RIGHT, to make. 

For the Scripture also says just before the portion I just quoted -- "Nay, but O MAN, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [talks back] AGAINST God?" -- Rom 9:20

...willieH 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so

We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.

Believers in the idea that Gods character  fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.   

I didn't speak against that Paul... 

I did not say that we cannot or should not observe the character of God...

I said that if we QUESTION that character, then we have stepped "out of bounds"...   

For the WORD says -- "shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that formed, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" -- Rom 9:20

What I am saying is after your or my "examination" of that character, it does not line up with what WE consider as "acceptable"... Such is NOT our determination OR RIGHT, to make. 

For the Scripture also says just before the portion I just quoted -- "Nay, but O MAN, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [talks back] AGAINST God?" -- Rom 9:20

...willieH 

I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am.    I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

I do not question that and accept it easily.

[pneuma]

Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so

We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.

Believers in the idea that Gods character  fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.   

I didn't speak against that Paul... 

I did not say that we cannot or should not observe the character of God...

I said that if we QUESTION that character, then we have stepped "out of bounds"...   

For the WORD says -- "shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that formed, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" -- Rom 9:20

What I am saying is after your or my "examination" of that character, it does not line up with what WE consider as "acceptable"... Such is NOT our determination OR RIGHT, to make. 

For the Scripture also says just before the portion I just quoted -- "Nay, but O MAN, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [talks back] AGAINST God?" -- Rom 9:20

...willieH 

I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am.    I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

I do not question that and accept it easily.

[peacemaker]

I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness." 

[pneuma]

I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness." 

Hi PM I think that is what Paul was saying, at least thats the way understood him.

[peacemaker]

I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness." 

I think that is what Paul was saying, at least that's the way I understood him.

Indeed, that's what I thought he declared  And I am in agreement with him.

[peacemaker]

... maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.

Ask questions from the heart; they will be answered.

Personally, I have never been to either camp, which I respectfully submit as I have always been "caught-up" between them . Having the knowledge from the beginning of the Reconciliation of All Things and an understanding of  "Hell No We Won't Go" there.

"There is no choice in absolute perfection, only in that which is imperfect at present."

peacemaker

[pneuma]

... maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.

Ask questions from the heart; they will be answered.

Personally, I have never been to either camp, which I respectfully submit as I have always been "caught-up" between them . Having the knowledge from the beginning of the Reconciliation of All Things and an understanding of  "Hell No We Won't Go" there.

"There is no choice in absolute perfection, only in that which is imperfect at present."

peacemaker

Hi PM not sure I understand ya, are you saying God does not have a choice about saving us, that He has to because of His nature?
If so I am on board with that.

[peacemaker]

... maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.

Ask questions from the heart; they will be answered.

Personally, I have never been to either camp, which I respectfully submit as I have always been "caught-up" between them . Having the knowledge from the beginning of the Reconciliation of All Things and an understanding of  "Hell No We Won't Go" there.

"There is no choice in absolute perfection, only in that which is imperfect at present."

... not sure I understand ya, are you saying God does not have a choice about saving us, that He has to because of His nature?

If so I am on board with that.

The choice to do as he pleases, is His; anything less is not Sovereign.
However, He's not just sovereign only—He is Holy!

[willieH]

I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am.    I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

IMO there is no evidence that "He planned" anything... HE is working ALL THINGS, and WE are amongst what amounts to, "ALL THINGS" -- Eph 1:11

GOD did not "plan" for you (or I) to sin but you (and I) do, because His FOREKNOWLEDGE of "your (and my) sin" ...ORDAINED that you (and I) comply with that FOREKNOWLEDGE... Rom 9:11

What GOD "Foreknows" cannot occur otherwise... and His perfect "FOREKNOWLEDGE" is NOT determined by US (imperfect "decision makers") and our doings... it is the other way around... 

That is how I see it, ...each of us have a viewpoint of this... both have the potential to be inaccurate... 

...willieH 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am.    I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

IMO there is no evidence that "He planned" anything... HE is working ALL THINGS, and WE are amongst what amounts to, "ALL THINGS" -- Eph 1:11

Hi Willie,

Perhaps "planned" is not an accurate word, my point comes from two verses.

The first is Proverbs 5:21 the word "ponder" or "consider" seems to be the words  used in the translations I have looked at, but the definitions primary meaning is  "To prepare the way" which implies at least some similar concept.

The second is

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Not every thing man conceives of is possible even for God.  For instance,  if I read a verse that says "all things are possible through Christ who strengthens me" I then can feel all goose bumpy about that, but  if I then say, well since all things are possible then through Christ I should be able to cheat on my wife and not sin.  So we soon prove that all things are not possible and that ALL in this issue has a context.

It is these cliche phrases that Christians don't really think about much that gets them into theological trouble.   God does have what "appears" to us as limits, but it is irrelevant that we perceive them as such.   The verse that "God creates evil" has been so literalized that few see that God is responsible for evil because he set forth creation, but creation was set forth on a journey to perfection, but there are things that must be in order to get us there and God cannot change them.  So evil is real, it is as real as we are, but it is not a result of God purposely making evil if in his limitless power did not have to.

  God simply says,  "Look here, your experiencing evil and there is no other way for you to be like me, that's just how it is, you will understand one day as there is no other way.  It is my fault because I started this, but do not fear as it has no power to prevent your arrival in my arms"

GOD did not "plan" for you (or I) to sin but you (and I) do, because His FOREKNOWLEDGE of "your (and my) sin" ...ORDAINED that you (and I) comply with that FOREKNOWLEDGE... Rom 9:11

I agree that God did not plan for us to sin.  We sin because even God cannot change the path we are on to righteousness.  He prepared for what must be so that nothing can fail to get us there.

What GOD "Foreknows" cannot occur otherwise... and His perfect "FOREKNOWLEDGE" is NOT determined by US (imperfect "decision makers") and our doings... it is the other way around... 

Foreknowlege in the realm of a being who can see beginning to end does not mean we were not free to choose from the preferences of our own will, it simply means that God was able to ensure that freedom could not derail salvation for each of us.  But as we know, many of us took a wide path of destruction before coming to believe and some actually took a much narrower path. 

The moral question concerning some views about this issue then is rightly raised as I have explained in other posts in this thread.

That is how I see it, ...each of us have a viewpoint of this... both have the potential to be inaccurate... 

Of course, the main point I made with what you said is that the right to question "God" is more about questioning what we perceive or what we are told by others.

If I disagree and question what you say to me I think you know that is not the same as questioning God.

So perhaps the question is, at what point are we actually questioning our maker in opposition to where scripture makes a mention of the futility of such?

[Beloved Servant]

HUH???
Paul, I know I'm not involved in your discussion with willieH but,
if you please, would you please rephrase your last line.
Thanks.

[Paul Hazelwood]

HUH???
Paul, I know I'm not involved in your discussion with willieH but,
if you please, would you please rephrase your last line.
Thanks.

I'll try,  if it is said we do not have the right to question God then when can it be known that we are questioning the very maker himself and not just questioning the aspect of what someone says God is.

Hope that helps.

[Beloved Servant]

Job 11:7
"Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
Psalm 145:3
Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.


Are these scripts on topic?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Job 11:7
"Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
Psalm 145:3
Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.


Are these scripts on topic?

Certainly are.


I know that God is Love, and to love my enemies is not something I actually can fathom.  I am glad God is greater than my understanding.

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUd4-dxAm-E

just listen Paul.

We need to take on His nature.

But, it's His doing, not ours.

A hardened heart has no room for His birth.

And Christ will not rise from a tomb of unforgiveness.

[Paul Hazelwood]

just listen Paul.

We need to take on His nature.

But, it's His doing, not ours.

A hardened heart has no room for His birth.

And Christ will not rise from a tomb of unforgiveness.

So, you do not like what I am saying so I have a hardened heart and am in unforgivness?

I am not watching the video.   Youtube, the new church.

[Beloved Servant]

I was simply addressing your statement: " to love my enemies is not something I actually can fathom."
That's all.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I was simply addressing your statement: " to love my enemies is not something I actually can fathom."
That's all.

Alright, but then you appear to be saying I can based on a youtube video after posting verses showing our inability to fathom God.

And make comments using the words hardheartedness and unforgiveness without explaining what my comment did to cause you to use them. 

Just  FYI I do not watch youtube videos for much more than entertainment and no offense, but youtube seems to be taking the place of believers fellowship.  Just my opinion, but if you need to tell me something, then tell me.

It not that I do not see the concept of loving an enemy, it is not that I hate my enemies nor am I unforgiving towards them but to pretend to fathom the depths at which God does is not something I will do.   

[Beloved Servant]

Understood.

And the video is just a beautiful song.

Music has a wonderful affect on me, I thought I would share something beautiful.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

My option is that that statement is true and that God did and does create evil, now also the sin issue pasted in to this equation is if sin is evil, God dose use evil for good, but talking to Jews at the age of Law,(before the time of Christ) all Gentiles were dogs and "had" no part in the giving of life, IF they followed the law, so THEN God used evil to sway His chosen and NOW uses evil to sway His Grace Chosen people, Non-followers of Law, All 640 of them.
Hartley Damboise II @ sinfree@gmx.com
Adult only email me if you chose

[sparrow]

My option is that that statement is true and that God did and does create evil, now also the sin issue pasted in to this equation is if sin is evil, God dose use evil for good, but talking to Jews at the age of Law,(before the time of Christ) all Gentiles were dogs and "had" no part in the giving of life, IF they followed the law, so THEN God used evil to sway His chosen and NOW uses evil to sway His Grace Chosen people, Non-followers of Law, All 640 of them.
Hartley Damboise II @ sinfree@gmx.com
Adult only email me if you chose

to the bolded: in whose eyes?
(just want to clarify where you're coming from)

and why do you say "all 640 of them"? EDIT: oh nevermind! lol. you're talking about LAWS. 640 laws. I thought you were talking about 640 grace-chosen people.  I read it wrong.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... 

I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am.    I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.

IMO there is no evidence that "He planned" anything... HE is working ALL THINGS, and WE are amongst what amounts to, "ALL THINGS" -- Eph 1:11

Hi Willie,

Perhaps "planned" is not an accurate word, my point comes from two verses.

The first is Proverbs 5:21 the word "ponder" or "consider" seems to be the words  used in the translations I have looked at, but the definitions primary meaning is  "To prepare the way" which implies at least some similar concept.

One of the things about a "PLAN" is that it can be disruppted or fail... however, in THIS CASE... ALL THINGS are already NOTED in PERFECTION (by GOD's perfect DECLARATION made by his PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE), and are according to that  PERFECT PREPARATION... which cannot fail to accomplish the PURPOSE for which they are intended...

Is not the idea of "PREPARED" an observation of something which is ALREADY in place? The word "PONDERETH" [#H6424] PALAC which means to ROLL FLAT or PREPARE... rather than "CONSIDER"... 

If one is PREPARING, then that PREPARATION (what is IN PLACE) is that which is "CONSIDERED", rather than the "arrival" of the one which "experiences" that which was "PREPARED" and "in place"... 

I play music, and oftentimes go ahead of the performance to set the equipment up... PREPARING to (later on) play the music... When I arrive for the performance, the equipment, which is already IN PLACE is the vehicle upon which the performance "rides"...  So is the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, the preparation of what we "DO"... which entails the PERFECT accomplishment  of His Purpose FOR US...

The second is

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Not every thing man conceives of is possible even for God.

Might I interrupt for a moment -- NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for or with, GOD... NOTHING!  That a given observer of GOD's movements considers something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD, is about the LACK of the ability to completely observe, NOT that something is able to be concieved by Man, and because man percieves it to be IMPOSSIBLE, he therefore determines it NOT POSSIBLE for God.

This is a variation of thought, such as the -- "can God make a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift" type of observation which is often made sarcastically by Athiests... Is easily answerable.  The answer being YES... but it is not due to GOD being unable to LIFT it... it is due to HIS ORDAINATION that NO ONE, including Himself, is to LIFT IT, according to HIS WILL and PURPOSE... 

For instance,  if I read a verse that says "all things are possible through Christ who strengthens me" I then can feel all goose bumpy about that, but  if I then say, well since all things are possible then through Christ I should be able to cheat on my wife and not sin.  So we soon prove that all things are not possible and that ALL in this issue has a context.

ALL things that are POSSIBLE "through CHRIST" do NOT include "cheating on ones wife", Paul...  Those "ALL THINGS" are in accordance with the standard of morality within GOD, which does not include those TRANSGRESSIONS of that "standard"...

It is these cliche phrases that Christians don't really think about much that gets them into theological trouble.   God does have what "appears" to us as limits, but it is irrelevant that we perceive them as such.   The verse that "God creates evil" has been so literalized that few see that God is responsible for evil because he set forth creation, but creation was set forth on a journey to perfection, but there are things that must be in order to get us there and God cannot change them.  So evil is real, it is as real as we are, but it is not a result of God purposely making evil if in his limitless power did not have to.

It is not a question of "God cannot change them", ... it is that God had ORDAINED them to BE... and they AS THEY ARE, are not IN NEED of "change"...

Obviously within God's LIMITLESS power, it is NECESSARY according to DIVINE DECREE (declaring the end from the beginning - Isaiah 46:10)... That "we" should observe this journey as UNNECESSARY only notes our inability to "see" the BIG (Divine) Picture... 

God simply says,  "Look here, your experiencing evil and there is no other way for you to be like me, that's just how it is, you will understand one day as there is no other way.  It is my fault because I started this, but do not fear as it has no power to prevent your arrival in my arms"

Not sure what version or where this quote is located, so I'll reserve commentary on it. 

GOD did not "plan" for you (or I) to sin but you (and I) do, because His FOREKNOWLEDGE of "your (and my) sin" ...ORDAINED that you (and I) comply with that FOREKNOWLEDGE... Rom 9:11

I agree that God did not plan for us to sin.  We sin because even God cannot change the path we are on to righteousness.  He prepared for what must be so that nothing can fail to get us there.

 

What GOD "Foreknows" cannot occur otherwise... and His perfect "FOREKNOWLEDGE" is NOT determined by US (imperfect "decision makers") and our doings... it is the other way around... 

Foreknowlege in the realm of a being who can see beginning to end does not mean we were not free to choose from the preferences of our own will, it simply means that God was able to ensure that freedom could not derail salvation for each of us.

 

That is your opinion brother P... and you are welcome to it... however... That GOD PERFECTLY "FOREKNEW" all that MEN (who had yet to exist), would DO... cannot ALTER  that FOREKNOWLEDGE -- via any "decisions" those men would make, when they eventually came to "exist". 

IOW... the car is designed to start upon the ignition key being turned... and the manufacturer has built it to THAT SPECIFICATION... that the "purchaser" of the car, eventually TURNS the key, does NOT make him the innovator of this parameter (the key starting the car) by his "decision" to -- turn it... 

But as we know, many of us took a wide path of destruction before coming to believe and some actually took a much narrower path.

And ALL those "pathways" are being chosen by GOD to UNFOLD they way HE foreknew them, as they unfold...  As is PLAINLY noted in Rom 9:11 and DETAILED in the verses following.

That is how I see it, ...each of us have a viewpoint of this... both have the potential to be inaccurate... 

Of course, the main point I made with what you said is that the right to question "God" is more about questioning what we perceive or what we are told by others.

If I disagree and question what you say to me I think you know that is not the same as questioning God.

So perhaps the question is, at what point are we actually questioning our maker in opposition to where scripture makes a mention of the futility of such?

I guess we shall find out one day brother Paul... For now, I believe we each walk a pathway which is ORDAINED by God that we walk... and each pathway is directly or indirectly interconnected to everyone else which is -- GOD working all things "with us all", for HIS PURPOSE to be accomplished, "for us all"...

...willieH 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Is not the idea of "PREPARED" an observation of something which is ALREADY in place? The word "PONDERETH" [#H6424] PALAC which means to ROLL FLAT or PREPARE... rather than "CONSIDER"... 

Yes, because he saw what we would do with our will before hand.   None of this prevent us from being individuals that are trained to be one with God.

Might I interrupt for a moment -- NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for or with, GOD... NOTHING! 

Then God can become evil and most likely is if he ordained rape murder and all the other horrible things man does to one another if he did not have to.

 

I guess we shall find out one day brother Paul

I'm not afraid of finding out,. in fact I look forward to it.