I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  brother Scott... 

Hi Willie, I have been over all your point already with others in this thread and the potter and his clay thread.

What "point" Scott? 

Be specific...

That you have stated something elsewhere is basically irrelevant bro... answer me, or don't...    But don't make excuses... 

And I cannot defend what I believe because of the taboo placed upon this board, while you and everyone else can post away about God sovereignty at will. The cards are all stacked against me here brother in this regard.

I have NOT mentioned "sovereignty" at all in my discussion with you... I am able to note my beliefs without arguing or using the term "sovereignty",  ...simply because (I believe) they are TRUTHFUL without use of this word...  If your beliefs cannot be substanciated without the useage of the words "free will"...then they are exposed for what they are BY the Scriptures... You are welcome to use ANY SCRIPTURE you choose to prove your positions...

I AM curious though... 

Where does it say:  "GOD DID, what He DID NOT ...want... to DO", Scott?  Why are you avoiding the substanciating of this statement made by YOU, bro?

Thus, it would be foolish of me to continue to debate something when I can only use PART of the scriptures and not all of them. It would be like fighting with one arm tied behind my back.

Please brother!

I am sure GARY and the MOD STAFF here WILL NOT prevent you from using ANY and ALL SCRIPTURE that you wish to use to substanciate yourself...  It is arguing the terminologies of "sovereignty" and its opposing "free will" that are to be avoided... 

To preach and quote the SCRIPTURES is NOT being inhibited here at all... 

It like this brother say I had a board and I said to you, you cannot talk about God sovereignty because it upsets me and others on the board.

How would you explain God sovereignty if you cannot talk about His sovereignty, do you think it would be a fair debate?

I would use the SCRIPTURES to prove my viewpoint.  A given term in ENGLISH is not where SPIRITUALITY lies, nor are these terms ("sovereignty/free will') required in order to convey the TRUTH.  If you have TRUTH, you shall be able to CONVEY it to another, without using terms which are ABSENT from the SCRIPTURES, such as the terms --  "free will" or "sovereignty".

Now don't go reading into my sovereignty example as though I don't believe in Gods sovereignty because I do, I just understand if differently than most do.

I certainly will not attach anything to you.  You are welcome to believe as you do.  It is NOT my agenda to change you in any way.  Just to convey via discussion, my current observations... which are seeking correction, if they are in need of it. 

Said discussions have helped me along my pathway, ever since becoming a member here.  And as I said in my previous post to you... YOU have helped me on occasion, and have especially stimulated me to a deeper "digging" in the field of the WORD on those occasions!

Therefore, I will bow out of any further discussions here at tents as there is not the liberty that at one time this board had.

That is your right dear brother.  That said however, ...I think your observation of this forum is quite closed-minded. 

Of all the forums I visit and/or have visited, ...this one has the wisest membership, and time spent here has been by FAR the most profitable to me.  Along with that, I have been banned here, and IN that BAN, was stripped of MOD status... however, those are meant to be, for GOD is working ALL THINGS...

So it is HIS decision that those things occured... and if I am truly seeking Him, I shall focus in on the POSITIVES that Tentmaker stands for, instead of the NEGATIVES that might personally "ruffle my feathers"... You have the right to address this in your own way bro, and I do not demean you for it, and wish you WELL in your further pursuit of GOD and His WORD! 

2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Now I am not saying no one here has the Spirit of the Lord (please don't read that into my statement) I am just saying I don't have the liberty to post what the Spirit of the Lord gives me.

God bless each and every one of you.

You and your wisdoms will be sorely missed bro...  Please keep in mind, that in our individual search for PERFECTION and COMPATIBILITY, that WE bring and possess our own PORTION of IMPERFECTION and INCOMPATIBILITY which we donate, toward any given one, ...and into whatever scenario we enter into and become a part...

So to seek a place that is COMPLETELY alligned with US and our "ideas" of LIBERTY and SPIRITUALITY, ...is probably not gonna happen, and we must therefore guard against becoming a "PHARISEE" (not calling you that), and seek to be as was the "PUBLICAN" (not calling you that either)  -- Luke 18:10-14 --  for in these TWO we see HUMILITY in one, and PIOUSNESS in the other.

We all love you brother Scott -- 

...willieH 

[Doc]

Hi Doc. As I cannot quote things the way I use to (the board jumps all over the place, can't even see what I am typing, and if I try to quote individual statements it really goes haywire) I will try to answer your questions the best I can, but if I miss answering one let me know ok.

Actually, it did answer your question Doc, perishing is the same perishing used in God not does not will that any should perish.

I was actually referring to the other points, not the question of what was meant by perishing...

So if it is not His will that any perish, yet people perish throughout scripture obviously they are perishing against His will.

I know people talk about God permissive or stated will and Gods ultimate will, but Gods will is God will. Permissive will is mans invention to understand how people can go against God will.

Except that what I'm talking about isn't really the same thing. God says that he wills or desires certain things (thelo), but that isn't always the way they go in the short term. However, God does get his way (will) in the end (boulemai). This is his ultimate intention. Often there is an already/ not yet tension in the scripture that contrasts the way things "are" vs. the way they "will be". God will accomplish all his will and desire however, so those perishing are still doing so according to his boulemai in spite of the appearance of going against his thelo for the short term.
 
"Permissive will" is a term used by people who cannot reconcile what they see in the world with a loving God. That's not what I'm talking about

No mans choices cannot trump God's ultimate plan.

But Gods ultimate plan is to make us in His image and likeness.

In the garden man had the right to the tree of life but because of mans choice he lost that right. So if God planned man to be disobedient from the get go why was the tree of life in the garden?
Gods ultimate plan was and is through the tree of life, NOT through disobedience and death. Mans ways=death, Gods ways=Life the two ways are contradictory to each other, yet many seem to believe Gods ways include man's ways, go figure.

I could turn this around and state it in the reverse; If God did not plan for the disobedience of man, then why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? You're right, God's ultimate plan was and is through the tree of life, but man had to take the disobedience and death detour.

There are two ways to Gods ultimate plan of making man in His image and likeness, the strait gate and the broad way that leadeth to destruction, and it depends on mans choices which way man goes. God predestines man to LIFE and man will ultimately find that LIFE, God does not predestine man to sin and disobedience.

If there are two ways for God to accomplish his ultimate will, which is the "right" way? He makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. We have no trouble saying that God predestines the ones made for honor, why do we have trouble saying this for the vessels made for dishonor? Particularly when God has admitted responsibility for this?
 

God does not withhold mans choices, they are always open to man, but He will limit mans choices once man is disobedient. Adam could freely eat from the tree of life, but after his disobedience, he could not access that tree again until he went through fire and sword.

I don't believe I said God does not allow choices. I'm saying that these choices do not represent freewill on our part.

The strait gate and the broad way was before him, he chose the broad way through fire and sword, but he could have chose LIFE from the get go.

Perhaps, but this is speculation. Because of what actually happened, we don't know that it could have happened another way.

 
No none of this affects God's sovereignty, because Gods sovereignty is NOT of this world. Like I have said before sovereignty denotes kingship, and we don't find that kingship on this earth until the kingdom age when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, it is only then that He will reign (be sovereign) on earth just like He is in Heaven.

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

Note that the prayer not only says thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but that the prayer is also for His KINGDOM to come. It is NOT a redundant prayer, therefore His kingdom has NOT come, and His will is not being done YET on this earth.

But God's sovereignty is over this world, even if not of it. Before Christ was crucified, he said; "now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.

God hardened pharaoh's heart not to let the Israelites go when he wanted to, forcing him to hang on a little longer than he would have otherwise. To harden means to strengthen, so in a sense you could say that God is already working with what's there. However, this is still a clear case of God's will overriding man's, even if man shares in the hardening. Then there is Jonah and the Apostle Paul....

Yes God works all things according to the counsel of his will, but can you find in scripture that God's will is for sin and disobedience?

Sin and disobedience are NOT according to the counsel of God's will.

I'm sorry, I didn't catch which part of all things there was not being worked according to the counsel of his will...

What people think that scripture is referring to is that because God works according to His will, it must mean that He then willed for man's disobedience and sin, but we know that disobedience and sin is NOT according to His will.

People perishing are NOT according to His will, yet many seem to think it is according to His will.

We're back to thelo and boulemai again. God works all. A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

I am not going to dwell on this point but you said freewill is not even recorded in scripture, and many seem to believe that without actually looking at the scriptures to if that is true, or they try to look it up by looking for free will, but it is not two words it is one word, freewill and it is used in scripture 26 times in the OT.

I'll just give you two, you can look up the rest if you want to.

Leviticus 23:38
38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Ezekiel 46:12
12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.

So you can see freewill is in scripture and it must then be taken into account to make the scriptures mesh with each other. For it should go without saying if we leave out scripture we can make the bible say anything we want it to.
God bless

The word there (in both passages) translated 'freewill' is n'dabah and is translated in some places as 'voluntary'. But it really means spontaneous. This does not support the concept of freewill as we hold it today. We make spontaneous choices that are still caused/ influenced by something or someone.

[jabcat]

Article by Gary Amirault
 
"Recently, a local pastor gave a sermon that declared God absolutely sovereign over everything except man's will... Few who embrace Arminianism realize that by doing so, they have actually made themselves the absolute Sovereign, therefore making themselves god."

The rest here - http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-SovereigntyScriptures.html

[Pierac]

Another good one here...  http://spiritword.home.att.net/Adams/spirit_5.htm


Paul

[jabcat]

Ooh, I like this line from that article Paul;

Let us by all means fit our theology to the Bible; and not try, as many do, to conform the Bible to our theology.

[Doc]

Good articles!

One minor problem I perhaps have with the one at the link Paul posted. The author claims that God judges only on the basis of intention, not action, but I think the parable of the sheep and goats makes it clear that he also judges based on our actions.

[jabcat]

From Harold Lovelace's website, by Gary Marks;

We shall see that God uses the forces of evil to bring about good. Indeed, the greatest good of the universe comes from God's use of evil to accomplish His purpose.

...evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin. But let me offer you the following facts for your consideration: God has control over Satan and all evil. Notice what God said to the serpent in Genesis 3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise [literally, crush] thy head." Now this will take place in accord with God's purpose, for Paul writes in Romans 16:20, "Now the God of peace will be crushing Satan under your feet swiftly." Why does God wait to crush the head of the serpent? Why does He not crush him on the spot? No, there is still a need for the work of the serpent in God's plan and purpose. God has control over the movement of the serpent. He can only go as, and where, God permits. He is anything but free in his activities and he cannot defy the God Who made him. Read the first two chapters of Job and see how God restrained Satan in his dealings with this patriarch. He could go just so far and no further. And what did Satan's evil upon Job produce? Why, it just proved God's word to be true. God had said that Job was righteous, and all the evil that Satan wrought but heralded the fact that God is true and that His word is immutable.

Satan is not a problem to God, and He has no difficulty in disposing of the cunning serpent. How can I believe that Satan deceived Eve contrary to the will of God, when God unlocks him so that he can deceive the nations? If Eve's deception was contrary to God's purpose, why did not God lock up the serpent prior to his entrance into the garden? And why must Satan be loosed again at the close of the thousand years? Does not this tell us that God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities?

The key that unlocks the door to our understanding of the purpose of evil lies in two secrets made known by the apostle Paul....1 Corinthians 2:6-8: "Yet wisdom are we speaking among the mature, yet a wisdom not of this eon, neither of the chief men of this eon, who are being discarded, but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates beforehand, before the eons, for our glory, which not one of the chief men of this eon knows, for if they know, they would not crucify the Lord of glory." These...secrets deal with the exit or the repudiation of sin. 

It should not be difficult for us to see that all that took place concerning the death of Christ was a part of God's plan and purpose. But it was concealed from those who were the actors. The word translated "designates beforehand" in 1 Corinthians 2:6,7, is the same Greek word with the prefix "before." The cross of Christ was designated beforehand, before when? Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all should be delivered from death and sin, for He designated these things for our glory. So we read in Acts 4:27,28, "For of a truth, in this city were gathered against Thy holy Boy Jesus, Whom Thou dost anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the nations and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel designates beforehand to occur."

Yes, God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom. The concealing of the secret was only for the fulfilling of His purpose. It is in Paul's writings that God's secrets are made known. True, Jesus made known the secrets of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13). And even in that secret, evil forms a major part, such as Israel's blindness. But the secrets that reveal the complement of God's purpose are found only in Paul's writings. Yet almost all teaching today is void of all the secrets Paul made known. Not only are they ignored, that would be cause enough for concern, but they are usually denied. Failure to see that Paul had a special ministry, and the practice of trying to make his ministry fit that which is written concerning Israel and the earthly kingdom, blinds many eyes to God's purpose of evil. To some, evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. The only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus.

[sheila]

   Samson's marriage

   Judges 14

   'I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah;now get her for me

   as a wife'   His father and mother replied,'Isn't there an

acceptable woman among your relatives or among our people?

 Must you go to the uncircumcized Philistines to get a wife?"


   But Samson said 'Get her for me,she is the right one for me'

 [His parents did not know this was from the Lord,who was

seeking an occassion to confront the Philistines; for at that

time they were ruling over Israel]


  This is one example  of the Lord working something that would

  seem contrary to HIS WILL for His own purpose.

                              Sheila

[Paul Hazelwood]

I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked,  "in my opinion".


Not a one of us in this thread thinks that evil can over power God.  We often argue that the logic of ET ultimatly shows evil can overpower God, but few in their mind actually believes evil is more powerful than God.

But thats not the issue really.   The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.

If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?

This is the area where Christians often think Atheists are in an unbelief in God but that is not true in many cases, they are often arguing that the assertions and phrases Christians promote God with are in fact contradictory to scripture.

[sheila]

   what if....He knew what evil was....and has done all this

  [sought an occassion] to UTTERLY DESTROY IT?

   we know it was in heaven first..and rejected of HIM...

  what if...us being down here in the midst of it...was just

  the occassion He was seeking to utterly destroy it?

  what if He raised it up..to destroy it...what if He lowered us

  to raise us up?

                             Sheila


 

[jabcat]

I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked,  "in my opinion".

But thats not the issue really.   The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.

If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?

Just clarifying;  I may be wrong, but I think the OP's point, and Scott's usual points argue against God's creation of and/or use of evil at all.  I understand it as a belief that man was disobedient and used their will against what God really wanted, and continues to do so...that God really wants something else for His creation but man is thwarting it until God eventually corrects it somehow. 

It sounds like you're taking it into really trying to understand God's purposes for creating evil and His use of it rather than working things in a different direction, maybe even a direction or process that didn't involve the use of evil at all?   And I'll admit, some of the intricacies of that question is beyond my personal understanding at this point.  I'm speaking for myself (and I know that doesn't necessarily "wash" for you Paul), I'm speaking for me.  I just have to go into a "God is God and I'm not" mode to keep from having (what I believe for me) is a bad attitude and (TOO MUCH SO) questioning my Maker.

Again, just clarifying that I do believe your question (and I think I've seen you want to ponder this earlier in the thread) is more along the lines of the process rather than an argument that "God didn't do it" in the first place.  Is that right?

And have a great day!   

[Seth]

   Samson's marriage

   Judges 14

   'I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah;now get her for me

   as a wife'   His father and mother replied,'Isn't there an

acceptable woman among your relatives or among our people?

 Must you go to the uncircumcized Philistines to get a wife?"


   But Samson said 'Get her for me,she is the right one for me'

 [His parents did not know this was from the Lord,who was

seeking an occassion to confront the Philistines; for at that

time they were ruling over Israel]


  This is one example  of the Lord working something that would

  seem contrary to HIS WILL for His own purpose.

                              Sheila

Great point. I remember seeing that when I read the OT and smiling. There are many more examples too which are like that throughout the OT. Here is another:

1 Samuel 19:8-10
Once more war broke out, and David went out and fought the Philistines. He struck them with such force that they fled before him. But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall. That night David made good his escape.

[sparrow]

I still believe that evil must exist in this world and we are to experience this contrast of good and evil so (love and non-love) so that we can finally understand WHO God is. (by way of contrast.) What better way than to have us just experience it? For all that it is?
EXHAUST it once and for all. So it never rears it's ugly head again? We would never end up clinging to HIM and finding and seeing and understanding our LIFE IN Him without first being somewhat SEPARATED from Him and standing back and taking a look at what He... IS... and what He.. ISN'T.  Do you know what I mean?

I think it is really simple.
But human beings make it really difficult and convoluted.
I really do.

I think children understand God better than adults.
But going through and being an adult helps you to EVENTUALLY understand God even better. Because of the life experience of the contrast of good and evil (love and non-love) (What God IS and what God isn't.) Some see part of the picture now. but ALL will SEE the WHOLE picture eventually. No fear. Everything is going to be ok.
He is working everything out for GOOD.

 

[Paul Hazelwood]

 Do you know what I mean?

Yes, there can be no other way.

[Beloved Servant]

God placed the Tree of Life in the garden.
God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.
God placed all the other trees in the garden.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sister S! 

I still believe that evil must exist in this world and we are to experience this contrast of good and evil so (love and non-love) so that we can finally understand WHO God is. (by way of contrast.) What better way than to have us just experience it? For all that it is?
EXHAUST it once and for all. So it never rears it's ugly head again? We would never end up clinging to HIM and finding and seeing and understanding our LIFE IN Him without first being somewhat SEPARATED from Him and standing back and taking a look at what He... IS... and what He.. ISN'T.  Do you know what I mean?

I think it is really simple.
But human beings make it really difficult and convoluted.
I really do.

I think children understand God better than adults.
But going through and being an adult helps you to EVENTUALLY understand God even better. Because of the life experience of the contrast of good and evil (love and non-love) (What God IS and what God isn't.) Some see part of the picture now. but ALL will SEE the WHOLE picture eventually. No fear. Everything is going to be ok.
He is working everything out for GOOD.

 

WAY GOOD post sis!   

I agree... Children are INNOCENT in their beginning, and then become participants in the KNOWLEDGE... It is also interesting that we "can't wait to grow up", and once firmly upon that "arrival"...  we begin to wish we were children again... 

We are born (begin life here  ), and then... in that moment, take our first step in the "march" to our death. 

The further we, as a race move from the beginning INNOCENCE (Adam & Eve) which was COMPLETELY INNOCENT for Both were "born" DIRECTLY from the Hand of GOD... each step our Race has taken from there into the future, is a more DEGENERATIVE one, than the one before it...

Just as our BEGINNING is NEWLY ALIVE -- YOUNG, beautiful, innocent (blameless) and grows into strength... then life eventually deteriorates and grows into weakness, deceitfulness (blameable) and ugly... and in its END, becomes OLD and finally, DEAD.

Praise God, there is better to come for ALL... 

...willieH 

[Doc]

From Harold Lovelace's website, by Gary Marks;

We shall see that God uses the forces of evil to bring about good. Indeed, the greatest good of the universe comes from God's use of evil to accomplish His purpose.

...evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin. But let me offer you the following facts for your consideration: God has control over Satan and all evil. Notice what God said to the serpent in Genesis 3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise [literally, crush] thy head." Now this will take place in accord with God's purpose, for Paul writes in Romans 16:20, "Now the God of peace will be crushing Satan under your feet swiftly." Why does God wait to crush the head of the serpent? Why does He not crush him on the spot? No, there is still a need for the work of the serpent in God's plan and purpose. God has control over the movement of the serpent. He can only go as, and where, God permits. He is anything but free in his activities and he cannot defy the God Who made him. Read the first two chapters of Job and see how God restrained Satan in his dealings with this patriarch. He could go just so far and no further. And what did Satan's evil upon Job produce? Why, it just proved God's word to be true. God had said that Job was righteous, and all the evil that Satan wrought but heralded the fact that God is true and that His word is immutable.

Satan is not a problem to God, and He has no difficulty in disposing of the cunning serpent. How can I believe that Satan deceived Eve contrary to the will of God, when God unlocks him so that he can deceive the nations? If Eve's deception was contrary to God's purpose, why did not God lock up the serpent prior to his entrance into the garden? And why must Satan be loosed again at the close of the thousand years? Does not this tell us that God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities?

The key that unlocks the door to our understanding of the purpose of evil lies in two secrets made known by the apostle Paul....1 Corinthians 2:6-8: "Yet wisdom are we speaking among the mature, yet a wisdom not of this eon, neither of the chief men of this eon, who are being discarded, but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates beforehand, before the eons, for our glory, which not one of the chief men of this eon knows, for if they know, they would not crucify the Lord of glory." These...secrets deal with the exit or the repudiation of sin. 

It should not be difficult for us to see that all that took place concerning the death of Christ was a part of God's plan and purpose. But it was concealed from those who were the actors. The word translated "designates beforehand" in 1 Corinthians 2:6,7, is the same Greek word with the prefix "before." The cross of Christ was designated beforehand, before when? Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all should be delivered from death and sin, for He designated these things for our glory. So we read in Acts 4:27,28, "For of a truth, in this city were gathered against Thy holy Boy Jesus, Whom Thou dost anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the nations and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel designates beforehand to occur."

Yes, God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom. The concealing of the secret was only for the fulfilling of His purpose. It is in Paul's writings that God's secrets are made known. True, Jesus made known the secrets of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13). And even in that secret, evil forms a major part, such as Israel's blindness. But the secrets that reveal the complement of God's purpose are found only in Paul's writings. Yet almost all teaching today is void of all the secrets Paul made known. Not only are they ignored, that would be cause enough for concern, but they are usually denied. Failure to see that Paul had a special ministry, and the practice of trying to make his ministry fit that which is written concerning Israel and the earthly kingdom, blinds many eyes to God's purpose of evil. To some, evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. The only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus.

Great post from Harold's site! 

[jabcat]

Glad you thought so, Doc.  Bro Lovelace has some good teaching  .

God placed the Tree of Life in the garden.
God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.
God placed all the other trees in the garden.

Amen.  "For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God."   I Cor. 11:12

[preistsplace]

I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked,  "in my opinion".


Not a one of us in this thread thinks that evil can over power God.  We often argue that the logic of ET ultimatly shows evil can overpower God, but few in their mind actually believes evil is more powerful than God.

But thats not the issue really.   The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.

If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?

This is the area where Christians often think Atheists are in an unbelief in God but that is not true in many cases, they are often arguing that the assertions and phrases Christians promote God with are in fact contradictory to scripture.

Mypersonal beleife is that we have been subjected to vanity so that we can understand whatevil is and what its effects are. I submit that by our experience heresome of us have turned to God now and we are awaiting anend to this evil state. There areothers who as of yet have not realized the vanity of their exisitance, but when confronted by the absolute truth of God and His infinite love they will repent and accept God.

[sparrow]

 Do you know what I mean?

Yes, there can be no other way.

I totally agree.

[sparrow]

WAY GOOD post sis!   

I agree... Children are INNOCENT in their beginning, and then become participants in the KNOWLEDGE... It is also interesting that we "can't wait to grow up", and once firmly upon that "arrival"...  we begin to wish we were children again... 

Isn't that the truth?!
But how much more wonderful it will be when we go back to those childlike qualities yet now we are not as ignorant and know just how GOOD "GOOD" is and just how GOOD GOD is!!
It's tough, the journey to getting there... but the destination is absolutely worth it.
I think the yearning to go back home, and yes I think it is a journey BACK home (at least that is the way it feels in my heart  ), anyway..it's what keeps me going.

We are born (begin life here  ), and then... in that moment, take our first step in the "march" to our death. 

The further we, as a race move from the beginning INNOCENCE (Adam & Eve) which was COMPLETELY INNOCENT for Both were "born" DIRECTLY from the Hand of GOD... each step our Race has taken from there into the future, is a more DEGENERATIVE one, than the one before it...

Just as our BEGINNING is NEWLY ALIVE -- YOUNG, beautiful, innocent (blameless) and grows into strength... then life eventually deteriorates and grows into weakness, deceitfulness (blameable) and ugly... and in its END, becomes OLD and finally, DEAD.

Praise God, there is better to come for ALL... 

...willieH 

So true.

[peacemaker]

The Hand of Sovereignty and the hand of Self-determinism, do not convey the same intimate connection, as:

"His Spirit goes hand in hand with ours; one hand in the other, if we're walking in the cool of the day with him."

The former, implies a separation as is viewed in the minds of men. And the crusaders of these separate directions (i.e. camps, per se) have left the people in the swamps of blind behaviorism by subjectively removing, ignoring or explaining away His Attributes, as secondary or outside of His Sovereignty.

I see things as being more compatible without the fatalism of either side of the equation, given the thoughts and intents of the heart of men who eliminate aspects of His Sovereignty; or our choices.

We will make one choice or that of another in any given situation, especially, when confronted with alternatives.

"If I refuse to make a choice, I am still making a choice; the choice not to choose."

Which is not the opposite of making a choice, rather, the absence of making one.

It is impossible for man to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which they are attached; good and evil, without the Spirit of truth.

Therefore, let us remember to walk in the Spirit of the Day, it's ALL GOOD!

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked,  "in my opinion".


Not a one of us in this thread thinks that evil can over power God.  We often argue that the logic of ET ultimatly shows evil can overpower God, but few in their mind actually believes evil is more powerful than God.

But thats not the issue really.   The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.

If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?

This is the area where Christians often think Atheists are in an unbelief in God but that is not true in many cases, they are often arguing that the assertions and phrases Christians promote God with are in fact contradictory to scripture.

Mypersonal beleife is that we have been subjected to vanity so that we can understand whatevil is and what its effects are. I submit that by our experience heresome of us have turned to God now and we are awaiting anend to this evil state. There areothers who as of yet have not realized the vanity of their exisitance, but when confronted by the absolute truth of God and His infinite love they will repent and accept God.

Not disputing that,  the issue often is,   while we see that we have been subject to vanity and many turned to God that way, could have God caused us to learn without subjecting us to it.   After all as some say God is unlimited, so what limited him in having to do that?  His choice?   What kind of character are we to understand then to believe God chose to subject a human being to torture in a POW camp if he did not have to?

To say it was for a good purpose still does not solve the problem, if God is unlimited concerning our perception then no suffering was actually necessary.

If God created us to have to be taught that way, then if he is unlimited he could have created us to learn without experiencing pain and suffering so it does reflect on that character if that is true.

I submit, that we have to learn this way because there is one process of God expanding (creation to perfection) and we are smack in the middle of that process.   All the pain and suffering is real no matter how temporary it is and when we are one with God we will see that it was NEVER about Gods choices, it is about the only way it can possibly be.

So from OUR perspective that "appears" to be a limitation of God, but what has to be has nothing to do with limitations it is an assurance that "because" it's the only way, then there is NOTHING that can prevent us from being reconciled.

[WhiteWings]

Amos 3:6  ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13  .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16  Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16  .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17  O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6  Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 6:19  Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts...
Jeremiah 18:11  Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:  It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's.
But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job.
Do we think God does it differently today? Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....
Job 2:10  .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15  .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38  Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22  And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25  He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4  Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21  Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
1 Samuel 15:2-3  So says Jehovah of Hosts, ....  go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Samuel 12:11  Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
2 Thessalonians 2:11  and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

[Doc]

Great list, WW.