I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[pneuma]

Did God have to create evil in order to create evil in the minds of men?

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1: 5)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man (James 1:13)

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (Romans 1 18)

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities; His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became ...... (Romans 1:20-22)

Is cold the absence of heat?
Blindness the absence of sight?
Hate the absence of love?
Darkness the absence of Light?

"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."

To remain in the sea is opposite of standing on the shore; and many refuse, or are unable to climb the mountain.
God did not create evil as is perceived by man, but does cause adversity.  And a catastrophe, disaster, calamity,
or times of trouble are not evil in and of themselves.

peacemaker

[pneuma]

More food for thought.

Here is a little story

God created the heavens and the earth. Gen.1:1

The earth became without form and void.Gen.1:2

God did not create the earth without form; He created it to be inhabited. Is.45:18

So what happened to the earth that caused it to become without form?

Gods people were foolish, sottish children with no understanding and wise to do evil. Jer.4:22

And it was when God saw that His children had no understanding and were wise to do evil that He beheld the earth and it was without form and void and the heavens had no light.Jer.4:23

The earth represents Gods sottish children with no understanding who are wise to do evil.

God beheld His children who had become without form and void (vain and empty) and darkness was upon the deep wells of man.
And God said let there be light.Gen.1:3

What happens to darkness when someone turns on a light?

It cuts down the darkness. Is.45:7

And God divided the light from the darkness.Gen.1:5

So did God create darkness and evil?

No, God cuts down the darkness with light, and God cuts down the evil with good.Is.45:7

This all happened on the first day.Gen.1:5

Gen.3 explains how it all happened.

So as God said He did NOT create the earth without form Is.45:18, why do so many believe He did?

I know I said I was going to go away, but I seen my brother peacemaker who seems beleive along the same lines I do, and I did not want to leave a man behind all alone.

[Tim B]

I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil. Does this mean that God is doing the evil in man? Of course not! Did God plan, and allow for man to do evil? I would have to say: of course! Otherwise, God is not in control. And how does God not tempt? Well, He created the Devil. God made the Devil. So God is responsible for the Devil, but that doesn't mean He's committing the actions of the Devil. God uses the Devil as a part of his over all plan to bring all of creation back to Him.

So God Himself doesn't sin. But He did allow it to exist via man.

[WhiteWings]

While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did?  Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?

Paul,
Good thought but can't agree with it.
Replace "we" with "God" and you ask the correct question.
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
So couldn't He have made trees that don't feel when being pruned. Or trees that don't need to be pruned at all.
I think Jesus was/is that type of tree.

[pneuma]

Hi Tim, as I don't want to debate this all again please check out this link to see a good debate on this subject, some good thoughts on both sides.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0

That said, to give you a basic idea of what I believe I'll give a short answer to your questions

I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil.

I agree, it's called freewill

 

Did God plan, and allow for man to do evil? I would have to say: of course! Otherwise, God is not in control.

And I say no God did NOT plan for man to do evil, God planned against man doing evil, hence the commandment not to eat.

As to God being in control/His will being done, Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

Did Jesus teach us to pray a redundant prayer? I don't believe so.

Gods wills that none shall perish, YET all through scripture we read of people perishing. Thus showing Gods will is not YET being done.

So when will Gods will be done?

When the kingdoms of this earth become the kingdoms of Christ. It is than that we will see that death is swallowed up in victory, and all His will, will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.


 

And how does God not tempt? Well, He created the Devil. God made the Devil. So God is responsible for the Devil, but that doesn't mean He's committing the actions of the Devil.

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

So God Himself doesn't sin. But He did allow it to exist via man.

Tim if God created the devil after the fashion you believe He did, and set everything to play out as it has, using satan as a tool than when satan kills he is just the gun in the hands of God. So do you blame the gun for the murder or the one who used the gun?

[pneuma]

While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did?  Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?

Paul,
Good thought but can't agree with it.
Replace "we" with "God" and you ask the correct question.
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
So couldn't He have made trees that don't feel when being pruned. Or trees that don't need to be pruned at all.
I think Jesus was/is that type of tree.

Amen, Jesus is that type of tree,and God is a good tree and can only bring forth good fruit.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.

Sure there are things that are impossible with God.  It is impossible that God is evil.

Unless you want to disagree.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil.

In light of a limitless God there is no moral grounds for doing so.
So what would a limitless God who can do absolutely anything need to allow us to be capable of evil for?   

Some will say so that we can understand Good.  Well, then this limitless God could have created us with that understanding without us having to be capable of it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

God creating what we know to exist is why God is responsible, without doing so evil had no chance to exist.

This raises the point I have been trying to make in many threads over this.

Is it possible that God could have created us without any possibility of evil existing?


If so, then how does that not cause Gods loving character to be questionable?

paul all I'll say is it has to deal with the ages, sovereignty denotes kingship, and it is not until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of Christ will God will be done in the earth.

Not sure how that addresses whether God had a say in evils existance or not.

[Paul Hazelwood]

"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."

Of course, there are things that just are and cannot be changed.   Can a God with no limits (as our minds rationalize that) be forced to create opposites?   Why does a God with no limits then choose to create an existance where the only way we know good is to know evil if he could of gave us that understanding withour doing so.


It is because people misuse their own intellect in trying to understand God in the first place.

There are opposites, because that's how it is, not because there was a design concerning it.

We learn good by experiencing bad because there is no other way to be one with God.   It is how it is.

[Shadow]

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

That's beside the point as to Gods responsibility on the matter.

If you make a machine that indirectly hurts another are you free from liability if you knew that machine was going to do so and turned it on anyway?

[legoman]

Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.

I'm not sure no is the right answer.  Maybe it is.  I don't know.  But this is getting into the framework of logic (which I believe God created), and therefore can God do something illogical?

Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it?  No, I don't think so.
Could God have created a universe where 2+2=5?  I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.
Part of God's creation was bringing order out of chaos - part of this is making the universe logical.  I take this to mean that God is logical.
Logically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil.  Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.


Think about this one.  God is teaching us how to love.  Part of being loving is patience.  Is there anyway we could learn patience quickly?    Could we learn how to be patient without being patient?

Some things just have to be this way for a while, so we will learn.  Then God will clean up the mess!  But it is all part of God's plan, and I believe this is the best way it could have been done, because God chose this way.

[WhiteWings]

Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.

I'm not sure no is the right answer.  This is getting into the framework of logic (which I believe God created), and therefore can God do something illogical?

I agree legoman. I was just thinking of:
Matthew 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it?  No, I don't think so.

I asked that exact question a while ago. Some people where not thankful for it

Could God have created a universe where 2+2=5?  I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.

He could. It's just an agreement. Just like V+V=X
The spelling we use is also just an agreement. One that differs in many countries.

Part of God's creation was bringing order out of chaos - I take this to mean that God is logical.

Genesis states that just before 'the beginning' there was nothing.
Then God started creating. So He also created chaos. With reason? Fine. I can agree with that.

Logically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil.  Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.

Sorry but I totally disagree with that. For example it implies God didn't have a clue what evil is before He accidently created it. Yep accidently because He can't create what He doesn't know. And if it was accidently then He made a mistake.
Plus He wasn't wise enough to oversee the effects of His creating activities.
I'm not implying anything of the above. I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
The fact that we can't imagine to be good without knowing evil is so we need this lesson on earth is like assuming God has a simple brain like us. I just give Him credit that He could have done otherwise.
Why he choose the good/evil method. I have zero idea about that! But I do know that stating that it has to be this way is limiting Gods powers.

 

[legoman]

Could God have created a universe where 2+2=5?  I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.

He could. It's just an agreement. Just like V+V=X
The spelling we use is also just an agreement. One that differs in many countries.

But I'm not talking about the spelling or symbols.  I'm talking logic.  If I have 2 apples, and you give me 2 more apples, do I now have 5 apples?  No that's illogical.  Anyway I assume you know I what I mean.  No using funny base4 numbering systems either  (Man using Octal in university was annoying enough!)

Logically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil.  Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.

Sorry but I totally disagree with that. For example it implies God didn't have a clue what evil is before He accidently created it. Yep accidently because He can't create what He doesn't know. And if it was accidently then He made a mistake.
Plus He wasn't wise enough to oversee the effects of His creating activities.
I'm not implying anything of the above. I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
The fact that we can't imagine to be good without knowing evil is so we need this lesson on earth is like assuming God has a simple brain like us. I just give Him credit that He could have done otherwise.
Why he choose the good/evil method. I have zero idea about that! But I do know that stating that it has to be this way is limiting Gods powers.

 

Lost me here WW.  Just because He could have done it a different way, doesn't mean it would have been the best way.  Like I suppose he could have made a universe where 2+2=5, but it probably wouldn't have worked quite as well as this one!  Is it limiting God because He "had" to create the universe where 2+2=4?  I don't think so.  He's just logical.

Anyway if you assume God wanted us to know what good is and how to love, you have to have something to compare that it against so you can understand it.

JHMO.

[legoman]

I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.

This is the key point I think.  This is exactly what God is doing!  We start out impure, and are being made pure.  From our perspective it just seems to be taking a heck of a long time!   

But I'm sure once we are all in his presence this lifetime of 60-80+ years will seem like a vapor.

[WhiteWings]

Could God have created a universe where 2+2=5?  I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.

He could. It's just an agreement. Just like V+V=X
The spelling we use is also just an agreement. One that differs in many countries.

But I'm not talking about the spelling or symbols.  I'm talking logic.  If I have 2 apples, and you give me 2 more apples, do I now have 5 apples?  No that's illogical.  Anyway I assume you know I what I mean.  No using funny base4 numbering systems either  (Man using Octal in university was annoying enough!)

I think 2+2=10 in base 4...   (Octal question 76^2 is?  )
But seriously now. I was not trying to make a funny suggestion about base 4.
It loooks funny because you have learned otherwise.
We could have called a car "wert". But we agreed we call it "car"

Logically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil.  Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.

Sorry but I totally disagree with that. For example it implies God didn't have a clue what evil is before He accidently created it. Yep accidently because He can't create what He doesn't know. And if it was accidently then He made a mistake.
Plus He wasn't wise enough to oversee the effects of His creating activities.
I'm not implying anything of the above. I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
The fact that we can't imagine to be good without knowing evil is so we need this lesson on earth is like assuming God has a simple brain like us. I just give Him credit that He could have done otherwise.
Why he choose the good/evil method. I have zero idea about that! But I do know that stating that it has to be this way is limiting Gods powers.

 

Lost me here WW.  Just because He could have done it a different way, doesn't mean it would have been the best way.  Like I suppose he could have made a universe where 2+2=5, but it probably wouldn't have worked quite as well as this one!  Is it limiting God because He "had" to create the universe where 2+2=4?  I don't think so.  He's just logical.

No lego you haven't lost me. You seem to perfectly understand what I mean. We just draw different conclusions from the
facts.
I wrote facts in italics because I'm not so sure we know the facts to begin with. We might misunderstand the Bible.
And not every shred of knowledge of God is written down in the Bible.
So we are both just drawing conclusions from incompled, skewed and polluted datasets.
Fat tails on that bell curve <grin>

Anyway if you assume God wanted us to know what good is and how to love, you have to have something to compare that it against so you can understand it.

JHMO.

Guess what I don't agree. But neither am I claiming I'm right. Right now my version seems the best to me.
Gimme 10 verses and maybe I've changed my mind completely after that. You know... larger data set 

[legoman]

No problem WW, we will just disagree happily!  To be honest it doesn't all make sense to me as well.  Its just my best understanding.

Yes 2+2 = 10 in base 4... there is no 5 (I was grasping for an example)!  Hm maybe 6+7=15 in Octal... 

But you get what I mean about 2+2?  It doesn't matter what we call it car/bus/wert/good/bad/#2/Roman Numeral II.

If I have 2 things, and I get another 2 things, I must have 4 things.  There is no other way I can imagine it.

For God it is possible He could have done it another way I suppose.  But it might not be the best way.  Should God have picked a different way if it didn't mean so many people would be murdered and killed in wars?  Maybe, but it might not have been the best way.

So should God do things the best way or the nicest way?  Or perhaps in the end the best way is the nicest way (we just don't see it yet).

Peace my friend.

[jabcat]

Just because I (or the KJV) call something by a certain term doesn't necessarily make it so.  Since the "freewill" ("voluntary" as termed in the CLT) issue won't be DIRECTLY debated on the forums any longer, I would refer any interested readers to this link for some Biblically based information.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

If I believe one major precept that is not scripturally accurate, then I will probably look for all kinds of ways to make my theology fit those beliefs.  I've done it and unfortunately, still do.  I really think we all ought to be aware of that...the rationalizations we make to prove our points.  If there was a little emoticon of a little guy raising his hand, I'd use it right here  .

The Spirit will lead us into the truth, but based upon my experiences and everyone I know, it's apparently not instantly complete.  Just read again where Paul had the dude circumcised  .  Then, as we know, he later vehemently preached against it!  I believe Martin has discussed "progressive revelation".  The old saying, we live and learn (are taught) .

(Just for the record, I believe we are accountable to, and required by God, to make choices - from a list of options He sets before us - part of the process from which we learn and grow into His grace and knowledge.  I do believe however, that He is in charge of that process, shaping me more into His will, developing my will to be more in line with His.  [He didn't hope for something else but was unable to pull it off].  I'm (as are we all) a work in progress.  Thank God for His mercy. 

[pneuma]

I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil.

In light of a limitless God there is no moral grounds for doing so.
So what would a limitless God who can do absolutely anything need to allow us to be capable of evil for?   

Some will say so that we can understand Good.  Well, then this limitless God could have created us with that understanding without us having to be capable of it.

Hi Paul, I agree, God did not make us sin so we could know repentance, God did not make us evil so we could know good, we did not have to know hate to understand Love, Those are just mans thoughts because they cannot understand why we are in the mess we are in. Jesus knew good and evil but never had to enter into sin to know good and evil, Jesus knew love without knowing hate, people say ya but He is Jesus, and I say so what it proves we can know good and evil without entering into sin.

The way I see it is in order for God to make us into His image and likeness He had to give us freewill because He (God) has freewill. Without the equation of freewill man could not be made in His image and likeness. Now God is responsible for giving man freewill but He is not responsible for what man did with their freewill. For if God is responsible for what man did with his freewill than there is no freewill and we can than never be made into Gods image and likeness.

[pneuma]

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?

Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.

[pneuma]

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

That's beside the point as to Gods responsibility on the matter.

If you make a machine that indirectly hurts another are you free from liability if you knew that machine was going to do so and turned it on anyway?

God did not make us a puppet, a machine does not have freewill, if we were made a puppet then yes God would be responsible, but were not puppets

[Paul Hazelwood]

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

That's beside the point as to Gods responsibility on the matter.

If you make a machine that indirectly hurts another are you free from liability if you knew that machine was going to do so and turned it on anyway?

God did not make us a puppet, a machine does not have freewill, if we were made a puppet then yes God would be responsible, but were not puppets

Free will is something we agree on, but free will in and of itself doesn't get God off the hook.   

If you created a machine with free will knowing that with it's free will it would kill main torture and commit evil your either responsible for letting it loose, or you are not.


Sio since God did let the machine and it's free will loose and God is still righteous, then there is more to it.

[WhiteWings]

So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.

But He created mankind with the ability to sin. He also knew that ability would cause sin.
So why did He do that?
a] Just a flawed design.
b] It was/is part of some plan.

My point/questions is:
If God created something that He knew would sin, and with His unlimited power could have created differently, didn't He choose to create evil by embedding it in His design.

[pneuma]

Hi Paul and WW, maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.