I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[pneuma]

Hi Clay after a certain manner I can agree that God created the conditions that allowed satan to plant the tares, but I am not allowed to speak of that condition on tents, so you will have to read between the lines.

Well I guess it depends on the manner in which one uses circular reasoning. Everything comes out from God and everything ends back with God. I have no problem with that circular reasoning.

But here is a thought for you.

Does everything that came out from God return to God in the same fashion it came out from Him? And does everything stay in the same fashion it did when it came out from Him?

[claypot]

Hi Clay after a certain manner I can agree that God created the conditions that allowed satan to plant the tares, but I am not allowed to speak of that condition on tents, so you will have to read between the lines.

Well I guess it depends on the manner in which one uses circular reasoning. Everything comes out from God and everything ends back with God. I have no problem with that circular reasoning.

But here is a thought for you.

Does everything that came out from God return to God in the same fashion it came out from Him? And does everything stay in the same fashion it did when it came out from Him?

You say you may be able to agree that God created the conditions that allowed satan to plant the tares…………………………..

I ask you if God created the conditions that allowed satan to even exist?

I hear ya on reading between the lines and I think even that avenue is created by God created conditions. A choice is manufactured out of already existing conditions and input.

I don't believe everything ends up back with God in the same fashion as it started out. It ends up much better in every way otherwise what is the purpose of it all?

I think everything becomes the fashion it was intended by God to become in and during its journey back to God.

cp

[sparrow]

I think everything becomes the fashion it was intended by God to become in and during its journey back to God.

cp

Amen, bro.

[peacemaker]

  Brother Willie

If it all it took for us to KNOW "Good & Evil" would've been GOD "telling us"... then why did He put us through all this PM? 

Choice?

I do not question His method... which has INFORMED us of EVIL as opposed to GOOD, via an ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with BOTH... 

Of course not, no child questions his parent(s)?

Man made the decision to EXPERIENCE this realm, although they were given the KNOWLEDGE from the ONE who had the KNOWLEDGE in the beginning. Now, we live within it? However, He has PURPOSED by HIS GOOD PLEASURE (an intended or desired result) to bring us through it, never leaving or FORSAKING US!

For instance, I can tell my child that SMOKING is not good for him and show him TONS of information to support what I "SAY"... However, oftentimes we find instruction of the abstaination of EVIL, cannot be KNOWN until it is EXPERIENCED... and/or WITNESSED.  If GOD said that it was not GOOD to murder someone, and NO ONE was ever "murdered" -- How would you KNOW this to be TRUE?

You would not, if you doubted his word from the beginning. But would you cause your children to murder that of another, just for the EXPERIENCE? What a sadistic thought, so as a man thinks?

"The right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

Thank God for His Attributes, as:

"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."

Willie, you express many things which are true, but like everyone we at times FORGET the CHARACTERISTICS of OUR CREATOR.

I worked and served for a time in a homeless shelter.  Try it sometime, it is quite enlightening, and serves not only to prompt THANKSGIVING to God, in ones own experience, but also reveals the GREAT RICHES you have in just having simple needs met, ...needs that are NOT met in MANY, MANY others.

Perhaps, we served along side one another, as my daughters and I served others for the meals we in return received while eating at a food kitchen for almost two years. There were those that would hand me a small and large food box saying, "Which of these is to much, and which is not enough? How would you respond to this?

"Neither is enough, nor to much in and of themselves!"

Both His Sovereignty and our choices, go hand in hand as He PROVIDES for our every need. My first date with my present wife was to invite her to dinner, "it was free, yet provided for." Something to think about!

peacemaker



... food for thought, not in a box

[bobf]

Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.

But apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form". 

1) to create, shape, form
...a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
......1) of heaven and earth
......2) of individual man
......3) of new conditions and circumstances
......4) of transformations
...b) (Niphal) to be created
......1) of heaven and earth
......2) of birth
......3) of something new
......4) of miracles
...c) (Piel)
......1) to cut down
......2) to cut out
2) to be fat
...a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Also at the end of the Isaiah 45:7 there is a summation "I the LORD do all these things".  The word translated "do" is the same word translated "make" in "I make peace" in the same verse.  It's primary meaning is given as "to do, fashion, accomplish, make" and is used for example in these verses from Genesis.

And God made the firmament
And God made two great lights...
And God made the beast of the earth...
And God said, let us make man in our image...
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made...
It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him...

My explanation of "love worketh no evil" is simply to look at examples in scriptures where God does indeed cause "bad stuff" to happen to people for some greater good.  For example, God took away Neb.'s kingdom and gave him the mind of a beast for a long time.  That would fall under the heading of evil from Neb's viewpoint but God was not working evil towards Neb because all was done out of love for his ultimate benefit.  Same with Jonah.  Getting tossed into the sea and being swallowed by a fish and on the brink of death (or dead) is again evil from Jonah's viewpoint but in the bigger picture God was working good towards both Jonah and Nineveh.

Sometimes I think examples in scripture are more compelling than doctrinal statements in scripture.

[pneuma]

But apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".

Hi Bob, from what I looked up on the net it seems some scholars would agree with that because they cannot understand how "cut down" can create anything, but Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.

IMO Bernhardt is correct because when I look at the scriptures using bara I can see that God creates by cutting down/cutting out.
We know God creates by His word, His word is a double-edged sword cutting or dividing.

When God creates/bara in us a clean heart how does He do it?

Is it not by CUTTING away the foreskin.

When God created/bara the heavens and the earth how did He do it?

Was it not by cutting down the darkness by creating light.

Thus I stand by my translation I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[pneuma]

I think everything becomes the fashion it was intended by God to become.................

I agree with this part of your statement bro.

[pneuma]

I ask you if God created the conditions that allowed satan to even exist?

Same answers clay, read between the lines.

[bobf]

But apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".

Hi Bob, from what I looked up on the net it seems some scholars would agree with that because they cannot understand how "cut down" can create anything, but Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.

IMO Bernhardt is correct because when I look at the scriptures using bara I can see that God creates by cutting down/cutting out.
We know God creates by His word, His word is a double-edged sword cutting or dividing.

When God creates/bara in us a clean heart how does He do it?

Is it not by CUTTING away the foreskin.

When God created/bara the heavens and the earth how did He do it?

Was it not by cutting down the darkness by creating light.

Thus I stand by my translation I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ok Scott... I'm certainly no scholar of hebrew... just saw that in Strongs thought I should point it out.  What do you make of God's judgments in relation to God creating evil.  I don't mean moral evil, I mean God causing bad stuff to happen to people as a judgment.  Verses like this one.

• Jeremiah 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

Don't you think "pluck up, break down, destroy" involves God creating evil?

[Cardinal]

But apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".

Hi Bob, from what I looked up on the net it seems some scholars would agree with that because they cannot understand how "cut down" can create anything, but Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.

IMO Bernhardt is correct because when I look at the scriptures using bara I can see that God creates by cutting down/cutting out.
We know God creates by His word, His word is a double-edged sword cutting or dividing.

When God creates/bara in us a clean heart how does He do it?

Is it not by CUTTING away the foreskin.

When God created/bara the heavens and the earth how did He do it?

Was it not by cutting down the darkness by creating light.

Thus I stand by my translation I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  Pneuma, when I read your post what came into my mind was that Gideon was a FELLER of trees, ie. to cut down.

Trees can spiritually mean, things that have been planted in us, allowed to take root, grown up to produce fruit, and also were around the idolatrous altars (they committed idolatry in the GROVES) which represent our hearts before turning to Him.

Once we turn to Him the other "mighty man of valor" (Gideon called this) begins to fell the "trees" in our heart that keep the Tree of Life from being seen in our midst.

But the other point with this I wanted to make, is that the rain falls on the just and the  unjust and the rain that fell on all these trees, came from the same source. Just my thoughts...... Blessings....

[willieH]

Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

cp

What about this Pman?

So good to converse with you again Brother.

cp

It seems circular to you brother because of the way you are seeing things right now, but God runs along the strait road not the twisted road. Jesus met Paul on straight street not twisted ave.

Something "CIRCULAR" is NOT "TWISTED" in any way.

...willieH 

[jabcat]

What do you make of God's judgments in relation to God creating evil.  I don't mean moral evil, I mean God causing bad stuff to happen to people as a judgment.  Verses like this one.

• Jeremiah 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

Don't you think "pluck up, break down, destroy" involves God creating evil?

   Good point Bob.  I hear you pointing out that if we want to try to relieve God of the responsibility that He says He takes,  at a basic level, "so in the very least...what about the judgment aspect"....    IMO, some verses just can't be "re-worked" and/or explained away.

Amos 3:6

NIV
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If a ram's horn sounds an alarm in a city, won't the people be alarmed? If there is a disaster in a city, hasn't the LORD done it?

King James Bible
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

American King James Version
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?

American Standard Version
Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? shall evil befall a city, and Jehovah hath not done it?

Bible in Basic English
If the horn is sounded in the town will the people not be full of fear? will evil come on a town if the Lord has not done it?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Shall the trumpet sound in a city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?

Darby Bible Translation
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and Jehovah not have done it?

English Revised Version
Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? shalt evil befall a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Webster's Bible Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?

Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PM...
 

For instance, I can tell my child that SMOKING is not good for him and show him TONS of information to support what I "SAY"... However, oftentimes we find instruction of the abstaination of EVIL, cannot be KNOWN until it is EXPERIENCED... and/or WITNESSED.  If GOD said that it was not GOOD to murder someone, and NO ONE was ever "murdered" -- How would you KNOW this to be TRUE?

You would not, if you doubted his word from the beginning. But would you cause your children to murder that of another, just for the EXPERIENCE? What a sadistic thought, so as a man thinks?

"The right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

"Murder" was decided to be what it actually IS, by GOD, who decided the existence of ALL THINGS... Also, it occurs within HIS Creation, yet He does NOTHING to stop it from occuring.  WHY?  Because it is ORDAINED to be so as part of the process of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, which is the WORD of GOD, which notes MURDER took place within this realm (as part of the illustration of G & E).

It is WRITTEN (in the WORD) that Cain murdered Abel.  Could this have been otherwise?  I think NOT!  For if it could have been otherwise, it would have been otherwise!  That this account appears in the WORD means that this account comes from an UNCHANGING SOURCE... which not only PRECEEDED the choice... but had already taken it into account BEFORE it occured (CHRIST was slain from the foundation of the world)

The "ill choice" of Cain, did not DICTATE to GOD what His WORD would SAY... the OPPOSITE is true.  The CLAY does not dictate to the POTTER, "I want to be a bowl, not a vase"... The POTTER decides what the CLAY shall be, through the ENTIRETY of its Creation -- Jer 18:4 -- which includes both the Positive and Negative aspects of that "creation".

CAIN made a choice which was made according to the WORD which "WORD" did NOT require "his choice" in order to BE...

GOD's WORD ...IS... the SAME "YESTERDAY" [before Cain's choices were made] "TODAY" [during the life and "choices" of Cain] and "FOREVER" [the choices of Cain shall never disappear from being known, but always serve to MAGNIFY the Glory of his  deliverance FROM them!]

As CHRIST said:  Heaven and Earth shall PASS AWAY, but MY WORDS shall NEVER PASS AWAY...

Within the WORD of GOD is the complete History of each Human being that ever lived... Just because we do not have it WRITTEN on paper, and in our possession does not mean that they are not NOTED in the WORD of GOD.   The BOOKS of our LIVES were all KNOWN, DECLARED and therefore "prophesied" from "end to the beginning" -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- well before a moment took place.

Thank God for His Attributes, as:

"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."

Willie, you express many things which are true, but like everyone we at times FORGET the CHARACTERISTICS of OUR CREATOR.

I try as best I can, not to "forget" the characteristics of our Creator brother... But I am able to note that HIS KNOWLEDGE of ALL THINGS is that which provides SOURCE for ALL THINGS... and ALL THINGS are WORKED by HIM, and for HIM... 

The sorrows in the Revelation of the OPPOSITE of His Character, are that which we are experiencing in this realm of TIME... and are beneficial in ENLARGING the JOY of the experience of His Character, which JOY shall last FOREVER...

As a man, ...I have parented 3 children and am involved in the upbringing of 10 grandchildren.  ALL 13 have had to learn many things which I, which proceeded them, KNEW and taught or warned them of... some of those things they responded to obediently and benefited by that obedience... but some they did not HEAR, and suffered accordingly... yet even then, gained from those varying negative experiences, and in their process -- are shunning those unacceptable or unprofitable behaviors, enhancing their prosperity in various given areas.

I worked and served for a time in a homeless shelter.  Try it sometime, it is quite enlightening, and serves not only to prompt THANKSGIVING to God, in ones own experience, but also reveals the GREAT RICHES you have in just having simple needs met, ...needs that are NOT met in MANY, MANY others.

Perhaps, we served along side one another, as my daughters and I served others for the meals we in return received while eating at a food kitchen for almost two years. There were those that would hand me a small and large food box saying, "Which of these is to much, and which is not enough? How would you respond to this?

"Neither is enough, nor to much in and of themselves!"

I salute your service brother!     I had the priviledge of serving with my wife, son and daughter in this endeavor...

   I'm not sure I totally understand what you are asking, but I would say that a child or small person would certainly not require what a 6 foot 5", 250 pound man would require.   

Both His Sovereignty and our choices, go hand in hand as He PROVIDES for our every need. My first date with my present wife was to invite her to dinner, "it was free, yet provided for." Something to think about!

Within HIS SOVEREIGNTY are found "our choices" bro...  We are here to learn that it is NOT about us... it is about HIM... (all things are by Him, and ...FOR HIM)

When we discover this, then we can truly observe ourselves as emergent completely from HIM... and ALL that occurs in our individual experience is BENEFICIAL to ALL, because IT ALL emerges from Him... including the sum of our (individual) "choices"...

... food for thought, not in a box

back-atcha bro:

... food for thought, not in a box

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...

Upon what verse of Scripture do you base the idea that "GOD -- DID -- what He DID NOT WANT TO DO? ...as stated here:

Yes God did that which He did not want to do,

Sorry Scott, this appears quite awry to me bro...

:omg:  How can you say that GOD ...DID... something "He DID NOT want to do"?   That is a statement of LACK of SELF CONTROL... For in essence, "we [as sinners] are strangled by the same rope!" -- as the Apostle Paul noted in his experience:  Rom 8:15 (which -- I can't speak for you, but -- I can relate to!   This is (though I sure you do not intend it to be) "HUMANIZING" God, bro...


...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... 

I could've sworn I answered this post!  -- Oh well, so goes a 64 year old mind! 

No brother you have not given me any scripture that says it is Gods pleasure for us to sin.

All you have is given me your understanding of some scriptures that I see differently than you but what I see shows forth Gods nature. What you see shows forth God and satans nature mixed together.

ALL THINGS emerge from Him Scott... whether we choose to believe it or not... Col 1:16-20 -- All "natures" you or I can percieve, are emergent from HIM.  "satan" however you view this term (I believe it to be a principality of adversity which is in the Carnal/Natural man)... is STILL emergent from His hand.

Willie everything is NOT YET done according to God will.

This is a TIME confined, linear statement, bro.  God is NOT confined by TIME, and IN HIM all things are COMPLETE.

It is NOT GODS WILL that any should PERISH, yet people PERISH all through scripture. Yet your belief makes people perishing God's will.

Sorry bro I believe the scriptures.

Scott, the Scriptures SAY:  "...it is APPOINTED unto man once to DIE, but after this, the judgment" -- Heb 9:27

Who "APPOINTED" this "DEATH" Scott?  Does this "appointment" proceed from OUTSIDE the WILL of God?  If so, WHO established this "appointment"?  And how did they GET AWAY with making this "appointment" against His WILL?  And then "snuck" it into His WORD?

GOD's "WILL" about "not perishing" is about ETERNITY which is a  resultant of REPENTENCE, not about this realm, ...in which DEATH is APPOINTED as the result of TRANSGRESSION.

Willie, unlike you saying God works sin as part of His pleasure or will without scriptural backing that ACTUALLY states such I do have scripture that states God did not want to sacrifice His son.

Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Desire/PLEASURE—God has PLEASURE in mercy NOT SACRIFICE.

Scott, I do not say that GOD takes PLEASURE in SIN, I say He takes PLEASURE in the COMPLETION of the process, which INCLUDES SIN... and redemption from it.

GOD is ALMIGHTY bro... so the "sacrifice" of CHRIST, could have been avoided if HE so chose to avoid it.  He DID NOT! 

Matter of fact... it was ALREADY a "DONE DEAL" before ANYTHING in Creation was even "Created" -- Rev 13:8

Not only THAT, but when CHRIST was amidst this realm, and ON the pathway to that SACRIFICE... when GOD said:  "Thou art My beloved SON, in whom I am WELL PLEASED" -- Luke 3:22 -- Matt 17:5   

Seems to me, the words (WELL) PLEASED is a variation of the word PLEASURE and vice versa...

GOD is herein displaying and vocalizing PLEASURE in His SON who is on the pathway of SACRIFICE... 

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Desire/PLEASURE- God had NO PLEASURE in sacrifice and offerings.

First you tell me that "GOD DID what He DID NOT ...WANT to DO" ...now THIS!

Scott, this is very surface... If GOD had no pleasure in Sacrifice and offerings, they would not be REQUIRED of men... It would be GOD bringing upon Himself,  "DISPLEASURE" by requiring man to OFFER and SACRIFICE! 

Do you deny that OFFERING and SACRIFICE is GOD instructed and required in His WORD?

Therefore, it is possible that your observation of Psalm 40:6 could be slightly inaccurate?

Since you think OFFERING and SACRIFICE is so DISPLEASING and/or UNPLEASUREABLE to GOD...

Was CHRIST's sacrifice, therefore according to Psalm 40:6 -- "DISPLEASING" to GOD, Scott? 

I think you have isolated your thoughts, and picked a verse which supports them, and are thereby blinded to the overall PREMISE of Sacrifice and offering...

In the NT -- the Apostle Paul notes:

Rom 12:1 -- I ...BESEECH... you therefor brethren by the mercies of GOD, that ye present your bodies a -- LIVING SACRIFICE -- HOLY -- ACCEPTABLE -- unto GOD, which is your REASONABLE Service!

It is our REASONABLE SERVICE to cause God DISPLEASURE by this "living" SACRIFICE? 

According to your thinking brother Scott... this "LIVING SACRIFICE" is DISPLEASING to GOD, even though HE orders it to be so, and WITHIN that "ordering" calls it HOLY and ACCEPTABLE!   

No my dear bro... (IMO) you have gathered an "understanding" of SACRIFICE and OFFERING, which you esteem to be a bit greater than it really is...

I know I have a lot to learn brother, you keep telling me that I do every time we speak to one another, but did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe it is you that is in need of learning.

Scott, I am and ALWAYS will be, in need of learning!    If I were not, I would be stagnant.  I presume you are the same bro... I don't mean to belittle you in any way, just suggest that there is always room for improvement of our insights.

Matter of fact when it gets down to the "nitty gritty", ...since I found the truth of the SALVATION of ALL MEN (which is one REAL big "learning") 9 years ago, ...I have since learned and have come to observe differently, MANY new things (to mention just a few -- some of which YOU as well as many others here @ Tentmaker by GOD's hand, have contributed to) such as concerning the truth or fallacy of: 

1.   "HELL"
2.   "Fallen angels"
3.   The SABBATH
4.   Free will
5.   The "Millennium"
6.   "Spiritual" Israel
7.   Eternal "separation" from God
8.   "Decision" for CHRIST
9.   "Accepting" CHRIST
10. "Going" to Heaven
11. The FALLACY of "satan"
12. The FALLACY of Easter
13. Revelation of JESUS CHRIST
14. The ETERNAL state of the WORD
15. TIME as an opposition to ETERNITY
16. The FOREKNOWLEDGE of God
17. The FALLACY of the use of the word ETERNAL (in attachment to FINITES)

I have indeed LEARNED and continue to do so.  And really, I am thankful for our discussions, and find respect for you as well. 

I think we both seem to convey an unmoveable position bro... But, then again... that is my perception, which is based only upon our interactions. 

You could well be "in flux" in the areas of learning, which I cannot observe.  It is not my job to deduce you, only to present my beliefs, which are in process... and word them as best I can... without any desire that my observations change you... only to hope that should they in fact contain truth, that GOD may use them in helping others, and maintaining faith in those observations as I continue to search...

By the way, one more "reminder"...  are you going to provide me the Scripture which SUPPORTS your statement: "GOD DID what He DID NOT want to DO"?   

...willieH 

[Seth]

I came across an Old Testament example that perfectly illustrates the fact that people have choices, but that man has a choice is not evidence in itself to suggest that God's invisible hand is not still the foundation of those choices.

Observe:
 
1 Kings 12:1-19
Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all the Israelites had gone there to make him king. When Jeroboam son of Nebat heard this (he was still in Egypt, where he had fled from King Solomon), he returned from Egypt. So they sent for Jeroboam, and he and the whole assembly of Israel went to Rehoboam and said to him: "Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but now lighten the harsh labor and the heavy yoke he put on us, and we will serve you."

Rehoboam answered, "Go away for three days and then come back to me." So the people went away.

Then King Rehoboam consulted the elders who had served his father Solomon during his lifetime. "How would you advise me to answer these people?" he asked. They replied, "If today you will be a servant to these people and serve them and give them a favorable answer, they will always be your servants."

But Rehoboam rejected the advice the elders gave him and consulted the young men who had grown up with him and were serving him. He asked them, "What is your advice? How should we answer these people who say to me, 'Lighten the yoke your father put on us'?"

The young men who had grown up with him replied, "Tell these people who have said to you, 'Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but make our yoke lighter'-tell them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's waist. My father laid on you a heavy yoke; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions.' "

Three days later Jeroboam and all the people returned to Rehoboam, as the king had said, "Come back to me in three days." The king answered the people harshly. (Here Rehoboam makes his choice): Rejecting the advice given him by the elders, he followed the advice of the young men and said, "My father made your yoke heavy; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions." So the king did not listen to the people, for this turn of events was from the LORD, TO FULFIL the word the LORD had spoken to Jeroboam son of Nebat through Ahijah the Shilonite.

When all Israel saw that the king refused to listen to them, they answered the king:
       "What share do we have in David,
       what part in Jesse's son?
       To your tents, O Israel!
       Look after your own house, O David!"
      So the Israelites went home. But as for the Israelites who were living in the towns of Judah, Rehoboam still ruled over them.

King Rehoboam sent out Adoniram, who was in charge of forced labor, but all Israel stoned him to death. King Rehoboam, however, managed to get into his chariot and escape to Jerusalem. So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

-------

VEDDY VEDDY INTERESTING.

Rehoboam's choice: follow the elders or follow the younger men. He chose the advice of the younger men. He THOUGHT that would work, because he wanted to be king. However, the invisible hand of God was working because God had already declared to Jereboam some chapters back, that Rehoboam would NOT be the king. It just so happens that the operator of that fulfillment would come about through a very unwise choice by the very man God said would not be king.

It just shows me that the existence of choice is not proper evidence to show that the invisible hand of God is not working in the choices, and it shows that nobody can tell when that invisible hand is working in their own choices either. JMHO

[Cardinal]

  Amen Seth.....indeed no one can tell when the invisible hand of God is working, unless He reveals His hand to you. Blessings.....

[Seth]

Exactly Cardinal. Hey that's another agreement!   

I thought it would be helpful to post the prophecy from which Rehoboam's influenced choice sprang:

1 Kings 11:9-13
The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."

I think it is amazing with a Divine sense of irony that it was through that son's choices that the kingdom would be taken away BY God.

[legoman]

I said that ALL that occurs is DONE of HIS WILL and it is HIS PLEASURE to immerse us in the OPPOSITE of Himself (Hardening/concluding in UNBELIEF), and to REMOVE us FROM IT (Mercy/Grace/redemption)... BOTH of which are done at HIS HAND.

Really good posts willie, but your sentence above is mindblowing!     At first we are immersed in evil, and slowly God is revealed to us (piece by piece) until there is no evil left and we are only immersed in God!

[Cardinal]

  Amen Willie, good posts and I agree that is one loaded with life statement above........Blessings.....

[Cardinal]

Exactly Cardinal. Hey that's another agreement!   

  Amen Seth.......that's cause we're related by blood.......

[sheila]

  Amen! Seth,Cardinal,Willie....very good posts!

  He kills[the man of sin/vessel of dishonour]

   and makes alive [the vessel of honour/mercy]

   In each of us as He see's fit for His own purpose.

                       Sheila

[willieH]

Hey Pneuma, I have the exact same problem when typing out replies here. After a few sentences the jump all over the place. What I do is hit quote and when the text appears in this post reply box I copy all of it and paste it in Word and then write out my message and then copy it all from Word back to this reply box and then it all comes out right.

I thought it was my computer but if it is happening to you too then........???


cp

I just saw this cp... I had the same trouble, and I think it has to do with an "Internet Explorer" update.

If you have updated to "Internet Explorer 8"... THAT, I think is the problem...

My wife "UNDID" the "install" on it, and things went back to normal... so I think there is a glitch in this "updated version of Internet Explorer"  Hope that helps!

...willieH 

[pneuma]

Hi Willie, I have been over all your point already with others in this thread and the potter and his clay thread.

And I cannot defend what I believe because of the taboo placed upon this board, while you and everyone else can post away about God sovereignty at will. The cards are all stacked against me here brother in this regard.

Thus, it would be foolish of me to continue to debate something when I can only use PART of the scriptures and not all of them. It would be like fighting with one arm tied behind my back.

It like this brother say I had a board and I said to you, you cannot talk about God sovereignty because it upsets me and others on the board.

How would you explain God sovereignty if you cannot talk about His sovereignty, do you think it would be a fair debate?

Now don't go reading into my sovereignty example as though I don't believe in Gods sovereignty because I do, I just understand if differently than most do.

Therefore, I will bow out of any further discussions here at tents as there is not the liberty that at one time this board had.

2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Now I am not saying no one here has the Spirit of the Lord (please don't read that into my statement) I am just saying I don't have the liberty to post what the Spirit of the Lord gives me.

God bless each and every one of you.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PM... 

Do good and evil, like heaven and hell, still indoctrinate the hearts of men?

The two edged sword of good and evil has varying implications, generally well-adapted for cutting; unmercifully:

"Thin cutting edges without a fine point?"

Whereas, His Word is an instrument that is sharper than any sword; quick and to the point, piercing deep within the heart of the matter.

"For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and SHARPER THAN ANY TWO-EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

Let us be acute in spirit, sensitive to his engrafted word for we are not really learning; just remembering.

Creation is everything that's within, and true power is tempered with love.

peacemaker

  -- I especially liked the "remembering" comment, and completely AGREE with it! 

...willieH