I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[claypot]

Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

cp

[claypot]

Hey Pneuma, I have the exact same problem when typing out replies here. After a few sentences the jump all over the place. What I do is hit quote and when the text appears in this post reply box I copy all of it and paste it in Word and then write out my message and then copy it all from Word back to this reply box and then it all comes out right.

I thought it was my computer but if it is happening to you too then........???


cp

[claypot]

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?

Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?

Unless these weapons formed were made in such a way as to not prevail against us forever. They may have been made for a finite purpose. The serpent was allowed into the garden but I don't think 'he' was meant to last forever.

cp

[pneuma]

ya something is buggy with this forum

[pneuma]

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?

Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?

Unless these weapons formed were made in such a way as to not prevail against us forever. They may have been made for a finite purpose. The serpent was allowed into the garden but I don't think 'he' was meant to last forever.

cp

but than you are reading more into the scripture than it actually says.
For myself when reading the OT I beleive the septugent to be more accurate than the rest of the translation, Jesus used it, Peter and the boys used it, and if it was good enough for them, its good enough for me.

[claypot]

Pneuma, you wrote.......

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Where did disobedience originate from? Who or what made us able to disobey. Who or what created the circumstances and influences (serpent in garden) that led to us disobeying?

I agree WE disobeyed, thus the hardening but I am curious..............

cp

[claypot]

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?

Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?

Unless these weapons formed were made in such a way as to not prevail against us forever. They may have been made for a finite purpose. The serpent was allowed into the garden but I don't think 'he' was meant to last forever.

cp

but than you are reading more into the scripture than it actually says.
For myself when reading the OT I beleive the septugent to be more accurate than the rest of the translation, Jesus used it, Peter and the boys used it, and if it was good enough for them, its good enough for me.

I am only trying to read the spirit of what is being communicated.

cp

[claypot]

Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

cp

What about this Pman?

So good to converse with you again Brother.

cp

[pneuma]

Pneuma, you wrote.......

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Where did disobedience originate from? Who or what made us able to disobey. Who or what created the circumstances and influences (serpent in garden) that led to us disobeying?

I agree WE disobeyed, thus the hardening but I am curious..............

cp

well according to scripture sin is of the devil brother, so unless God and the devil are in concord with one another, which is contrary to scripture I don't see how people can say God planned out mans disobedience and sin.

[pneuma]

Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

cp

What about this Pman?

So good to converse with you again Brother.

cp

It seems circular to you brother because of the way you are seeing things right now, but God runs along the strait road not the twisted road. Jesus met Paul on straight street not twisted ave.

[pneuma]

Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

cp

What about this Pman?

So good to converse with you again Brother.

cp

Clay read post 45 for more clarification, and it is good to see you again also.

[claypot]

Pneuma, you wrote.......

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Where did disobedience originate from? Who or what made us able to disobey. Who or what created the circumstances and influences (serpent in garden) that led to us disobeying?

I agree WE disobeyed, thus the hardening but I am curious..............

cp

well according to scripture sin is of the devil brother, so unless God and the devil are in concord with one another, which is contrary to scripture I don't see how people can say God planned out mans disobedience and sin.

Sin is of the devil (the carnal mindset IMO).

Anyway, back to square one then………..where did the devil originate from? Who or what created the conditions for 'him' to exist? Why was the 'serpent' allowed in to the 'garden'? Who allowed the serpent to exist?

The serpent indeed is a weapon formed against us, but for what end? If a good end then I can understand God behind this creation.

cp

[claypot]

Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

cp

What about this Pman?

So good to converse with you again Brother.

cp

It seems circular to you brother because of the way you are seeing things right now, but God runs along the strait road not the twisted road. Jesus met Paul on straight street not twisted ave.

I like the circular because I always end up back at God!!!!

I will read post 45, thanks.

What about my question…………..

Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.

cp

[pneuma]

read post 45 bro

[claypot]

Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?

Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.

Whether a person or a condition, someone or something created it or the conditions for 'it' to exist. IMO satan is a state of being, a carnal mindset as it were so I think I'm with ya here Brother.

I really don't see that 'satan' created it or him self. Only God genuinely creates, all else is more or less a remanufacturing or sorts.

cp

[pneuma]

Did God create the tares?

[claypot]

Did God create the tares?

God created the conditions for the tares to exist and grow.

Did God build my shed? Yes and no. I built my shed but God created all the conditions so it could happen. I built my shed yet I step back and thank God for the abilities and materials for such a thing to occur.

cp

[sparrow]

For Sister Sparrow;

Like a dreamer that was trying to build
A highway to the sky
All my hopes would come tumblin down
And I never knew just why
Until today when You pulled away the clouds
That hung like curtains on my eyes.
I was blind all these wasted years when
I thought I was so wise.
But then You took me by surprise.

Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.

All my life I have been searching
For that crazy missing part
With one touch You just rolled away
The stone that held my heart,
Now I see that the answer was as simple
As my need to let love in
And I am so sure I could never doubt
Your gentle touch again
It's like the power of the wind.

Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.

Written By Keith Green & Randy Stonehill  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLe59ekLzA

 

That was beautiful..
Thank you for posting it, friend. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...

Hope you are doing well brother! 

Yes God did that which He did not want to do,

Sorry Scott, this appears quite awry to me bro...

:omg:  How can you say that GOD ...DID... something "He DID NOT want to do"?   That is a statement of LACK of SELF CONTROL... For in essence, "we [as sinners] are strangled by the same rope!" -- as Paul noted in his experience:  Rom 8:15 (which [can't speak for you, but] I can relate to)  This is (though I sure you do not intend it to be) "HUMANIZING" God, bro...

GOD named ALL (declared), ...from END to BEGINNING, where He noted: Isaiah 46:10 

GOD says within this Scripture:  "...I WILL ...DO... ALL my PLEASURE" ...which would seem to mean (as you see it) that His -- "doing what He did NOT want to DO" -- was in some way, PLEASURE to Him?   

For He stated "I WILL DO"... and "DOING what He did not want to DO" falls into the category of "DO", does it not?  ... 

Not to mention that... "Him DOING what He did not want to DO" still falls under the blanket of His own COUNSEL (advisement) in Isaiah 46:10, ...under which ALL THINGS fall:  Eph 1:11 

The "manufacturer" is where the "ROOT" of innovation and responsibility lies.  ALL that the product can and WILL do, are founded in the PLANNING and DESIGN of the "manufacturer", and NOTHING concerning the function and capability of the PRODUCT, can be disassociated from the "manufacturer"... Which is WHY "Salvation" was already "eternally" IN PLACE, before Creation commenced, for part of the course of creation would include both, DISOBEDIENCE and REDEMPTION from it.

To think that GOD "did" something "He did not want to do", to me an "veiled" observation of Him. 

Shall He join our chorus, by whining -- "the devil made Me do it"?  (just "pulling" your leg bro!)

but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.

Sorry again dear brother, but I take exception to this statement, as well!

FIRST -- This is contrary to Rom 9:18 which notes that HARDENING (disobedience) ...and... MERCY (grace/forgiveness) are BOTH at the decision and descretion of GOD and HIS WILL, not man and his inability to obey.

SECOND -- GOD knew before a MAN even HAD, "CHOICE" -- that he would DISOBEY... yet He proceeded to create MAN anyway.  As I see it, that He KNEW what man would DO... and had created ALL OPTIONS (deciding the "obedient" and/or "disobedient" parameters of those "options"),  ...He therefore CANNOT be disassociated with MAN "doing" what he ended up "doing" (disobeying).

THIRD -- GOD decided to plant the "tree of the knowledge" in the Garden... as well as INFORMING the man of its LOCATION -- Gen 2:17 --  How can you say it was NOT part of the "plan"? ...not to mention that PRIOR (in the ETERNAL realm) to ANY of this, CHRIST was "slain"...  -- Rev 13:8

FOURTH --  The ONLY WAY that Man could "attain" the knowledge, was BY EXPERIENCE.  Why?  Because THAT is the WAY it occured.  GOD had this knowledge... but His SONS did NOT.  And they BECAME as IS God, by gaining this knowledge, VIA their [experiential] disobedience -- Gen 3:22

To say that MAN "disobeyed" without the participation of GOD's involvement or INTENTION, is to me (no offense), disregarding almost EVERYTHING that the facts display. 



...willieH 

[pneuma]

Hi Willie good to see you again also.

Your whole theology hangs on this scripture

GOD says within this Scripture:  "...I WILL ...DO... ALL my PLEASURE" ...which would seem to mean (as you see it) that His -- "doing what He did NOT want to DO" -- was in some way, PLEASURE to Him?

Now show me where it says it is God pleasure that we sin?

Because you are saying God finds pleasure in SIN.

And if He does not find pleasure in SIN then it obviously is NOT a part of His ALL HIS PLEASURE.

So again show me a scripture that says God has PLEASURE IN SIN?

It the same with His WILL, show me a scripture that says God WILL us TO SIN.

Seems to me many here believe a lot of things the scriptures do not even come close to saying.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PM... 

What about the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL?  Even though EVIL shall be absent from MANIFESTATION, does not mean that it NO LONGER IS available as a "KNOWLEDGE".   And because it is present as a KNOWLEDGE means that it has "PRESENCE" in its OPPOSITENESS...  Which remains to serve to MAGNIFY and DEFINE, good.

Knowing of something (evil) and doing it, is entirely two different things.

I don't (completely) disagree with this. 

The KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is contained in the SAME TREE or SOURCE as the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD... When ONE is PRESENT, the other is as well.

In MAN gaining the "knowledge", it took him DOING SOMETHING... not just INFORMATION.  KNOWING something is the APPLICATION of INFORMATION to EXPERIENCE... which is what is taking place in this realm, concerning GOOD and EVIL.

For instance, I can tell my child that SMOKING is not good for him and show him TONS of information to support what I "SAY"... However, oftentimes we find instruction of the abstaination of EVIL, cannot be KNOWN until it is EXPERIENCED... and/or WITNESSED.  If GOD said that it was not GOOD to murder someone, and NO ONE was ever "murdered" -- How would you KNOW this to be TRUE?

If it all it took for us to KNOW "Good & Evil" would've been GOD "telling us"... then why did He put us through all this PM?    I do not question His method... which has INFORMED us of EVIL as opposed to GOOD, via an ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with BOTH... 

This is the ULTIMATE "REALITY show"!! 

And according to you this directional thing has the tendency of ending up back where you started.

Either I was unclear, or you did not get my point.  That EVIL is not DONE does not mean that it is not PRESENT... for in the KNOWLEDGE is contained the "presence" of ANY given thing.

For instance... How can I possibly be aware of EAST, unless WEST is present?

As I endeavored to convey... The knowledge of EVIL and GOOD are 2 sides of the SAME SWORD... the SWORD is only COMPLETE when BOTH sides are PRESENT.  Manifestation does not determine presence.  GOD has FOREVER known EVIL as well as GOOD... but in FOREVER, He has not MANIFESTED part of what He KNOWS...    He created TIME for that manifestation to take place.

A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life

This observation STILL does not remove DEATH completely, for "DEATH" is part of the DEFINITION of what "life", ...IS!  As I said, ...opposites are more DIRECTIONAL, than POSITIONAL.

A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life.

Again brother... We move DIRECTIONALLY concerning "righteousness and unrighteousness" and BOTH remain as we do.  We never "arrive" we LIVE in the direction of RIGHTEOUSNESS and thereby are moving in the OPPOSITE direction of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... 

No matter HOW "righteous" you become PM... "Unrighteousness" remains right next to you... for you could abstain from stealing for an UNCOUNTABLE period, yet to take what is not yours, is there during the ENTIRETY of that PERIOD.  It is therefore, NOT absent.  It is only abstained from, by an active LIVING within RIGHTEOUSNESS...

GOD knew both GOOD and EVIL, and is an ETERNAL entity.  Which means that even though He does not DO Evil, does not mean that it is ABSENT.  It is just not practiced in HIS way of LIVING... and WE are to follow suit.

Self-denial, as in merely abstinent?

As I look at it, it NOT is "self denial", rather... cooperation with what is RIGHT. Not "abstaining" but cooperating with RIGHTEOUSNESS as the WAY in which to LIVE...

I do not "abstain" from murder.  I cooperate with the Creator to help sustain life... (I even capture bugs in the house and release them outside  )

Instead of looking at my act above as "not murdering", I look at it as RESPECTING all LIFE, in the same way I wish mine to be respected.

Thus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.

 

Not really.   

It is just CONTINUALLY traveling (living) in the OPPOSITE direction of evil... EVIL remains at ALL TIMES, as the DEFINITION of that DIRECTION (which you maintain as a "position")

"An infinite circulating means of exchange for philanthropy?"

A personal quote/question in response to the "Evil that remains at ALL TIMES."

His generous act to improve the human condition IS through CHRIST JESUS ...
... not EVIL.

I think when it comes down to it brother, we are saying much the same things... I do not believe everything is traveling in "CIRCULAR" directions... rather I believe they are traveling in "OPPOSITE" directions...

GOD said in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He would remove our sin as "far as East is from the West"... How "far" is that, bro?  All one has to do is TURN West in order for the East to be present!  What He was saying is that our SIN is removed and left here in this realm of TIME, ...and we shall be heading in the OPPOSITE Direction of it -- FOREVER...

Without EVIL, there is no "KNOWLEDGE" of GOOD... for it is thereby ALONE without something to note what it ...IS... 

I was watching a show last spring called "the millionaires".  And in it, it took MILLIONAIRES and placed them in POVERTY situations.  In EVERY CASE the MILLIONAIRES were DEEPLY affected by the POVERTY, especially those who were BORN into their money.  They had NO IDEA that people actually lived differently than themselves!

If you have ALWAYS had something to EAT, whenever you wanted... you have NO true COMPREHENSION of suffering STARVATON -- which is it's OPPOSITE scenario...

Comprehending STARVATION defines the RICHES found within having that need to eat, MET.   It also serves to nurture the desire to help others which DO NOT have that need MET in their experience.

I worked and served for a time in a homeless shelter.  Try it sometime, it is quite enlightening, and serves not only to prompt THANKSGIVING to God, in ones own experience, but also reveals the GREAT RICHES you have in just having simple needs met, ...needs that are NOT met in MANY, MANY others.

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...

continuing...

Your whole theology hangs on this scripture

GOD says within this Scripture:  "...I WILL ...DO... ALL my PLEASURE" ...which would seem to mean (as you see it) that His -- "doing what He did NOT want to DO" -- was in some way, PLEASURE to Him?

Now show me where it says it is God pleasure that we sin?

It is within HIS PLEASURE [desire] that SIN and DEATH occur in our experience, for He has thereby INVESTED knowledge IN US, that only HE HAD, ...which delivers BOTH into our scenario -- Gen 3:22 -- thereby it is PART of the CREATION and REVELATION process for SIN, Suffering and DEATH to be manifest...

GOOD and EVIL are part of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, who IS the WORD.  GOOD and EVIL are both manifest in the course of MAN's History, for the WORD notes them, and GOD takes PLEASURE in ALL His WORD notes... for it is ultimately GOOD and PERFECT.

CHRIST was made PERFECT [complete] THROUGH SUFFERINGS... Even though GOD must bear this Himself, it HIS intention to make PERFECT, and COMPLETE,  ...ALL THINGS... which are ALL the THINGS to which He sets His hand to... the POTTER PERFECTLY shaping His Creation... which in PART must be found MARRED at His descretion -- Jer 18:4

Because you are saying God finds pleasure in SIN.

I did NOT say "that" bro, YOU did...

I said that ALL that occurs is DONE of HIS WILL and it is HIS PLEASURE to immerse us in the OPPOSITE of Himself (Hardening/concluding in UNBELIEF), and to REMOVE us FROM IT (Mercy/Grace/redemption)... BOTH of which are done at HIS HAND.

I am saying that through this process, GOD finds PLEASURE in the REVELATION of HIMSELF to us... part of which is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which entails this PROCESS, in order to be REVEALED... WHY?  Because we are indeed within and LIVING IN, that process...

HE is WORKING ALL THINGS... That leaves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that HE is not ACTIVELY "WORKING"... 

And if He does not find pleasure in SIN then it obviously is NOT a part of His ALL HIS PLEASURE.

That you or I do not see the WHOLE picture, does not mean it is not there... As I said, It is HIS PLEASURE to DO what HE DOES... Part of which includes HARDENING (done of His WILL), and CONCLUDING ALL in UNBELIEF (whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN)... As well as FINDING FAULT in the whole thing -- Rom 9:18-20

HE sends us into captivity Scott -- Jer 29:14 -- And HE returns us from that captivity --- HE directs the steps bro -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24

So again show me a scripture that says God has PLEASURE IN SIN?

I have already done so... if you do not see it, ...you do not.  There is no point in repeating what I have already noted.

HIS PLEASURE is found in the COMPLETED process, in which HE works ALL THINGS, and of which HE is a PART, in every instance for there is NO POWER other than His -- Rom 13:1 --

So ANY POWER that is exercised by MAN, find its source -- (1) In HIM -- (2) is thereby enlisted within HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- which are ALL done according to HIS WILL --

Btw... YOU have not indicated comment on your proposal of GOD's "lack of SELF CONTROL" (DOING what He did NOT want to DO)    And upon what SCRIPTURE does it SAY:  "He DOES what He DOES NOT WANT to DO"?   

It the same with His WILL, show me a scripture that says God WILL us TO SIN.

There are MANY, but for now ...I'll give you FOUR:

Rom 11:32 -- For GOD hath CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have MERCY upon ALL Which notes that UNBELIEF has its SOURCE in HIM, and is therefore DETERMINED to BE, ...BY HIM.

Rom 14:23 -- whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, is SIN -- He has concluded us in UNBELIEF, so He thereby CONCLUDES us to SIN.  We do not have the option to NOT SIN, for we are CONCLUDED to do so, BY Him.

Jer 10:23 -- O YHVH, I know that the WAY of MAN, is NOT in HIMSELF... NOT in MAN that walketh to DIRECT His steps -- In our "steps" and in our "way" we SIN... and this Scripture notes that these "steps" and "way" are NOT in us...

Rom 9:18-19 -- Therefore He hath MERCY upon whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL, ...HE HARDENETH ...thou wilt say unto me why doth He yet find fault? For WHO hath resisted HIS WILL? -- This verse notes that FAULT is found BECAUSE of His WILL, on those who were HARDENED by HIM, of HIS WILL...

Seems to me many here believe a lot of things the scriptures do not even come close to saying.

"seems to me" is the key, Scott...

Have you considered that you have things yet to learn bro Scott?  And within those "things", ...there are INDEED, a LOT of "things" you are yet to KNOW?  Think about it. 

...willieH 

[peacemaker]

Do good and evil, like heaven and hell, still indoctrinate the hearts of men?

The two edged sword of good and evil has varying implications, generally well-adapted for cutting; unmercifully:

"Thin cutting edges without a fine point?"

Whereas, His Word is an instrument that is sharper than any sword; quick and to the point, piercing deep within the heart of the matter.

"For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and SHARPER THAN ANY TWO-EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

Let us be acute in spirit, sensitive to his engrafted word for we are not really learning; just remembering.

Creation is everything that's within, and true power is tempered with love.

peacemaker

[pneuma]

No brother you have not given me any scripture that says it is Gods pleasure for us to sin.

All you have is given me your understanding of some scriptures that I see differently than you but what I see shows forth Gods nature. What you see shows forth God and satans nature mixed together.

Willie everything is NOT YET done according to God will.

It is NOT GODS WILL that any should PERISH, yet people PERISH all through scripture. Yet your belief makes people perishing God's will.

Sorry bro I believe the scriptures.

Willie, unlike you saying God works sin as part of His pleasure or will without scriptural backing that ACTUALLY states such I do have scripture that states God did not want to sacrifice His son.

Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Desire/PLEASURE—God has PLEASURE in mercy NOT SACRIFICE.

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Desire/PLEASURE- God had NO PLEASURE in sacrifice and offerings.

I know I have a lot to learn brother, you keep telling me that I do every time we speak to one another, but did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe it is you that is in need of learning.

[claypot]

Pneuma, you asked me if God created tares and I answered you (and I see you've been busy on another front) but if you got time, I am curious to what you think of my answer.........

God created the conditions for the tares to exist and grow.

Did God build my shed? Yes and no. I built my shed but God created all the conditions so it could happen. I built my shed yet I step back and thank God for the abilities and materials for such a thing to occur.

I also wonder, because I appreciate your thoughts much, I wonder what you think about my comment on circular reasonings. This seems to be thought a bad thing but if all started out with God what makes more sense than all will end up with God..........God all in all, the perfect circle?

cp