Author Topic: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.  (Read 22152 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #175 on: August 06, 2009, 10:29:12 PM »
willieH: Hi PM...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH
Something ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD...  :blah: :blahgreen: ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...

And the opposite of one thing is the absence of the other.

I disagree with this... No matter HOW FAR or how long, you travel WEST, does this mean only WEST eventually becomes the only available direction to travel?

The TRUTH is, that wherever you are, BOTH directions are available at ALL TIMES. And BOTH directions define in WHICH of them you are "headed".  :dontknow:

What about the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL?  Even though EVIL shall be absent from MANIFESTATION, does not mean that it NO LONGER IS available as a "KNOWLEDGE".   And because it is present as a KNOWLEDGE means that it has "PRESENCE" in its OPPOSITENESS...  Which remains to serve to MAGNIFY and DEFINE, good.

The freezing point of water is 32 Fahrenheit, or 0 Celsius.
And we know what absolute zero is, but that is not the point.

The "POINT" is... that MAN cannot set ABSOLUTES... Only GOD can set ABSOLUTES.

Quote from: willieH
How "DARK" is absolute DARK?  Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH?  :dontknow:

Are you referring to His Light, and that of a candle that "adds to" in contrast to that which IS ?

I am saying that LIGHT can be ENHANCED by MORE LIGHT.  If I have a pocket flashlight and go into a darkened room... it affords "light" to a small degree... but when I turn on the ELECTRIC LIGHTS in the room... MORE LIGHT is afforded.

Quote from: willieH
Are you sure?
 
"Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual."

My point is that, the DEAD are STILL alive in GOD... for GOD is not the GOD of the DEAD.  If there are those who are COMPLETELY DEAD, then is GOD not "their God"? 

GOD is the GOD of ALL THINGS, whether they be "temporarily" DEAD, either SPIRITUALLY or PHYSCIALLY...  One can be DEAD spiritually, yet ALIVE physically... and vice versa.  Yet GOD remains their GOD, even though DIRECTIONALLY they are removed from the observation of LIFE.

Quote from: willieH
CHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)!   In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.

As stated in the above quote, death is the absence of life, not difficult to digest for either of us. And a body without the [HIS] Spirit is dead, so whether physically alive or not, matters not.

NOTHING within GOD is truly DEAD... and ALL THINGS are ...IN HIM...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
As I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 --  It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD"   :laughing7:

A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life

This observation STILL does not remove DEATH completely, for "DEATH" is part of the DEFINITION of what "life", ...IS!  As I said, ...opposites are more DIRECTIONAL, than POSITIONAL.
 
Quote from: willieH
GOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"?  IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin:laughhand:

And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST?  And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE?  :mshock:

Indeed, but not a reference to going in a circle, like around this EARTHLY habitat.


East and West are directions, not POSITIONS... They are only "positions" when referenced from another PLACE.  However... even though one is in the EAST, he CAN move WEST, and never arrive in the WEST completely for there are things WEST of where he "arrives"...

For instance... even though we arrive in Los Angeles on a trip from New York, ...New York is "East" of us, yet if we continue traveling WEST, we shall again, eventually arrive in New York...  New York is both EAST AND WEST -- of LOS ANGELES...

Quote from: willieH
When the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.

A change in position from death to life, let us return:

"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."

Don't know why you made this quote, nor where it is from, I find it irrelevant.

No matter HOW "righteous" you become PM... "Unrighteousness" remains right next to you... for you could abstain from stealing for an UNCOUNTABLE period, yet to take what is not yours, is there during the ENTIRETY of that PERIOD.  It is therefore, NOT absent.  It is only abstained from, by an active LIVING within RIGHTEOUSNESS...

GOD knew both GOOD and EVIL, and is an ETERNAL entity.  Which means that even though He does not DO Evil, does not mean that it is ABSENT.  It is just not practiced in HIS way of LIVING... and WE are to follow suit.

Thus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.
 

Not really.   :laughing7:

It is just CONTINUALLY traveling (living) in the OPPOSITE direction of evil... EVIL remains at ALL TIMES, as the DEFINITION of that DIRECTION (which you maintain as a "position")

:Peace: me-bratha  :afFro:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #176 on: August 06, 2009, 10:33:28 PM »
How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track;  if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?   

How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth?  That's just not my view of "I AM".

God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.

Jab that post just goes to show how little you understand what I have been saying.
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.

What you don't seem to understand is that what I just put forth in that little explination is that it matches up with the rest of scripture.
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
What you guys do is make God and satan one, and what an assasination of Gods character that is. What concord has Christ with satan, NOTHING.
As for God soverneity, it denotes KINGSHIP, and the kingdom of this world are NOT YET the kingdoms of Christ.
Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth, if His will is being done on earth as you so obviously beleive then Jesus taught us a redundant prayer.
His reign does not start until the aionion age. And that is all backed up with scripture.
God said that it is not His will that any should perish, YET we know that people perish, WHY? because His will is NOT YET being done. You have to put God sovergnty where it belongs, in the kingdom age, where His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.to do otherwise is to make Gods word and will a lie.

A couple of things here. Hebrews says all things are already subjected to Christ, yet we do not yet see them subjected. The difference is one of perception.
Some of us believe (for scriptural reasons) that his reign has already begun. We can't put God's sovereignty only in some "kingdom age", because God is always sovereign. He may not appear to be sovereign on earth right now, but as Hebrews points out, appearances can be deceiving.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #177 on: August 06, 2009, 10:35:35 PM »
Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing, no one is predestinated to sin

Sounds familiar, simple and to the point. :gthumbsup:

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #178 on: August 06, 2009, 10:42:44 PM »
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #179 on: August 06, 2009, 10:45:23 PM »
How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track;  if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?   

How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth?  That's just not my view of "I AM".

God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.

Jab that post just goes to show how little you understand what I have been saying.
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.

What you don't seem to understand is that what I just put forth in that little explination is that it matches up with the rest of scripture.
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
What you guys do is make God and satan one, and what an assasination of Gods character that is. What concord has Christ with satan, NOTHING.
As for God soverneity, it denotes KINGSHIP, and the kingdom of this world are NOT YET the kingdoms of Christ.
Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth, if His will is being done on earth as you so obviously beleive then Jesus taught us a redundant prayer.
His reign does not start until the aionion age. And that is all backed up with scripture.
God said that it is not His will that any should perish, YET we know that people perish, WHY? because His will is NOT YET being done. You have to put God sovergnty where it belongs, in the kingdom age, where His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.to do otherwise is to make Gods word and will a lie.

A couple of things here. Hebrews says all things are already subjected to Christ, yet we do not yet see them subjected. The difference is one of perception.
Some of us believe (for scriptural reasons) that his reign has already begun. We can't put God's sovereignty only in some "kingdom age", because God is always sovereign. He may not appear to be sovereign on earth right now, but as Hebrews points out, appearances can be deceiving.

God also calls those things that are NOT as though they were.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12883
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #180 on: August 06, 2009, 10:55:14 PM »
Hi WW, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing correct?
Agreed. But on the scale of perfection God works on they become the same... (see below)
Quote
God does predestine and God has foreknowledge correct?
Yes.
Quote
Therefore, if God planned it all out this way and nothing can change His plan that predestination.
What than is the need of Gods foreknowledge?
If He has got it all planned out in advance to begin with, foreknowledge become redundant.
Depends how you look at it. You could say the foreknowledge is of no use. You could also say God can use the foreknowledge to base His plans on.
Besides of that what is the problem that Gods far far more/to much to handle His creation?
His powers my be overkill but that's just the way He is.


Quote
But if God because of His foreknowledge knew that man might sin because of their choices He gave them than made provision for every choice man makes shows forth an all knowing God.
The question is did He really give choices? Take for example a moth. I always flies toward the light. Even if it is a flame.
We are moths too. And our flame is called sin. We are warned about the flame but our urge to fly to the light/flame is so overwelming we can stop ourselfs. So do we/the moth really have a choice?
Quote
Look at it this way, the choices I have made in life are not likely the choices you have made in life, but God still met us in the different choices we each made.
Did we make different choices or where we presented different flames...?

Quote
You know what is ironic about all this brother?
Is that if a Calvinist came to this board and said God predestined people to be torment, everyone would jump all over the Calvinist and say no God did not, yet that same predestination that the Calvinists believe in is running rampant on this board.
For what the difference in the Calvinist saying God predestined people for torment and saying God planned for people to be tormented. NOTHING

A big difference I think Scott. I think the main problem UR-people have with Calvinist is not predestination. Some UR-people believe in that too. The main problem lays in the end result. Eternal torture in real flames or eternal bliss in Heaven. Yes, I have my thoughts/reservations to that path to heaven. I find His plan weird/not understandble. Etc.
But I rather live in a completed UR-plan than I live in a completed ET-plan.

So to recap. My view is that God has firm in/direct control of good and evil (did you read my posts about bara in this thread) If He hasn't that means He has made some mistake designing and/or managing His creation. I think that's not the case.
Another certainty is that you don't agree with me. That's no problem with me. Maybe one of us or both alter their views.
But not today I fear :HeartThrob:

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #181 on: August 06, 2009, 11:16:27 PM »
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.


Depends partly on what you mean by perishing, but I'd say that nothing is happening against his ultimate intention. There is a difference in Greek between his stated will and his ultimate intention. Often his stated will is gone against, even by Him, specifically to accomplish His ultimate intention. Does this damage the sovereignty of God? Absolutely not.

As part of my sig. says, God doesn't want us to pray in order to change Him, but to change us. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a statement of subjection to His will on our part, not a magic spell we use that's actually going to make it happen. Only God through his life in us is going to make that a visible reality in this earthly realm; the power lies with Him, not in our uttering of certain words.

Also, God has the authority to call those things that are not as though they are; partly because he knows (and is) the beginning and the end.

Are you really trying to say that God's sovereignty is limited? Or are you just trying to get him off the hook, when He has made it plain that though He holds us individually accountable, He is ultimately responsible, directly or indirectly...
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #182 on: August 06, 2009, 11:38:39 PM »
Hi WW, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing correct?
Agreed. But on the scale of perfection God works on they become the same... (see below)
Quote
God does predestine and God has foreknowledge correct?
Yes.
Quote
Therefore, if God planned it all out this way and nothing can change His plan that predestination.
What than is the need of Gods foreknowledge?
If He has got it all planned out in advance to begin with, foreknowledge become redundant.
Depends how you look at it. You could say the foreknowledge is of no use. You could also say God can use the foreknowledge to base His plans on.
Besides of that what is the problem that Gods far far more/to much to handle His creation?
His powers my be overkill but that's just the way He is.


Quote
But if God because of His foreknowledge knew that man might sin because of their choices He gave them than made provision for every choice man makes shows forth an all knowing God.
The question is did He really give choices? Take for example a moth. I always flies toward the light. Even if it is a flame.
We are moths too. And our flame is called sin. We are warned about the flame but our urge to fly to the light/flame is so overwelming we can stop ourselfs. So do we/the moth really have a choice?
Quote
Look at it this way, the choices I have made in life are not likely the choices you have made in life, but God still met us in the different choices we each made.
Did we make different choices or where we presented different flames...?

Quote
You know what is ironic about all this brother?
Is that if a Calvinist came to this board and said God predestined people to be torment, everyone would jump all over the Calvinist and say no God did not, yet that same predestination that the Calvinists believe in is running rampant on this board.
For what the difference in the Calvinist saying God predestined people for torment and saying God planned for people to be tormented. NOTHING

A big difference I think Scott. I think the main problem UR-people have with Calvinist is not predestination. Some UR-people believe in that too. The main problem lays in the end result. Eternal torture in real flames or eternal bliss in Heaven. Yes, I have my thoughts/reservations to that path to heaven. I find His plan weird/not understandble. Etc.
But I rather live in a completed UR-plan than I live in a completed ET-plan.

So to recap. My view is that God has firm in/direct control of good and evil (did you read my posts about bara in this thread) If He hasn't that means He has made some mistake designing and/or managing His creation. I think that's not the case.
Another certainty is that you don't agree with me. That's no problem with me. Maybe one of us or both alter their views.
But not today I fear :HeartThrob:



Hi WW, the scriptures state we have the choice between life and death, choose life.
I don't care how one want to go around this scripture it must mesh with the rest.
If everything is planned and unalterable than no choice at all, no matter how you look at it we are than just puppets on a string. And I do not understand how people cannot see that.

No scripture that I am aware of state we are predestinated to sin and death, we are ONLY predestinated to LIFE in Christ not death in Adam.
I also believe God is in control because He know our every choice and will meet us in that choice, David said I make my bed in Hell and you are with me, he never said YOU made my bed in hell and are with me.

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #183 on: August 06, 2009, 11:45:03 PM »
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.


Depends partly on what you mean by perishing, but I'd say that nothing is happening against his ultimate intention. There is a difference in Greek between his stated will and his ultimate intention. Often his stated will is gone against, even by Him, specifically to accomplish His ultimate intention. Does this damage the sovereignty of God? Absolutely not.

As part of my sig. says, God doesn't want us to pray in order to change Him, but to change us. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a statement of subjection to His will on our part, not a magic spell we use that's actually going to make it happen. Only God through his life in us is going to make that a visible reality in this earthly realm; the power lies with Him, not in our uttering of certain words.

Also, God has the authority to call those things that are not as though they are; partly because he knows (and is) the beginning and the end.

Are you really trying to say that God's sovereignty is limited? Or are you just trying to get him off the hook, when He has made it plain that though He holds us individually accountable, He is ultimately responsible, directly or indirectly...

http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/08/free-will-choice-between-life-and-death.html

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #184 on: August 07, 2009, 12:54:43 AM »
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.


Depends partly on what you mean by perishing, but I'd say that nothing is happening against his ultimate intention. There is a difference in Greek between his stated will and his ultimate intention. Often his stated will is gone against, even by Him, specifically to accomplish His ultimate intention. Does this damage the sovereignty of God? Absolutely not.

As part of my sig. says, God doesn't want us to pray in order to change Him, but to change us. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a statement of subjection to His will on our part, not a magic spell we use that's actually going to make it happen. Only God through his life in us is going to make that a visible reality in this earthly realm; the power lies with Him, not in our uttering of certain words.

Also, God has the authority to call those things that are not as though they are; partly because he knows (and is) the beginning and the end.

Are you really trying to say that God's sovereignty is limited? Or are you just trying to get him off the hook, when He has made it plain that though He holds us individually accountable, He is ultimately responsible, directly or indirectly...

http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/08/free-will-choice-between-life-and-death.html

While this doesn't directly address the points I raised; after reading that, I have some questions for you.

Do you believe that man's "freewill" (choices) can ever trump God's ultimate intention? (I agree that we can go against His stated will for us, for a time; but you concede the point that perishing does not limit the ability for salvation at some point).

Who gives us the ability to even make the "right" choice? (The choice which lines up with His stated will)

If God chooses to withhold the ability (even for a time, by not giving the ability) to make the choice that lines up with His stated will; does that entail "freewill"?

Does any of this affect God's sovereignty?

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and harden whom I will harden".

He works all things according to the counsel of his will.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 01:36:26 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Seth

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2561
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #185 on: August 07, 2009, 01:09:30 AM »
so it begins  :laughing7:

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #186 on: August 07, 2009, 01:18:40 AM »
I suspect we're saying much the same thing from different perspectives. Pneuma's saying half empty, I'm saying half full. I'm not trying to start an argument over free will, because I think when it comes down to it, free will is a question of semantics. It's not a biblical term. I'm just trying to get clarification on what's being asserted.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8426
  • Gender: Female
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #187 on: August 07, 2009, 01:19:26 AM »
While this doesn't directly address the points I raised; after reading that, I have some questions for you.

Do you believe that man's "freewill" (choices) can ever trump God's ultimate intention? (I agree that we can go against His stated will for us, for a time; but you concede the point that perishing does not limit the ability for salvation at some point).

Who gives us the ability to even make the "right" choice? (The choice which lines up with His stated will)

If God chooses to withhold the ability (even for a time, by not giving the ability) to make the choice that lines up with His stated will; does that entail "freewill"?

Does any of this affect God's sovereignty?

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and harden whom I will harden".

 :cloud9: Not to me, it doesn't. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #188 on: August 07, 2009, 06:10:39 AM »
 :hihat: Willie

Quote from: willieH
Something ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD...  :blah: :blahgreen: ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...

And the opposite of one thing is the absence of the other.

Quote
I disagree with this... No matter HOW FAR or how long, you travel WEST, does this mean only WEST eventually becomes the only available direction to travel?

The TRUTH is, that wherever you are, BOTH directions are available at ALL TIMES. And BOTH directions define in WHICH of them you are "headed".  :dontknow:

What about the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL?  Even though EVIL shall be absent from MANIFESTATION, does not mean that it NO LONGER IS available as a "KNOWLEDGE".   And because it is present as a KNOWLEDGE means that it has "PRESENCE" in its OPPOSITENESS...  Which remains to serve to MAGNIFY and DEFINE, good.

Knowing of something (evil) and doing it, is entirely two different things. And according to you this directional thing has the tendency of ending up back where you started. A universal thought, but this doing of evil is linear. Thus, are we here to gain this knowledge of evil from suffering? In other words, did Christ Jesus learn evil from the things He suffered? Is this your fortified position or direction, that He was to learn evil?

The freezing point of water is 32 Fahrenheit, or 0 Celsius.
And we know what absolute zero is, but that is not the point.

Quote
The "POINT" is... that MAN cannot set ABSOLUTES... Only GOD can set ABSOLUTES.

Never stated that man could, so, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill just because the word "absolute zero" was used to make a different point.

Quote from: willieH
How "DARK" is absolute DARK?  Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH?  :dontknow:

Are you referring to His Light, and that of a candle that "adds to" in contrast to that which IS ?

Quote
I am saying that LIGHT can be ENHANCED by MORE LIGHT.  If I have a pocket flashlight and go into a darkened room... it affords "light" to a small degree... but when I turn on the ELECTRIC LIGHTS in the room... MORE LIGHT is afforded.

No need to purchase a separate flashlight for better, "Homes and Gardens," as: "There is no darkness in Him."
So, if there is no darkness in him, what are His attributes without using worldly syncretism?
 
Quote from: willieH
Are you sure?
 
"Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual."

Quote
My point is that, the DEAD are STILL alive in GOD... for GOD is not the GOD of the DEAD.  If there are those who are COMPLETELY DEAD, then is GOD not "their God"? 

GOD is the GOD of ALL THINGS, whether they be "temporarily" DEAD, either SPIRITUALLY or PHYSCIALLY...  One can be DEAD spiritually, yet ALIVE physically... and vice versa.  Yet GOD remains their GOD, even though DIRECTIONALLY they are removed from the observation of LIFE.

Again, never stated this, that He was not, although I understand you wanting to make these points.

Quote from: willieH
CHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)!   In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.

As stated in the above quote, death is the absence of life, not difficult to digest for either of us. And a body without the [HIS] Spirit is dead, so whether physically alive or not, matters not.

Quote
NOTHING within GOD is truly DEAD... and ALL THINGS are ...IN HIM...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
As I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 --  It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD"   :laughing7:

A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life

Quote
This observation STILL does not remove DEATH completely, for "DEATH" is part of the DEFINITION of what "life", ...IS!  As I said, ...opposites are more DIRECTIONAL, than POSITIONAL.

A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life.
 
Quote from: willieH
GOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"?  IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin:laughhand:

And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST?  And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE?  :mshock:

Indeed, but not a reference to going in a circle, like around this EARTHLY habitat.


Quote
East and West are directions, not POSITIONS... They are only "positions" when referenced from another PLACE.  However... even though one is in the EAST, he CAN move WEST, and never arrive in the WEST completely for there are things WEST of where he "arrives"...

For instance... even though we arrive in Los Angeles on a trip from New York, ...New York is "East" of us, yet if we continue traveling WEST, we shall again, eventually arrive in New York...  New York is both EAST AND WEST -- of LOS ANGELES...

Quote from: willieH
When the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.

A change in position from death to life, let us return:

"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."

Quote
Don't know why you made this quote, nor where it is from, I find it irrelevant.

It's a personal quote within this thread, however, relevant to "let us return" from death to life.

Quote
No matter HOW "righteous" you become PM... "Unrighteousness" remains right next to you... for you could abstain from stealing for an UNCOUNTABLE period, yet to take what is not yours, is there during the ENTIRETY of that PERIOD.  It is therefore, NOT absent.  It is only abstained from, by an active LIVING within RIGHTEOUSNESS...

GOD knew both GOOD and EVIL, and is an ETERNAL entity.  Which means that even though He does not DO Evil, does not mean that it is ABSENT.  It is just not practiced in HIS way of LIVING... and WE are to follow suit.

Self-denial, as in merely abstinent?

Thus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.
 

Quote
Not really.   :laughing7:

It is just CONTINUALLY traveling (living) in the OPPOSITE direction of evil... EVIL remains at ALL TIMES, as the DEFINITION of that DIRECTION (which you maintain as a "position")

"An infinite circulating means of exchange for philanthropy?"

A personal quote/question in response to the "Evil that remains at ALL TIMES."

His generous act to improve the human condition IS through CHRIST JESUS ...
... not EVIL.
peacemaker


« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 06:23:43 AM by peacemaker »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12883
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #189 on: August 07, 2009, 08:11:08 AM »
Hi WW, the scriptures state we have the choice between life and death, choose life.

I don't care how one want to go around this scripture it must mesh with the rest..
Sorry but you also see to go around many things said above. The truth is when all verses/facts are used. Not a nice selection.
Quote
If everything is planned and unalterable than no choice at all, no matter how you look at it we are than just puppets on a string. And I do not understand how people cannot see that.
The scriptures also state "noone can come to me unless Father drags you"
Kinda sounds God pulling some strings once in a while....

Quote
No scripture that I am aware of state we are predestinated to sin and death,
There are no scriptures either that claim that Father can walk on water. Or sit on the sun without burning.
But just taking His unlimited powers we can conclude those things would be of no problem to Him.
What I'm trying to say here is that certain statements have far reaching consequences.
That's what I try to explain in my previous posts. Won't bother you with a rehash of the same :happygrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8951
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #190 on: August 07, 2009, 08:43:50 AM »
There are many things I don't understand.  Despite accusation otherwise, I believe I have at least a fair understanding of the belief system (of what I perceive to be the faulty concept) on which much of the OP's supporting beliefs and commentary are based.   While in mainstream religion I shared much of the same beliefs for the first 40+ years of my life.  I believe we all do this to some degree, me included, but I also understand that when we believe an inaccurate precept, then we attempt to add other inaccurate precepts upon it;  with one trying to justify and reconcile the other.  And I also understand that just saying one's particular POV lines up with the rest of scripture doesn't necessarily make it so.  If we took a poll, I'd guess close to 100% of us each believe that's true about our own particular beliefs.  So "don't understand"?  It's perhaps more so, "don't agree".

I have no illusions of convincing someone who's already made up their mind, or expect them to agree.  Only God can do that with any of us.  However, anyone who is still honestly, openly seeking and may be confused by what scripture actually says, may benefit from these comments.

I believe when we view this topic, our view is often too much on a) our human reasonings, rather that just belief and trust, taking God for what He says and humbly walking with it before Him , and b) set too much on the temporal earthly view, as opposed to a "heavenly, immortal, ages without end" view.  In essence, the things we try to explain away, are often the very things God has said He does and are things He uses to bring about His ULTIMATE purposes.  Which is to WORK ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, and ALL THINGS FOR OUR GOOD...ULITMATELY!

Scripture says our death is blessed in God's eyes - in essence, we are going on into His glory.  So we may not understand His ways, but our view is based on OUR UNDERSTANDING, and limited within our understanding of TIME and THIS LIFE- not "eternal" (for lack of a better word) and with the FULL view of things which God has.  So we often attempt to explain such things through our own human imaginations that make sense to us, not a full view of "thus sayeth the Lord". 

The OP states alternate renderings for this;  "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."  But if one reads on in this same chapter of Isaiah, we find this;  "9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!....Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?  13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways:....saith the LORD of hosts."....also, "there is no God but one" (so much for the "some other 'Lord' in the OT theory!).

The Holy Spirit through the Book of Amos says (Amos 3:6)  "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be ra'ah [disaster, calamity, difficulty] in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

There are so many scriptures to make this point that God is indeed Lord of heaven and earth, and that He makes peace and creates evil, but I will just include one more;  "The LORD of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me by offering up sacrifices to Baal"  Jeremiah 11:17

I don't see where God has added "NOT ANY MORE" to Isaiah 45:7.  

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 11:15:33 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #191 on: August 07, 2009, 08:58:37 AM »
In essence, the things we try to explain away, are often the very things God has said He does and are things He uses to bring about His ULTIMATE purposes.  Which is to WORK ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, and ALL THINGS FOR OUR GOOD...ULITMATELY!

This is definitely the foundation we should all stand on with regards to this topic. No matter what we may each ponder. It all goes back to what you just said. His ultimate purpose is to work all things for our good. That's very comforting. The creator of the universe... imagine that. I am part of His ultimate purposes... to work things out for my good. Pretty humbling, esp. when you personalize it that way.
Thanks jabcat. :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8951
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #192 on: August 07, 2009, 09:22:47 AM »
Amen Sister Sparrow.  Oh how He loves you and me.  We see it only through a glass darkly, but when the realization you just shared breaks through;  despite all things we either don't understand about God and His awesome ways, or even go through all our conniptions trying to explain it away (heck, I do it too!), He still loves us.  All of us, warts and all!

Blessings to you!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 10:11:26 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8951
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #193 on: August 07, 2009, 09:27:13 AM »
You've both made a lot of very good, scripturally sound points WW and Doc  :thumbsup:

The point is, God is God, and we're not.  He knows what's best for us.  Even when He brings calamity, hardships (or even allows them) His ULTIMATE purpose is for GOOD!  So no matter, He is good.  He just uses what He knows works best and must be used to bring about His will.  And it is a good will.  He will have ALL THE NATIONS BE BLESSED THROUGH HIS DEAR SON, JESUS!  NO IFS, ANDS, OR BUTS.

Our role is not to question Him or tell Him what He really meant  :mblush:.  "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justly; to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8

Blessings to you all, including you, dear brother Scott.  Although I clearly disagree with much of what you're espousing here on this PARTICULAR thread, you are still a beloved child of the Most High, and my brother in the Lord.  I'm not right about everything, and (you don't have to admit it, I'll admit it for you  :laughing7:) you're not right about everything.  I'll say it again, we're all His work in progress.  :HeartThrob:

For us all, as the redeemed by the blood and saved by His grace - don't we think at some point (especially if there's nothing new to add and we're just going 'round in circles struggling needlessly with each other) that we need to back off these type discussions and go back to proclaiming "Hey world, Jesus is the Savior!  Believe on Him and have life more abundantly!" 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 11:12:31 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8951
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #194 on: August 07, 2009, 10:12:35 AM »
For Sister Sparrow;

Like a dreamer that was trying to build
A highway to the sky
All my hopes would come tumblin down
And I never knew just why
Until today when You pulled away the clouds
That hung like curtains on my eyes.
I was blind all these wasted years when
I thought I was so wise.
But then You took me by surprise.

Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.

All my life I have been searching
For that crazy missing part
With one touch You just rolled away
The stone that held my heart,
Now I see that the answer was as simple
As my need to let love in
And I am so sure I could never doubt
Your gentle touch again
It's like the power of the wind.

Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.

Written By Keith Green & Randy Stonehill  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLe59ekLzA

 :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 10:16:59 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8951
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #195 on: August 07, 2009, 11:38:23 AM »
I'd like to say that most of what I've said in this thread has been based on OT passages.  It might be worth considering that there has been a shift at least to some degree now in this age of grace, as we're blessed and God is reconciled to us throught the grace of His Son Yesu.

I think of the "shadow of better things to come", and I'd like to qualify a lot of what I've said in the light of the dispensation of grace - which is probably another topic unto itself!   :bigGrin:

I do believe God did just what He said He did in the OT.  He also apparently brought judgment to Ananias, Sapphira, and one of the Herods that took God's glory for himself and was eaten up with worms in the NT.  IMO, those things weren't by accident or God just turning His back.  As I understand, He purposed it, and then either allowed it or directly did it.  And maybe He will still use an experience of evil to teach us today whenever He deems it necessary and useful.  (Ever prayed for patience?  What happened when you did?  :mshock:)  But still we also have the scripture of the "Happy God" since His Son's death and resurrection.  Personally, I'd rather not try to explain away what God clearly says He did.  However, IMO, that should also include His mercy upon us through the sacrifice of the Innocent Lamb...Who's mercies are now being bestowed upon us.  All praise, honor and glory to the Father. 

God's blessings, James.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 11:45:22 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #196 on: August 07, 2009, 02:24:11 PM »
Hi Doc. As I cannot quote things the way I use to (the board jumps all over the place, can't even see what I am typing, and if I try to quote individual statements it really goes haywire) I will try to answer your questions the best I can, but if I miss answering one let me know ok.

Actually, it did answer your question Doc, perishing is the same perishing used in God not does not will that any should perish.

So if it is not His will that any perish, yet people perish throughout scripture obviously they are perishing against His will.

I know people talk about God permissive or stated will and Gods ultimate will, but Gods will is God will. Permissive will is mans invention to understand how people can go against God will.

No mans choices cannot trump God's ultimate plan.

But Gods ultimate plan is to make us in His image and likeness.

In the garden man had the right to the tree of life but because of mans choice he lost that right. So if God planned man to be disobedient from the get go why was the tree of life in the garden?
Gods ultimate plan was and is through the tree of life, NOT through disobedience and death. Mans ways=death, Gods ways=Life the two ways are contradictory to each other, yet many seem to believe Gods ways include man's ways, go figure.

There are two ways to Gods ultimate plan of making man in His image and likeness, the strait gate and the broad way that leadeth to destruction, and it depends on mans choices which way man goes. God predestines man to LIFE and man will ultimately find that LIFE, God does not predestine man to sin and disobedience.
 
God does not withhold mans choices, they are always open to man, but He will limit mans choices once man is disobedient. Adam could freely eat from the tree of life, but after his disobedience, he could not access that tree again until he went through fire and sword.

The strait gate and the broad way was before him, he chose the broad way through fire and sword, but he could have chose LIFE from the get go.
 
No none of this affects God's sovereignty, because Gods sovereignty is NOT of this world. Like I have said before sovereignty denotes kingship, and we don't find that kingship on this earth until the kingdom age when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, it is only then that He will reign (be sovereign) on earth just like He is in Heaven.

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

Note that the prayer not only says thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but that the prayer is also for His KINGDOM to come. It is NOT a redundant prayer, therefore His kingdom has NOT come, and His will is not being done YET on this earth.

Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.

Yes God works all things according to the counsel of his will, but can you find in scripture that God's will is for sin and disobedience?

Sin and disobedience are NOT according to the counsel of God's will.

What people think that scripture is referring to is that because God works according to His will, it must mean that He then willed for man's disobedience and sin, but we know that disobedience and sin is NOT according to His will.

People perishing are NOT according to His will, yet many seem to think it is according to His will.

I am not going to dwell on this point but you said freewill is not even recorded in scripture, and many seem to believe that without actually looking at the scriptures to if that is true, or they try to look it up by looking for free will, but it is not two words it is one word, freewill and it is used in scripture 26 times in the OT.

I'll just give you two, you can look up the rest if you want to.

Leviticus 23:38
38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Ezekiel 46:12
12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.

So you can see freewill is in scripture and it must then be taken into account to make the scriptures mesh with each other. For it should go without saying if we leave out scripture we can make the bible say anything we want it to.
God bless

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #197 on: August 07, 2009, 02:31:08 PM »
Quote
states alternate renderings for this;  "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."  But if one reads on in this same chapter of Isaiah, we find this;  "9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!....Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?  13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways:....saith the LORD of hosts."....also, "there is no God but one" (so much for the "some other 'Lord' in the OT theory!).

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?  15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.

Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them "I make peace, and create evil".

So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?

Or how does God create evil?

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts. 


Do we not see this same principle brought out here

Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Septuagint

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17

In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present. 

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?

You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?

Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #198 on: August 07, 2009, 02:39:03 PM »
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.


 :thumbsup:

underlining by me:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 

Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;



the order here is interesting:  1.  know God   2.  disobey, reject God   3.  God hardens heart. 



pneuma

  • Guest
Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #199 on: August 07, 2009, 03:54:57 PM »
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.


 :thumbsup:

underlining by me:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 

Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;



the order here is interesting:  1.  know God   2.  disobey, reject God   3.  God hardens heart. 



Amen Zeek  :thumbsup: