I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.

[pneuma]

Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).

Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?

YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.

Hi Seth to answer your question, yes Jesus obeyed God.
But I see this differently then you bro, you seem to understand it along the same lines a Bob.
Read this link Seth as I have already discussed this in great detail there, and if I am to do so again I will have to break the freewill taboo and I told Jab I would not go there.
God bless

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0

[Seth]

Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).

Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?

YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.

Hi Seth to answer your question, yes Jesus obeyed God.
But I see this differently then you bro, you seem to understand it along the same lines a Bob.
Read this link Seth as I have already discussed this in great detail there, and if I am to do so again I will have to break the freewill taboo and I told Jab I would not go there.
God bless

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0

Yeah, I know that the freewill thing is played out in this forum, and so I respect that. In this particular conversation it is just important to distinguish the terms, what it means when someone says "wanted." The reason it is important is because if you mean that God did not have an emotional pleasure in it, then we agree.  However, even if God did not "want" to do it, he still did it....and that is the true point that I am making.

God did it. That is the point. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PM...

Not trying to argue, rather, give a little food for thought... 

Ahhh! The heat-cold argument of good and evil, so just how cold is "cold?"

Absolute zero, is -273.15 degrees Celsius; approximately the temperature at which all molecules stop moving entirely. But what about 20 billionths of a degree above absolute zero?

Maybe a bit, warmer, you think? Having movement, perhaps?

So says man, ...there are NO ABSOLUTES with GOD...

How about a 100 billionth of a degree colder? NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD bro... so HE is able to add COLD to "ABSOLUTE COLD", thereby making it "COLDER", is He not?  Making "ABSOLUTE COLD" -- WARMER -- than the 100 billionth of a degree, "ABSOLUTE COLD-ER" 

How dark is dark? Can dark be made to be darker? Or lighter?

Again... "Opposites" are more "DIRECTIONS", rather than FIRM states of POSITION. 

Something ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD...  ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...

I once wrote a novel which contained a "DARKNESS" that was not only absent of LIGHT, but grew THICKER as it DARKENED! (kind of like the continuity of liquid being "thickened" -- adding flour to water, to make gravy -- etc)
 

Cold is present when there is absolutely no heat.

When is that (no heat) PM?   Again, I remind, that it appears basing these conclusions here upon findings OF, and MAN's ability TO, comprehend and recognize, which is sorrowfully limited and inadaquate.

When an ICE CUBE becomes FROZEN, how much more COLD can it withstand?

Darkness is present when there is absolutely no light.

Is that possible?  How "DARK" is absolute DARK?  Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH? 

And Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual.

Are you sure?  CHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)!   In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.

As I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 --  It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD"   

Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?

"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."

A lesser degree of that which IS? (IMO)

GOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"?  IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin? 

And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST?  And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE? 

The TRUTH (IMO) is that OPPOSITES whether they be noted or observed in the PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL realms are DIRECTIONS more than they are POSITIONS.

When the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.

...willieH 

[Doc]

When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.

Sparrow, my thoughts on this topic of God "creating" or "forming" evil not that he FORCES man to do anything. I actually don't think God NEEDS to force man to do what he already wants to do: sin, sin, sin.

It is so much worth noting, that Romans 7 establishes that what causes people to sin is their sin generating flesh, and being in subjection to it. Under that condition, why would God need to force anyone to do evil, when the motions of sin are already in place? And this to the point where even when a man in the flesh WANTS to do good, he cannot do it! Have you ever been wronged by someone to the point where you want to hate them? Well, when you remember that it is not them wronging you but the sin they are slaves to, perspectives change, because then you can feel sorrow for the person, rather than seeing them as an object for revenge.

My point in saying all this is that I agree, God does not force anyone to sin. But he did create the flesh, and the flesh by default shoots WIDE of the mark of the Spirit. And everyone is born into the flesh which automatically lusts against the Spirit. When I think about God creating evil, I think about Christ's persecution. If I saw that without knowledge of God's will and power concerning His Son's fate, would I think it to be a work of Satan, a innocent man murdered in the worst way, or according to God's hand?

Except that we then have issues with such verses as "He has subjected all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all."

If this does not mean that we have been subjected to disobedience (sin), then what does it mean?

I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.

[Seth]

I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.

Doc, it looks like we are in agreement, so not sure how it means we have a problem with "he subjected all to disobedience." We seem to agree as to where that disobedience is generated, the flesh right? And we agree that God created the flesh, and that all people are bound to it until set free right? So not sure exactly where we run into a problem.

[Doc]

I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.

Doc, it looks like we are in agreement, so not sure how it means we have a problem with "he subjected all to disobedience." We seem to agree as to where that disobedience is generated, the flesh right? And we agree that God created the flesh, and that all people are bound to it until set free right? So not sure exactly where we run into a problem.

I think my point was simply that God does take responsibility for it at some level. Perhaps I misread your statement as indicating we are entirely at fault.

[peacemaker]

willieH: Hi PM...

Not trying to argue, rather, give a little food for thought... 

No worries, not on a diet!

How about a 100 billionth of a degree colder? NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD bro... so HE is able to add COLD to "ABSOLUTE COLD", thereby making it "COLDER", is He not?  Making "ABSOLUTE COLD" -- WARMER -- than the 100 billionth of a degree, "ABSOLUTE COLD-ER" 

That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.

Something ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD...  ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...

And the opposite of one thing is the absence of the other.

When an ICE CUBE becomes FROZEN, how much more COLD can it withstand?

The freezing point of water is 32 ° Fahrenheit, or 0 ° Celsius.
And we know what absolute zero is, but that is not the point.

How "DARK" is absolute DARK?  Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH? 

Are you referring to His Light, and that of a candle that "adds to" in contrast to that which IS ?

Are you sure?

 
"Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual."

CHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)!   In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.

As stated in the above quote, death is the absence of life, not difficult to digest for either of us. And a body without the [HIS] Spirit is dead, so whether physically alive or not, matters not.

As I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 --  It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD"   

A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life.
 

GOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"?  IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin? 

And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST?  And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE? 

Indeed, but not a reference to going in a circle, like around this EARTHLY habitat.

When the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.

A change in position from death to life, let us return:

"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."

Thus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old. 


peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.

Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.

"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."

So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven
/end of interuption. Carry on...

[peacemaker]

That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.

Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.

"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."

So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven
/end of interuption. Carry on...

So basically, absolute zero is the theoretical temperature in which matter ceases to exist? 

"Moving beyond the speed of light, but at rest; thought provoking to say the least."

[pneuma]

Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).

Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?

YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.

Hi Seth to answer your question, yes Jesus obeyed God.
But I see this differently then you bro, you seem to understand it along the same lines a Bob.
Read this link Seth as I have already discussed this in great detail there, and if I am to do so again I will have to break the freewill taboo and I told Jab I would not go there.
God bless

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0

Yeah, I know that the freewill thing is played out in this forum, and so I respect that. In this particular conversation it is just important to distinguish the terms, what it means when someone says "wanted." The reason it is important is because if you mean that God did not have an emotional pleasure in it, then we agree.  However, even if God did not "want" to do it, he still did it....and that is the true point that I am making.

God did it. That is the point. 

Yes God did that which He did not want to do, but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.

[pneuma]

When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.

Sparrow, my thoughts on this topic of God "creating" or "forming" evil not that he FORCES man to do anything. I actually don't think God NEEDS to force man to do what he already wants to do: sin, sin, sin.

It is so much worth noting, that Romans 7 establishes that what causes people to sin is their sin generating flesh, and being in subjection to it. Under that condition, why would God need to force anyone to do evil, when the motions of sin are already in place? And this to the point where even when a man in the flesh WANTS to do good, he cannot do it! Have you ever been wronged by someone to the point where you want to hate them? Well, when you remember that it is not them wronging you but the sin they are slaves to, perspectives change, because then you can feel sorrow for the person, rather than seeing them as an object for revenge.

My point in saying all this is that I agree, God does not force anyone to sin. But he did create the flesh, and the flesh by default shoots WIDE of the mark of the Spirit. And everyone is born into the flesh which automatically lusts against the Spirit. When I think about God creating evil, I think about Christ's persecution. If I saw that without knowledge of God's will and power concerning His Son's fate, would I think it to be a work of Satan, a innocent man murdered in the worst way, or according to God's hand?

Except that we then have issues with such verses as "He has subjected all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all."

If this does not mean that we have been subjected to disobedience (sin), then what does it mean?

I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.

Hi Doc, yes God subjected the whole creation to vanity, but this happened after man became disobedient. God warned Adam death would ensue if he ate, Adam ate and we now have what we have in this world. All this crap is because of one man's sin, not because God planned for man to sin.

[lookingup]

All this crap is because of one man's sin, not because God planned for man to sin.

But God knew all that was going to happen, and He created and  started this mess anyway.

i believe He has a glorius purpose for all of us that we cannot even begin to imagine the wonder of it, and i don't believe He is going to have a trashcan bigger than His kingdom
 

[Seth]

Yes God did that which He did not want to do, but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.

I think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.

[jabcat]

How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track;  if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?   

How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth?  That's just not my view of "I AM".

God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.

[Doc]

I, for one, agree with you Jab.

If God ever lost control of His creation, this would indicate to me that He is not sovereign. I simply cannot believe that.
Not to mention that he already had the plan of redemption formed before the "fall" even occurred.

[jabcat]

Amen Doc.  Exactly as one of your tags says, "God does not need a Plan B, He's still on Plan A"!

God is mighty, not maybe.

[Cardinal]

That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.

Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.

"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."

So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven
/end of interuption. Carry on...

  That's "cool" WW, lol.......seriously though, it looks like a witness to me. Blessings.....

[pneuma]

All this crap is because of one man's sin, not because God planned for man to sin.

But God knew all that was going to happen, and He created and  started this mess anyway.

i believe He has a glorius purpose for all of us that we cannot even begin to imagine the wonder of it, and i don't believe He is going to have a trashcan bigger than His kingdom
 

Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing, no one is predestinated to sin

[pneuma]

Yes God did that which He did not want to do, but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.

I think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.

yes we see it differenlty bro, God weaves the evil of this world for His purpose, but did not create the evil.

[WhiteWings]

That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.

Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.

"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."

So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven
/end of interuption. Carry on...

  That's "cool" WW, lol.......seriously though, it looks like a witness to me. Blessings.....

What's the verse? See my handy work in nature....
The 4 horsemen where released during the big bang...

[pneuma]

How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track;  if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?   

How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth?  That's just not my view of "I AM".

God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.

Jab that post just goes to show how little you understand what I have been saying.
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.

What you don't seem to understand is that what I just put forth in that little explination is that it matches up with the rest of scripture.
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
What you guys do is make God and satan one, and what an assasination of Gods character that is. What concord has Christ with satan, NOTHING.
As for God soverneity, it denotes KINGSHIP, and the kingdom of this world are NOT YET the kingdoms of Christ.
Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth, if His will is being done on earth as you so obviously beleive then Jesus taught us a redundant prayer.
His reign does not start until the aionion age. And that is all backed up with scripture.
God said that it is not His will that any should perish, YET we know that people perish, WHY? because His will is NOT YET being done. You have to put God sovergnty where it belongs, in the kingdom age, where His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.to do otherwise is to make Gods word and will a lie.

[Seth]

I think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.

yes we see it differently bro, God weaves the evil of this world for His purpose, but did not create the evil.

It might be a difference in how we understand "create." How each of use understands different terms is what can make these conversations difficult. I see that when God sacrificed Jesus, he caused evil to happen to Him for that purpose.

create
1: to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2b: to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior (her arrival created a terrible fuss)

-----------

It's like links in a chain. Evil existed in the world before Jesus was sacrificed 2000 years ago, and indeed I agree with you that God "weaved that evil" according to his purpose. In doing so, God "brought about" the murder of an innocent man, an evil experience, weaving the evil that existed in man to save the world from sin through resurrection.

God created the evil that Jesus endured in that God brought it about. God created that evil to save the world.

[WhiteWings]

God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
.....
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.

Scott,
The way I see it is that God even before creation knew mankind would sin.
So God doesn't need to make "provisions for every eventuality of man choices" because He knew the eventualities even before creation.
Even with that foreknowledge God still did create us the way we are. (I'm sure He could have created differently)
So He wasn't caught by suprise and did some patchwork to fix the problems.
He knew and accepted the problems even before He started.
We can't say the problems are due to incompetence of God. That would make Him not almighty.
So if God is perfection and everything He does is perfect how can His creation act in not perfect, as intended, way?
I admit I find it very strange; but I can only conclude this mess we are in is according to plan.

[pneuma]

I think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.

yes we see it differently bro, God weaves the evil of this world for His purpose, but did not create the evil.

It might be a difference in how we understand "create." How each of use understands different terms is what can make these conversations difficult. I see that when God sacrificed Jesus, he caused evil to happen to Him for that purpose.

create
1: to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2b: to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior (her arrival created a terrible fuss)

-----------

It's like links in a chain. Evil existed in the world before Jesus was sacrificed 2000 years ago, and indeed I agree with you that God "weaved that evil" according to his purpose. In doing so, God "brought about" the murder of an innocent man, an evil experience, weaving the evil that existed in man to save the world from sin through resurrection.

God created the evil that Jesus endured in that God brought it about. God created that evil to save the world.

Seth that is very close to what I am saying, if you reread God did not want to sacrifice His son, but because of disobedience He did so, I think we are very close.

God bless

[pneuma]

God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
.....
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.

Scott,
The way I see it is that God even before creation knew mankind would sin.
So God doesn't need to make "provisions for every eventuality of man choices" because He knew the eventualities even before creation.
Even with that foreknowledge God still did create us the way we are. (I'm sure He could have created differently)
So He wasn't caught by suprise and did some patchwork to fix the problems.
He knew and accepted the problems even before He started.
We can't say the problems are due to incompetence of God. That would make Him not almighty.
So if God is perfection and everything He does is perfect how can His creation act in not perfect, as intended, way?
I admit I find it very strange; but I can only conclude this mess we are in is according to plan.

Hi WW, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing correct?
God does predestine and God has foreknowledge correct?
Therefore, if God planned it all out this way and nothing can change His plan that predestination.
What than is the need of Gods foreknowledge?
If He has got it all planned out in advance to begin with, foreknowledge become redundant.
But if God because of His foreknowledge knew that man might sin because of their choices He gave them than made provision for every choice man makes shows forth an all knowing God.
Look at it this way, the choices I have made in life are not likely the choices you have made in life, but God still met us in the different choices we each made.
You know what is ironic about all this brother?
Is that if a Calvinist came to this board and said God predestined people to be torment, everyone would jump all over the Calvinist and say no God did not, yet that same predestination that the Calvinists believe in is running rampant on this board.
For what the difference in the Calvinist saying God predestined people for torment and saying God planned for people to be tormented. NOTHING