Author Topic: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.  (Read 20159 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #125 on: August 05, 2009, 12:34:16 PM »
So evil is just the first and most primitive step in the creation process?

Molly,

I didn't imply that. But now you ask my answer is:
Could be true Molly because the creation account several times states:
".....there was night, there was day....."
So night became before day.
The Hebrew word for night also means chaos. The Hebrew word for day also means order.
Purely my thought/speculation.... night=chaos=sin,  day=order=perfection/love

A Jewish day goes from nightfall -> day
Doesn't Gods plan follow the same pattern?  Chaos/sin --> order/perfection ?

Just some thoughts that are not presented as proof or something with solid scriptual basis.
But not contrary either I think...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #126 on: August 05, 2009, 06:37:28 PM »
hmmm. Seth, your post just made something spring to mind.

Perhaps... "I create evil.."
Those words are nothing more than God taking responsibility FOR the evil that abounds in carnal man. since GOD is the one who subjected us to this carnal flesh, this corruption, this FUTILITY..He is taking RESPONSIBILITY for our evil that WE (in our carnal flesh state) commit.
(since He subjected us to this in the first place, so we would learn.... He is saying, *I* create evil. Taking it on Himself, just as He took our sins on HIS shoulders.)

I see it that way too. Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right? Evil was a critical part of God's plan, and still is. Look at the evil done to Christ. Who did it? Well, the Romans, the Jews, us all, etc. Yet on the most high level, the Bible says that God planned it and did it.

Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2009, 07:45:44 PM »
hmmm. Seth, your post just made something spring to mind.

Perhaps... "I create evil.."
Those words are nothing more than God taking responsibility FOR the evil that abounds in carnal man. since GOD is the one who subjected us to this carnal flesh, this corruption, this FUTILITY..He is taking RESPONSIBILITY for our evil that WE (in our carnal flesh state) commit.
(since He subjected us to this in the first place, so we would learn.... He is saying, *I* create evil. Taking it on Himself, just as He took our sins on HIS shoulders.)

I see it that way too. Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right? Evil was a critical part of God's plan, and still is. Look at the evil done to Christ. Who did it? Well, the Romans, the Jews, us all, etc. Yet on the most high level, the Bible says that God planned it and did it.

 :goodpost:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #128 on: August 05, 2009, 07:51:54 PM »
I woke up this morning thinking about this.  Right now, I just can't buy the "God turns out the light, so that only leaves darkness because darkness 'just is' without the presence of God".  Beside the thought of "who created those conditions to exist in the first place", i.e., that the absence of light = darkness,  here are some other reasons why;  there are many, many specific scriptures that seem to clearly explain otherwise;  SEEMINGLY to me, showing God's active, direct involvment...His intent, will, and purpose.  Once again, I believe "we're" trying to take God off the hook, when He plainly says He takes responsibility.  DO I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND IT OR CAN EXPLAIN IT?  NOT EVEN CLOSE!  But here are a very few scriptures I found for consideration (whether evil = calamity, trouble, bad, etc., scriptures still say;)

"No evil in this city is without God's will. "(Amos 3:6)

"Out of the most high precedes both evil and good."(Lam. 3:38)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last.  Acts 5:5

Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last.  Acts 5:10

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (Greek: different, other) flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."  Jude 1:7

God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food.  Numbers 11:33

"The Lord smote Benjamin"  Judges 20:35

God calls for a seven year famine.  2 Kings 8:1

I don't see God just "turning off the light", "turning his back", "moving aside to block the sun/Son".... :mshock:
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 09:31:08 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #129 on: August 05, 2009, 07:57:42 PM »
So I personally have to go back to a simple faith here. 

God is good.
Our view is limited.
His ways ARE NOT our ways. (Is. 55:89)  
Everything He does is for a good purpose, even if we don't understand it.
He will make everything work together for our good.
He will redeem His whole creation.
How He goes about it is His business.
We are to humbly walk before our God.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have life aonios.  John 3:16
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 09:33:33 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #130 on: August 05, 2009, 09:31:11 PM »
While researching something, I came across this (what I thought to be) interesting opinion.  From the 'Ancient Hebrew Research Center' - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html

"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).

Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness "And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was." (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.

The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the "bad". The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance." - AHRC

Oh God, You are my God
and I will ever praise You...

I will seek You in the morning
I will learn to walk in Your ways
and STEP BY STEP You'll lead me
and I will follow You all of my days





The lessons can last forever...
but the "bad" does not last forever.

This is the same as someone tried to argue before about there is no evil, it's all in our minds, or how we perceive it. Evil isn't evil, it just is. Just as good is. It's neutral. Yeah, right. Tell that to someone who was just raped.

Is rape going to go on forever? So we'll ALWAYS know the difference between violent, selfish love and selfless tender love?

 :thumbdown:

There is no evil in God.
God is love.

What rushes in when you turn off a light? darkness.
The light itself isn't darkness.



 :thumbsup:

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #131 on: August 05, 2009, 09:33:07 PM »
Trying to understand dear Sparrow, and I really think I'm missing something, not quite tracking.  Are you saying the scripture would then read "I make peace and peace only;  I did not create evil"?  Or something else.  Please help me better understand the specific point of your last post.  Absorbing lots of info today (I'm at work) and probably seeing a little dimly right now.

Jab the scriptures can also read this way

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Which matches up far better to God is love and love worketh no evil.

Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #132 on: August 05, 2009, 09:34:03 PM »
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture.  I've seen it.  What about all the other scriptures above?  And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?   

Why/how did Ananias stop breathing? 

« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 09:39:39 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #133 on: August 05, 2009, 09:39:18 PM »
Not a complete answer. Just some thoughts to start with.

I think the first key is to figure out the correct translation.
Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Form and make: Making something from already existing materials.
Create: Make something out of nothing.

If God is only good then the 'material' is readily availble within Himself. And the availble evil has to be made from none existing materials.
That said (ancient) Hebrew scholars seem to view darkness as the absense of light. So darkness is missing the material called light.
Then if light=love and dark=evil.
Then the 'forming evil' simply means God stops 'injecting light'.
That would mean creating evil is a passive action and cretaing love a active action.
It's even reflected in the universe. A light (sun, stars) consumes massive amounts of energy to shine. When the energy(love/light) is depleted there is darkness (=evil)

I'm already way of track here so lets wrap this up with saying that creating evil perhaps just means cutting of the energy supply?
 :dontknow:


WW here is a post I gave concering this in the other thread were we talked about this.

And it is scriptural

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?  15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.

Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them "I make peace, and create evil".

So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?

Or how does God create evil?

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts. 


Do we not see this same principle brought out here

Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Septuagint

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17

In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present. 

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?

You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?

Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?

God bless

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #134 on: August 05, 2009, 09:43:57 PM »
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture.  I've seen it.  What about all the other scriptures above?  And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?   

Why/how did Ananias stop breathing? 



Jab, I have already explained this over and over, the post I just posted to WW explians it again.

I don't have the time to go through each and every scripture you posted, but I bet it all started out with man being disobedient.

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #135 on: August 05, 2009, 09:51:34 PM »
Quote
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Hi Scott, long time no talk. Good to see you.

Evil in how we in the Western world is how you describe it. But consider some other ways of seeing "evil" especially how it was understood in the archaic world:

Main Entry:   1evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : inferior b : causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : unlucky

--------

The bolded parts do not suggest the "opposite of good." The word "good" is a very nebulous word. It can mean "pleasantness" (but God doesn't always bring that upon man), or it can mean "appropriate to a required purpose" seeing that God created the subtlest beast of the field, yet saw all he created as "good."

Evil is not just immorality. It can be as simple as an experience which is extremely unpleasant which leads to greater good.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #136 on: August 05, 2009, 10:14:38 PM »
Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right?
I still fail to see what's so good about that.
Without evil Jesus wouldn't have to suffer at all; sounds even better to me.
Ok, he rose from the dead. He loved us. Etc
But I really doubt He was having a good time being beaten half to death and then nailed to the cross.
He even asked Father if that cup could pass him by (or something similar)

Gonna leave you at peace now Seth. It almost looks I'm hunting you down today
 :boyheart:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #137 on: August 05, 2009, 10:19:07 PM »
Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right?
I still fail to see what's so good about that.
Without evil Jesus wouldn't have to suffer at all; sounds even better to me.
Ok, he rose from the dead. He loved us. Etc
But I really doubt He was having a good time being beaten half to death and then nailed to the cross.
He even asked Father if that cup could pass him by (or something similar)

Gonna leave you at peace now Seth. It almost looks I'm hunting you down today
 :boyheart:

I guess "good" depends on your perspective (ie what you see as good versus what God sees as good).



pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #138 on: August 05, 2009, 10:19:40 PM »
Quote
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Hi Scott, long time no talk. Good to see you.

Evil in how we in the Western world is how you describe it. But consider some other ways of seeing "evil" especially how it was understood in the archaic world:

Main Entry:   1evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : inferior b : causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : unlucky

--------

The bolded parts do not suggest the "opposite of good." The word "good" is a very nebulous word. It can mean "pleasantness" (but God doesn't always bring that upon man), or it can mean "appropriate to a required purpose" seeing that God created the subtlest beast of the field, yet saw all he created as "good."

Evil is not just immorality. It can be as simple as an experience which is extremely unpleasant which leads to greater good.

He Seth, good to see you again also.

I really don't have much of a problem with that bro, my problem comes in when people say God planned out all the evil in this world and nothing can change His plan. Thus making in effect God the author of sin (because He planned form man to sin) etc.

Myself I beleive God is the master planner and He has a plan for every choice man makes. One ultimate plan, to make man in His image and likeness, but many roads towards that plan because of the choices of man. Thus the strait gate and broad road.

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #139 on: August 05, 2009, 10:22:42 PM »
Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right?
I still fail to see what's so good about that.
Without evil Jesus wouldn't have to suffer at all; sounds even better to me.
Ok, he rose from the dead. He loved us. Etc
But I really doubt He was having a good time being beaten half to death and then nailed to the cross.
He even asked Father if that cup could pass him by (or something similar)

Gonna leave you at peace now Seth. It almost looks I'm hunting you down today
 :boyheart:

I agree ww

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son
, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.


KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.


First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.

In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.

If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.

We see this very principal brought out in

1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.


God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.



And I think the reason God commanded these sacrifices and offerings was so that the people would see what a heinous act it was that they must slay an innocent life for their own sinful ways.

Ezekiel 20:25
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.



Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Why?

Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.

The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.

God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.


Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.

Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 

 Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.

If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?

Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.


Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
 
Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:  6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.

Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in the need of sacrificing His son.

Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?

Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2009, 10:24:48 PM »
I agree with you that the choices of man are what cause evil. In fact I believe that the flesh lusting against the Spirit is what causes men to make choices that cause evil.

What I see, especially in the case of an innocent man murdered by the choices made by men (Christ on the cross) those choices, to carry out an unjustified murder, were part and parcel to God's plan to bring salvation to all.  :HeartThrob:

It isn't that God took PLEASURE in sacrificing His son, but he did see it as a GOOD thing to do for all mankind. That is why we should distinguish what we mean by "good."


« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:27:54 PM by Seth »

Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #141 on: August 05, 2009, 10:33:56 PM »
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture.  I've seen it.  What about all the other scriptures above?  And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?   

Why/how did Ananias stop breathing? 



Jab, I have already explained this over and over, the post I just posted to WW explians it again.

I don't have the time to go through each and every scripture you posted, but I bet it all started out with man being disobedient.
 

You've explained all the verses that show God's direct involvement and Him actively either directly intervening or CAUSING others to carry out His will?  I doubt it, but OK.  The explanation would be your opinion anyway, and we've all got one.  

You and I have a fundamental disagreement on which we then base our subsequent view of much of scripture anyway. 

Let's not argue.  I was addressing others.  I think I have a pretty good idea of many of the things you believe and on what it's primarily based.  You won't convince me, I won't convince you, and that's not our job anyway.  God veils and reveals.

We do agree on the main things...Jesus, Him crucified, rose again, Savior of the world.  

 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:44:44 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #142 on: August 05, 2009, 10:37:15 PM »
If we are to apply "God desires mercy not sacrifice" to Jesus, not to the sacrifices of literal beasts, then are we to understand that Jesus acted AGAINST his father's will in dying for mankind. Did Jesus disobey God by going to the cross?





Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #143 on: August 05, 2009, 10:40:19 PM »
Good point.  God works ALL things according to HIS WILL.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2009, 10:43:54 PM »
If we are to apply "God desires mercy not sacrifice" to Jesus, not to the sacrifices of literal beasts, then are we to understand that Jesus acted AGAINST his father's will in dying for mankind. Did Jesus disobey God by going to the cross?






Do you agree that the shadow shown in the OT is that of Christ?
If so than it should be evident God did not want to sacrifice His son, but because of mans disobedience God did that which He never wanted to do.

Offline jabcat

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #145 on: August 05, 2009, 10:45:14 PM »
Seth and pneuma,  :HeartThrob:.  God's blessings to you, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #146 on: August 05, 2009, 10:48:03 PM »
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture.  I've seen it.  What about all the other scriptures above?  And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?   

Why/how did Ananias stop breathing? 



Jab, I have already explained this over and over, the post I just posted to WW explians it again.

I don't have the time to go through each and every scripture you posted, but I bet it all started out with man being disobedient.
 

You've explained all the verses that show God's direct involvement and Him actively either directly intervening or CAUSING others to carry out His will?  I doubt it, but OK.  The explanation would be your opinion anyway, and we've all got one.  

You and I have a fundamental disagreement on which we then base our subsequent view of much of scripture anyway. 

Let's not argue.  I was addressing others.  I think I have a pretty good idea of many of the things you believe and on what it's primarily based.  You won't convince me, I won't convince you, and that's not our job anyway.  God veils and reveals.

We do agree on the main things...Jesus, Him crucified, rose again, Savior of the world.  

 

Jab I never ment I aswered each scripture you gave directly, but that I answered them indirectly before and in post 133.
And yes we do agree on the salvation of the world.

pneuma

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2009, 10:50:24 PM »
Seth and pneuma,  :HeartThrob:.  God's blessings to you, James.

To you also brother.

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #148 on: August 05, 2009, 11:21:48 PM »
If we are to apply "God desires mercy not sacrifice" to Jesus, not to the sacrifices of literal beasts, then are we to understand that Jesus acted AGAINST his father's will in dying for mankind. Did Jesus disobey God by going to the cross?






Do you agree that the shadow shown in the OT is that of Christ?
If so than it should be evident God did not want to sacrifice His son, but because of mans disobedience God did that which He never wanted to do.

Yes, the shadow is that of Christ.....and yet.....according to the Bible, the shadow is not the VERY thing, so I do not apply ALL statements about the shadow unto the very thing, knowing that they are distinguishable by their natures. For example, if God desires mercy and not sacrifice,

what if I say that Christ's sacrifice was merciful to us (therefore pleasing)
and that the sacrifices contextually associated with the shadows in Hebrews were by their nature NOT merciful to them (and therefore displeasing).

So, we have here a single, one-time sacrifice that was merciful, and sacrifices that mercilessly condemned the conscious. Therein I see how the shadow is not the VERY thing, and how the shadow sacrifices did not please God, but Christ's merciful act was through obedience unto death...

Now do I say that God WANTED Christ to be sacrificed? Depends on whether you say that God took emotional pleasure in it. I don't say that he took emotional pleasure in it. But I do know that Jesus was OBEDIENT unto death, and that His death was conceived of and ordained by God as being the final solution to sin itself.

For through death, we received life. Thank you Father for sending your son to die for me.

Offline Seth

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Re: I make peace, and create evil: NOT ANY MORE.
« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2009, 11:29:10 PM »
Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).

Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?

YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.




« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 11:44:16 PM by Seth »